A debate with my armada league around this statement occurred. There were 2 sides, those that feel setup > dice and the opposite.

Which side are you on?

It isn't that binary. Setup vs dice. Setup is a big part of overall strategy, but plenty of builds can compensate. Some can't.

The game CAN be won at setup, but not always.

I've always known if I'm gonna win by the end of turn 1. Set up is very important.

Ninja'd by Steven... I'm on a roll today

Setup definitely trumps dice for the most part. Bad rolls hurt, of course, but not getting to make those rolls at all because your ship was poorly deployed is worse. Still, there are many other important factors (e.g. maneuvering skill, list matchup), so rather than saying "a good setup can win you the game", I'd say "a poor setup will lose you the game".

With the caveat that every once in a blue moon you will not win based solely on dice, by and large setup is the deciding factor 80% of the time. There is variance for poor play after that fact but typically deployment is the big one. Not just in this game, in almost every mini game ever put to print. The only exception I can really think of off the top of my head is Infinity, maybe Malifaux.

However it is certainly possible, with correct play after deployment, to mitigate positional disadvantages and even capitalize on mistakes your opponent makes. In particular with Armada order of activation is huge. It might even be more important (and basic) than dice or deployment. It does no good to constantly activate in such a way that you are always blocking your own shots and flight paths for instance.

Set up can make or break the game. And often commands how the battle will unfold.

Bad dice roles just delay the end results and maybe means you lose a extra ship.

I agree with Skyshuffler but would add that the addition of large ships with large dice pools (and therefore a broader bell curve of possible results) will definitely make some people feel like the game is all about dice. They're wrong, of course, but you'll hear it. You'll also hear me sobbing, if you listen carefully, the first time I roll that 3 or 4 damage on eight ISD dice.

Setup is IMPORTANT, more so for some lists or match-ups, but it doesn't win games on its own.

Big ships don't change that.

Good maneuvering, however... now there is the real secret to successful play.

Setup may not win you the game, but it can sure as hell lose it for you.

Personally, I start fighting my opponent with the first obstacle placement.

EDIT: DODONNAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Games are lost during deployment.

Games are won during execution of the plan you set up for during deployment.

I look at it this way: there is a series of steps you have to achieve in order to win. The first of those is competent deployment. If you deploy well, you can win. If you **** it up on deployment, you better hope your adversary is equally inept, because that's the only way you're gong to win.

Ninja'd! SCREEEEEEEED!!

Setup is indeed greater than dice, but I disagree with the notion that setup alone determines the game. There are just so many factors that can change the flow of the game. For example, I know I've both won and lost games on a single maneuver choice.

As limiting as the maneuver options are in this game, with only the fastest ships able to execute a 90 degree turn in a single turn, having a plan going into deployment is HUGE.

Poor dice rolls can certainly screw someone out of a few points, but how ships are set up determine whether those dice are rolled in the first place.

Setup may not win you the game, but it can sure as hell lose it for you.

Personally, I start fighting my opponent with the first obstacle placement.

This guy says it best. You have to be GOOD at deployment. That is why I love Superior Positions as much as I do.

Good dice and bad dice trump no dice which is what occurs when you deploy wrong. In fact, the game can be lost at your selection of objectives. For instance taking Opening Salvo can be your own undoing as much as bad placement.

Deployment has cost me games, choice of objectives has cost me games, and forgetting command tokens have cost me games.

All in all, this game is difficult and it is never just one reason for the lose but some do overshadow the others

being won or lost at deployment is hardly special for any miniature game that stresses positioning over random luck

even X-wing requires odious amounts of one-sided RNG to overcome sh*tty positioning

Good dice and bad dice trump no dice which is what occurs when you deploy wrong.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Personally, I don't feel this game is as dice dependent as X-Wing is. You have mechanics for offensive re-rolls and ship survivial is no longer a random element, but a resource management game. Your capital ships surviving in this game has a lot more in skill than in random dice luck.

