I have been following all the valid queries brought up so far and many can be cleared up by following the rules literally. When things happen simultaneously, I like the idea of allowing the active player to decide order. 'Start of turn ' 1st, then 'after turn begins' next, but no 'actions' before 'Kingdom Phase' resources, restoring etc. has happened. I think 'mutation' should kill Reiksguard with 1 damage before 'counterstrike' as the latter happens 'after' it defends not as.

The question of specific damage from specific sources and which get 'cancelled' is tricky. At the moment we have to specify specific damage tokens which can get complicated but does work in most cases. What I have trouble with is the difference between 'cancel' and 'redirect'. Warrior Priests is easy as it redirects 'assigned' damage. 'Cancel' must stop 'applied' damage actually reaching its target. Defend the Border states 'redirect damage DONE to capital', which implies the damage actually hits. If that damge Burnt the Zone, or even ended the game for a 2nd Burn, there are no damage tokens to redirect. At present I play that 'redirect' also cancels the damage so it doesn't hit.

Curch of Sigmar also opened a can of worms. Card effects are 'Actions', 'Forced', 'Continuous' and 'traits'. I first had trouble with Festering Nurglings and Shrine to Nurgle, but noticed that 'Forced' cannot be cancelled so you don't have to pay. (Only 1 payment I assume for shrine not each of its victims?) However, Savage Gors continuing +2 damage for 2 developements, Choppas, Mutations etc., should have to pay. (Only once for its effect?) I have not found a 'Traits' problem yet. To solve this complication, at present I make Church of Sigmar effect 'Actions' only. Bloodthirster damage cannot be cancelled, so its specific damage must be noted, but can it be 'redirected' if this doesn't include 'cancel' (See above query)

It just goes to show how difficult it is to write 'foolproof' rules. This game did its best but in trying to keep it quick and simple, plus a few slight word differences, it will have to cover things or different interpretations will arise. Still a good game though, but expect more queries as more expansions come out. All these were from the core set only.

Cheers Richard

Rashley said:

None of the highlighted cards are affected by Church of Sigmar as they do not target any of your units. Well Sadistic Mutation does, but that's a forced effect which you've already covered.

I agree with the "active player" deciding the order of simoultaneous effects/passives. I don't see any reason why we should rule it otherwise.

About Targetting Effects: the fact that the "church" states that "oppos canno target..." implies the "choice to do so"...So, Forced/passive effects have not to be considered for this purpose.

BTW...

I've one more question : rules say that:

"...the attacking player must
assign damage equal to the number of hit points
each defending unit possesses to that unit before any
damage can be assigned to the attacked section on
the defending player’s capital..."

So, let's imagine: my oppo has 2 units with 3hP each. I can assign 4 damage. MAY I assign 2 damage to each unit (even if it seems pointless) in game terms?

I'd say YES, cause in the Tutorial Video that's what happens, but there's a little "statement" in the rules example that's a little bit confusing...

Here it is:

"...He must assign damage equal to each defending unit’s
remaining hit points to that unit before he can assign
any damage to Tom’s capital..."

I know that it may seem a simple stipulation to make players understand that damage cannot be assign "directly" to a zone while there are units defending it...But the wording "each" and the overall meaning seem to poin out that YOU HAVE TO assign ALL assignable damage to each unit...

Maybe it's just I'm dumb, but I wanted to ask.

Thanks.

The best way to understand that sentence is read the part of the sentence after "Before..." first, then read the first half of the sentence. This can be done with most, if not all, English sentences.

I have seen, and agree with, other replies about 'targets' which has cleared up much of Church of Sigmar problems. Very clear and obvious. Only things that actually say 'target' on them will apply unless it is a 'Forced' thing - like Festering Nurglings - which cannot be stopped.

I am still awaiting an official ruling on the specific damage issue ie which unit hits what and which specific damage is cancelled. Any thoughts yet on the difference between cancel and redirecting damage DONE eg Defend the Border.

My thanks to all the very swift responses from everyone. I only wish other companies were as good. I have been waiting over a year for a reply to 3 repeated e-mails about a query in Prophecy. Wake up Z-Man!

Cheers

Richard

About Damage.

Here, we have to apply the same scheme: wording on everything else.

"Cancel" and "Redirect" are 2 distinct mechanics, "even" in the case we exchange the word "redirect" with the sentence "cancel and assign to another target", but this exchange IS NOT POSSIBLE here.

