I'm certainly not disagreeing with you, I have limited WFB and no Xwing experience besides watching a few games on youtube, all I know is that I've started to get that feeling lately. Just the same feeling I'd get in a Risk game where you have a pile of 25 soldiers and dice fail you and you can't manage to conquer those 5 territories you need with one defending soldier each and subsequently lose the game. You do have more control than in WFB on your actions without all these morale and charge and whatnot tests, but on the other hand it seems the maneuvers are quite as simple in both games, be it getting in range with arcs, redirecting a deathstar pack to charge its side, etc.

Guaranteed damage is what you want. Of course, you can also get that with maneuvering, rams using engine techs are quite effective too, enough to have entire lists built around it and threatening to quite a few fleets, and they rely on skills more than luck.

And you're right, it's all about prior games experience. Incidentally, the last two I played made me change my mind and question my wave 2 preorder, because they were heavily tipped on either side of the luck scale. So my take on the topic is that poor deployment can certainly lose you a game, proper orders, activating and maneuvering correctly will certainly work towards achieving victory, but dice are still the biggest deciding factor.

they really aren't

dice are the biggest deciding factor in X-wing thanks to the rather infuriating mechanic of defense dice mucking things up

In Armada, especially given the greater odds of hits per dice, you have to get really unlucky for the dice to win or lose you a game (and if you're rolling with blue dice, you have no excuse)

more often than not, the dice in Armada make a convenient scapegoat when poor positioning leads to poor exchanges, and therefore loses

not that dice mods in this game, or literally every game with dice, aren't important esp if you're fishing for very specific results (crits)

In armada dice rolls have less of an effect than in many other tabletop wargames.

Intended or not, this statement has a very common misunderstanding about dice.

Paradoxically, the more dice you roll, the less 'dice' matter.

Not entirely in my example as they are in sequential order: you don't always roll all the dice. [...] Essentially 7 seperate instances where messing up with bad dice rolling (or good rolling on your opponent's side) will disrupt the sequence regardless of how good you rolled in a prior step. [...]

In any case, my post wasn't about the amount of dice being rolled, it was about the non-existance/rarity of auto hits in most other wargames. My point stands that in Armada you have so many ways to get rerolls or auto-hits with dice, that the luck aspect is greatly reduced compared to other wargames.

I would say that you make my point in your counter-argument. If a bad roll in a second sequence diminishes the effect of a good roll in a prior sequence, then the result averages it out. The question is the breadth of the bell curve on the ultimate result.

In terms of the break roll - you are correct that an outlier result can dramatically skew the game - but that's because you only roll the once (IIRC - it's been a while), and even so you roll a pair of D6s, which also has a central tendency.

You may be right, Dark herald of the Empire, but Lord Tareq's point isn't inherently incorrect.

[...]

As a result, dice in Armada play less of a role in determining a game compared to other systems.

I played Warhammer (both WFB and WH40K) long ago, and I'm not sure that it had that much more being determined by random factors that created more outlier results. It's true that in Armada we have dice insurance - but rolling sequences of dice are also dice insurance. The evade at medium and the concentrate fire token are also of that nature.

I will say that at the time it felt like dice rolls mattered more, because I was less mature and I was more ready to blame the dice for my poor decisions. But, ultimately, that allowed me to allow anger and hatred to flow through me, and to eventually join the Dark Side - so it all worked out in the end.

Of all the strategy games I've played that involved dice, Armada by far has felt most "luck independent".

That said, there are situations I've seen where I or my opponent get really, really screwed over by some super cold dice. It just happens far, far less often in Armada then in other games I've played, and with so many ways of manipulating both the dice and the situations when dice are thrown, it really comes down to player skill more than anything.

Although when you need one damage to put down a fleeing frigate, and four A-wings in a row roll blanks, its hard to put that down as player error.

Although when you need one damage to put down a fleeing frigate, and four A-wings in a row roll blanks, its hard to put that down as player error.

Sullust I had 2 turns from 3 fighters come up all accuracy or crits to opposing squads. That felt pathetic of the highest order. Luckily the other guy's dice were just as limp.

I find one of the biggest things is activation order and sequence.

I find one of the biggest things is activation order and sequence.

I am reminded of this flavor text from MtG I've read a long time ago. I think it went:

"Deployment is the art of putting your troops in the wrong place at the right time."

I dunno...I've had a few games lately that have started terribly, but ended up OK by the end of turn 6. Not great results, mind you, but decent, given horrible starts.

I've deployed poorly, maneuvered badly, had cold dice, etc.

But the game ain't over till it's over. And over means 6 rounds, no more, no less.

So it is possible to come back (sort of) and pull a narrow victory/draw/slight loss out of the rabbit hole.

Yes. I feel the idea of "losing at deployment" is patently defeatist.

Yes. I feel the idea of "losing at deployment" is patently defeatist.