Coming to the topic there are two followup questions to ask: What is the objective, and what are the list compositions? Does a player who has minefields be an automatic winner in setup because they place everything and force the opponent to come to them? What about Superior Positions, will a second player consistently win out over a second in the opinions of others? And so on.

same thing with list composition. A slow-moving heavy fleet list is going to have a harder time dealing with a speedy reactive list, but generally those heavy list can smash the speedster ships easily. Things aren't so one-sided that one list is always winning, especially now that Tractor beams exist and can slow down the speedsters to get them in range.

It seems the majority feel that deployment is key to victory. This has been my bane in this game, that often I feel that I have a plan when I setup only to look at the board at the start of turn 1 and realized that i've lost. I've only won a handful of games in Armada, which I feel only happened because of dice. I barely squeaked by.

Armada is starting to remind me of the time when I "tried" to get better at chess.......not a good feeling. Watching your fleet get slowly dismantled (or sometimes quickly) is only made worse when you see it all coming.

While setup is important, I always found that course of play and player decisions determine who wins and loses. Dice can be random but the right pick of upgrades and commanders usually diminishes the effects.

There doesn't seem to be that many useful articles on set up and counter set ups for the game though. You'd think that would be the hot topic with so many favoring that side of the game.

Personally, I don't feel this game is as dice dependent as X-Wing is. You have mechanics for offensive re-rolls and ship survivial is no longer a random element, but a resource management game. Your capital ships surviving in this game has a lot more in skill than in random dice luck.

Coming to the topic there are two followup questions to ask: What is the objective, and what are the list compositions? Does a player who has minefields be an automatic winner in setup because they place everything and force the opponent to come to them? What about Superior Positions, will a second player consistently win out over a second in the opinions of others? And so on.

same thing with list composition. A slow-moving heavy fleet list is going to have a harder time dealing with a speedy reactive list, but generally those heavy list can smash the speedster ships easily. Things aren't so one-sided that one list is always winning, especially now that Tractor beams exist and can slow down the speedsters to get them in range.

Having tried X-Wing out and finding that people who win are the ones who make their dice more mitigated to succeed I can not agree with you more. I have tried the game out in a casual setting and even a tournament and was just wowed by the simple fact that it is about the dice as much as it is positioning.

In armada this is less so to a degree. You still need the dice but positioning is everything. Since Dice are being rolled as long as you are in range it becomes vital to maximize your positioning.

ya I'm with you on this. I have definitely had some "son of a..." moments after set up that made games very difficult.

Yes, somewhat.

In practice you are trying to impose your strength on your opponents weakness. While that starts at deployment the fun part is it ends either at the end of the 6th turn or when the last dice roll is made to kill the last ship. All that stuff between the end of deployment and the game end is where the fun happens. The ebb and flow of the two players tactics start to edge back the advantages one gained in the deployment or lost in the deployment.

The thing is, when we look at our games from the outside in we see problems and mistakes that caused us to lose the game. Often times in a close game this can be as little as a single tactical error or a single bad run of dice. As such when we look back we see the game was lost in deployment, perhaps as much as because we were out played during deployment and then blow for blow we did as well as our opponent during the in between stuff.

That said, knowing what your fleets strengths are and playing to them helps as you will then deploy in a manner more suited to your fleet.

Deployment is huge in armada and definitely trumps dice. If you have opponents of a similar caliber I wouldn't you as far as saying you can tell whose won at the end of setup, but over the course of a game you can see the tidal wave effect it has on the game.

That's one of the advantages of fighters. They stall deployment of your actual ships and allow better positioning.

ya I'm with you on this. I have definitely had some "son of a..." moments after set up that made games very difficult.

This last one with my 5 Nebulon-B's was the only time it was not glaring

Games are lost during deployment.

Games are won during execution of the plan you set up for during deployment.

I look at it this way: there is a series of steps you have to achieve in order to win. The first of those is competent deployment. If you deploy well, you can win. If you **** it up on deployment, you better hope your adversary is equally inept, because that's the only way you're gong to win.

Ninja'd! SCREEEEEEEED!!

This.

Set up is very big if you have a plan going into the set up you can still mitigate a bad set up. My opponents set up doesn't dictate what my plan is going to be