"Redirect" clearly refers a completely different mechanic.

I'll translate it in this way (not officially ruled, but pretty logical): when a damage is going to be "applied", the re-direction kicks in. You're not cancelling a damage. You're just "changing" the target.

"Cancel" is an esplicit word which says "this unit doesn't take this damage".

Now...If a card states "Cannot be canceled" it refers just to the "Cancel" mechanics...Otherwise, we'd see "Cannot be redirected".

Now: if you control 2 different sources...The first Cancels, the second Redirects, the Active Player decides the order, because "I guess" that a damage is redirected at the same time it is assigned (and so, at the same time in which a Damage is Canceled). But in terms of APPLYING damage, the order in which things happen, are often irrelevant, cause in a normal understanding of the timing flowchart, the possibility to play responses are AFTER all damage has been assigned.

If multiple Units "respond" to being put in a discard pile, it happens at THAT time (one step later in the ideal timing flowchart) and that's the moment in which the "destruction order" becomes important.

Hope that made sense.

DB

I guess that's a problem of misunderstanding, more than pure language problems ;-) Maybe I'm really dumb, why not? ;-)

Just Kiddin' (hope so :-))..

Thanks for pointing that out. ;-)

Trust me, you communicate far more effectively in English than I do in any other language. I read the Spanish spoilers for AGoT and have to guess at the grammar and what I know about the game to figure out what it does and how it is supposed to be played. I can't imagine reading a rule book in spanish for a game new to me would be like.

dormouse said:

dormouse said:

Thanks, mate. ;-)

OFF TOPIC MODE: ON

The curious thing is that I prefer games in english (and I'm not alone in my nation)...Not for my knowledge, but because of italian translations...They suck, mate, believe me... ;-)

With CoC and other stuff I had troubles...and that's my language!!!

You had problem with a foreign language, but I had trouble with mine ;-)

So, even if I'm not that precise, I prefer english stuff and english communication...One, because I can improve it...Two, It made me feel less italian than I am... ;-) (I spent some weeks in england and it helped me a lot...It let me understand how I like american-english-movie language. ;-)...And how my country is something like...Crap.

Oh my gosh...I got EMOtional...Please...Kill me. ;-)

OFF TOPIC MODE: OFF

Where were we? Ah, I remember...Blood and evil!!

:-)

chaosvt said:

A cancel always needs a triggering point. Once an effect has been triggered and its effect resolved it is too late to cancel it in any way. If the effect has no point by which a cancel can be used then there is no opportunity. This is just the way it works.

A constant effect that cancels something becomes a fuzzy point without a flowchart... but again a forced effect cannot be canceled so this particular question has been answered. Hopefully the flow chart will give us a better idea how this works (if there is ever a constant effect that would fall under Church of Sigmar's purview which I highly doubt).

why can't a forced effect be cancelled? the church of sigmar card overrides the rulebook as per the golden rule. The timing is complicated though and i agree a flowchart would be very helpful here.

I think we have to understand a couple of things about timing and without a flowchart is not going to happen ;-)

There's NOTHING preventing a FORED from being canceled, except a timing issue (not actual, but possible) where the chance to take response to a Forced is a step later (in this case we'd see the FORCED as a PASSIVE).

But this is a dead end. And I don't see the problem, cause there's nothing canceling a forced right now. Let's wait for the FAQ.

Anyway, I don't get the Chaosvt example of Church of Sigmar apllied on Forced...Sorry, I missed something for sure.

BTW, Church of Sigmar doesn't apply to forced responses, even if it seems. The word "cannot" specifically implies a "choice". Forced effects don't.

Some forced effects have a specific targetting choice, e.g. Festering Nurglings, Sadistic Mutation, Fledgling Chaos Spawn. So theoretically Church of Sigmar or King Kazador would work on these.

However, page 15 of the rulebook states that forced effects cannot be cancelled. Since neither Kazador or the Church states that they can cancel forced effects, they cannot stop them from resolving even if they include the word "target".

chaosvt said:

Because cannot is immutable in LCG's. Cannot means don't even try. The question is whether this precedence is going to be followed.