Not necessarily. It is very possible to deploy a three VSD fleet in such a way that they will never see combat but one at a time, for example. If your adversary has deployed such that he can take advantage of this--say by cutting across your flank concentrating the full fire of his fleet on one of your ships while taking only one ship's return fire--then you have lost at deployment, and only equally inept deployment or another major error on your adversary's part will salvage the game for you.

I think there is a distinction to be made between the claim that the game can be lost at deployment and the claim that the game is decided at deployment. The latter is defeatist; the former is realist. You set yourself up for victory at deployment; only a consistently better level of play than your opponent throughout all stages of the game will assure that victory.

Hmm, add in the proviso "If you roll below average and not take down ships, you will 'likely' lose the game" and I think I agree. It's more a comparison to other game systems. After all, Armada is still a dice game, but there's just less instances in play in which dice are required to other aspects of play. The less I have to rely on dice to get something done, the more I feel responsible for the results.

If you had to roll a D6 and get 4+ or more in order to use a command that turn, or in the manoeuvring phase you could roll a D6 and on the roll of a 6+ you could increase your yaw by another click, does that make the importance of dice more significant? Then again, does X-wing place more of an importance on dice than Armada?

-shrugs- maybe it depends on prior games, maybe it depends on how you play now. 'Dunno, but all the peripheral aspects to getting a fleet in position, as well as how you manage your ships in relation to the opponent, seem to have a proportionally greater effect in Armada for me. At least that's been my experience so far. We'll see if Wave 2 changes that. Again, I don't use much for upgrades and I've always liked fighters. Maybe that just makes me the blank of the black die. C'est la vie.

they really aren't

dice are the biggest deciding factor in X-wing thanks to the rather infuriating mechanic of defense dice mucking things up

In Armada, especially given the greater odds of hits per dice, you have to get really unlucky for the dice to win or lose you a game (and if you're rolling with blue dice, you have no excuse)

more often than not, the dice in Armada make a convenient scapegoat when poor positioning leads to poor exchanges, and therefore loses

not that dice mods in this game, or literally every game with dice, aren't important esp if you're fishing for very specific results (crits)

Edit: also this isnt directed to either of these posts in person. I'm sure they know full well enough about dice and etiquette.

This subject has probably been overkilled at this point, but I'm going to over over kill.

A good player has failsafes to prevent a dice roll being absolutely critical. Multiple shots on a focus kill for instance. Extra fighters in the way for a last plink even after missing. Knowing that the odds are completely in his favor for the kill. Adding a blue die with conc fire.

If you're going for crits, make it either highly possible via some mechanic or guaranteed, like Screed.

A good player only hedges what he cannot avoid on dice. The rest is planned, or at least odds-calculated.

YOU ROLLED DICE AND THE ENEMY SHIP DIDNT DIE IS NOT AN EXCUSE.

Play better.

Commenting on the dice. Cool. They happen. I've lost some games to bad dice too.

About Xwing: If you're losing by green dice by Xwing, I'll tell you. Your problem is that you roll green dice. You don't remove your opponent from the board fast enough to substantially reduce your green dice.

I've had a few opponents in Armada and Xwing try and blame the dice. When I see them I give them a strong piece of my mind on how scrub-by that whine is.

Especially if it at all sounds anything like: "I would have won if the dice weren't so bad/good for you."

I will tear into each mistake they made. I will make sure everyone in the area knows how not-fun they are to play against. I will post about how I beat them. And then, I'll beat them. over and over.

Don't ever do this.

Sure, I take it personally. But I also love beating people and knowing very well that I know why I win, without excuses.

...which is why you should not accept defeat, even if you deploy poorly. Accept the fact, then do your best, hope for good dice, wait for the opponent to make mistakes. If you can salvage something, all the more credit to you.

...which is why you should not accept defeat, even if you deploy poorly. Accept the fact, then do your best, hope for good dice, wait for the opponent to make mistakes. If you can salvage something, all the more credit to you

Outside of just catastrophic placement, which unless you're brand new I've never seen, simply slow crawl or go speed 0 until you see the opponents moves. I know that this may not be in the "spirit" of the game, but if you're in a tournament, you've placed poorly, a 5-5 is better than anything else if you have accepted defeat before turn one has even started. Heck you may even take one of their ships out by patiently waiting for your one opening. I don't think bad dice lose games as much as bomb dice win games. If your opponent is rolling 4 unmodified red dice and every time they find a way to roll 5-8 damage that can lose you a game real quick. Truthfully Red dice is what games come down to. If you get into black dice range then you deserved to be hit, blue dice have no misses, but they also have no double damage, but Red dice, being at long range can tear you up if the other player is rolling gangbusters.

When I was an Armada youngling (not too long ago), I clustered all my fighters around Salvation, leaving Yvaris without any snubfighters to speak of. Whoops. Still won 9-1, my opponent drove his Glad off the side of the board and let me point all my Nebs at his VSD's side.

You can put yourself at a huge disadvantage with deployment but I can't quite say you'll lose there - only make the coming turns harder.

This subject has probably been overkilled at this point, but I'm going to over over kill.

Maxim 37: There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "time to reload."

A good player has failsafes to prevent a dice roll being absolutely critical.

Was going to say the same thing. Dice can and will fail you, and so you better plan on it. Failure to kill a ship because of a bad dice roll is really a failure in planning. If you only need 1 hit to kill a ship, then you really need to do something that will allow you a reroll, and have a backup plan just in case.

In X-Wing for example failure to kill a target is quite often a failure to focus fire correctly and not just a matter of bad dice.

But even then yes sometimes the dice will still screw you over, because there's only so many redundancies you can work in, before you start to reduce the effectiveness of the list as a whole.

Especially if it at all sounds anything like: "I would have won if the dice weren't so bad/good for you."

That happened to me at X-Wing Regionals. Last game of the day and I was 3-2, how well I did would decide if I got into the top 16 or not. Was a decent game but the guy complained every time the dice failed him, even offered to sell his collection because 'X-Wing was nothing but a dice game' and 'I'd be on the top table if this was about skill'.

Worse game of X-Wing I ever played, and I was both happy it was over, and the fact that I beat him, because someone with that kinda attitude just makes the game bad for everyone.

I'd just like to make note of the (in my opinion) least dice effected dice game, Star Trek Attack Wing. At a competitive level there's an extremely high chance your match is decided before you even hit the table, much less deployment, movement, or even dice. A well made STAW fleet is already built to provide near perfect damage and near perfect damage mitigation with near perfect maneuvering (or negating the need to maneuver at all). If you can turn all your attack dice into auto hits and negate all your target's defense dice, while simultaneously doing the opposite in return, in a 360 degree arc, the game is either going to be an auto win on your part, or a total draw if your opponent built a fleet on the same level. This is a generalization of course, but it's a big part of why it's such a flawed system.

So I mean at least Armada doesn't work like that.

I play to win, but I don't have to win to play.

I really do feel that the variance on Dice is minimal enough that if you're having issues with 'bad dice' then you're really doing something wrong. Especially with wave 2 there are a lot of ways to modify dice. I'd wager, by a pretty good margin, the two most played commanders in the upcoming store champs season will be: Screed and Ackbar (Vader could easily replace screed by the end of the season...). Adding two dice might as well be modifying two dice, and Screed is obviously dice modification. If you're not playing one of these, you should have a really good reason and/or have other dice modification readily available.

That said: I think the strategy that you attempt to employ at the start of the game has a major impact. What ships are going head on? What ships are flanking? Where are the squads going? Deployment is a large part of that. This is also more important in some scenarios and less important in others.

I've had a few opponents in Armada and Xwing try and blame the dice. When I see them I give them a strong piece of my mind on how scrub-by that whine is.

Especially if it at all sounds anything like: "I would have won if the dice weren't so bad/good for you."

I will tear into each mistake they made. I will make sure everyone in the area knows how not-fun they are to play against. I will post about how I beat them. And then, I'll beat them. over and over.

Don't ever do this.

Sure, I take it personally. But I also love beating people and knowing very well that I know why I win, without excuses.

Dice do have an effect on some games of X-Wing (Armada far less so). If you don't realize this, then you're as bad as you perceive some of your opponents. 'Ripping into their mistakes' often is just codeword for 'you should have guessed better'. There are some players that do put themselves in bad situations and they pay for it, dice don't make it any better, but hindsight is 20/20 and justifying why certain maneuvers, in a game of hidden information, are better is easy after they've occurred. Realizing that there is significant random chance (both in maneuvers and in dice) at certain points in the game IS part of the game. The chance can be controlled in a lot of ways, but the negative consequences rarely go to zero.

There are a lot of players that blame bad dice too much (and often these players just have a perception the dice are off - some quick statistics can generally quiet them), but there are definitely times it's warranted. Sometimes you have to accept that all of the decisions that you made were optimal and the odds weren't in your favor.

On the dice front - In these kind of game systems I always tend to gravitate towards dice-mitigating effects such as rerolls, they can be SO valuable not just because they enhance every roll but because the ability to mitigate those 'all-blank' moments can really help to decide games. You pay the price in fleet points of course.

Skill, setup and dice are all equally important, I feel, and importantly they're not mutually exclusive, they all interact. As it has been mentioned, for example, part of 'skill' is learning to mitigate the inevitable bad dice.

This latest vassal tournament is one where I didn't stick to the principle of 'moar rerollz', I'm going to rely on naked dice and the benefit of non-chance based upgrades like Motti and x17's. It's scary man!