As to Constant effects, there needs to be a point by which they trigger in order for there to be a cancel opportunity. When you have to conflicting Constants the active player will end up figuring the order of how they are resolved. Without a FAQ we don't no if Constant effects resolve fully or if they create a LIFO chain. So far I believe only actions have been shown to do so but a Constant effects are not actions so may not fall into the same boat.

ChaosChild said:

Yes, they cannot, but they still working. Forced effect is on stack (it cannot be stopped from resolving), if it's owner choose to target King or owner of Church unit, he must pay additional cost, if he don't have enough resources, he cannot choose them, and he must choose other target (for example Nurglings - they can target themselves) If there is no legal target, forced effect is resolvin but with no target (doing nothing).

(sorry for my bad english)

Rashley said:

From rulebook p.14:

• Damage is applied and its effects resolve.
Characters leave play if they are out of hit points.
Burn tokens are placed on the capital if necessary.

So you can redirect damege token from the capital, before it burns.

No need to open a new thread, so here are my doubts. I'd like to discuss them a bit.

Those are REAL game situation occurred yesterday, so I'm pretty sure of what happenens and decisions I describe.

- The Greater Swords (takes 1 Power when a unit enters the same zone). Now, usually we have self-responses to coming into play (enter the zone in our language) effect...In this example, The GreaterSwords's response to enters this zone would add a power to themselves...because, otherwise, we'd have seen something like: "when ANOTHER unit..." etc.

So, the question is: Would you rule it this way? I ask because I did, and I'd like to know what you think.

- Sadistic Mutation (after unit deals damage in combat, deal 1 damage to target unit or capital). Now, the game situation is pretty simple: we have it attached to a Unit with 1HP. It's declared as attacker/defender and gets combat damage. It's destroyed...The question is: does this effect trigger anyway? I mean...For the effect to trigger, the card has to be in play and if we follow the rules, a Unit is immediately destroyed when gets damage...In this case we have a Forced that would trigger...

I ruled that YES, it TRIGGERS, because damage is dealt and "at that time", the FORCED triggered, becoming part of the chain effect.

How'd you rule that?

- Warpstone Meteor . Pretty simple doubt here. Someone pointed out that you CANNOT choose to take 1 damage if you CAN corrupt a unit. Usually, we find the word " either " when a card implies a choice. I ruled it in this way: if you have a Unit to be corrupted, you HAVE to corrput it. If you don't have it, you deal 1 damage.

What do you think?

I'm trying to remember a couple of other game issues...I'll ask to my play-mates and tell you later

Cheers

I've thus far gone the other way with the Greatswords (no self-bonus) and seems dormouse forgot to ask about it, though he did clear quite a few loose ends, otherwise I would agree with your other rulings. After having done a Power Icon count, it probably wouldn't break Empire if Greatswords got +1 Power from themselves.

In case someone was curious (quoting myself from BGG):

"Found myself with a spare time and nothing to do, so on a whim decided to count the Power icons on Units in the Core Set:

Chaos: 33
Dwarves: 28
Empire: 23
Orcs: 28

Now, this is the raw stats, just what's printed on the Unit card, not taking into consideration any from card text, attachements, supports cards, etc., but does seem to indicate what I've noticed, that Empire seems to lack punch in general. Of course, overall strength of a faction is more than just Power icons, but they do offer a point of interest. "

DB_Cooper said:

Great Swords : it refers to another creatures, not to themselves. They first come into play, than their ability can trigger (becouse, ability of card can trigger only if card IS IN the game, not while it comes in to play), but it is to late, they are already in play, so it cannot trigger for them.

Sadistic Mutation : agree, first damage is applied -> so unit done damage -> effect triggers -> then unit leave play. There is no space for player in this process, but for effect of mutation - it is, this effect is waiting for that specific moment.

Warpstone Meteor: agree, we must corrupt if we can,

At first, thanks to both, guys

But I think the "The Greatswords" issue is not going to end for me...I'm not convinced...I'm not convinced from my version, neither from yours..:I don't feel sure about it.

The thing is...AGOT example: "Castellan of the Rock: After you play a L character or location choose and kneel (TAP) a character without attachment. Now, it's known that he triggers himself.

I KNOW that WE CAN'T use other games rules to understand this game, but that's about card game lore/wisdom. A CARD text is ACTIVE in the same time it comes into play ("trigger" is another stuff, I'm talkin' in general). Now, the reason why I insist (but I'm still not so sure) is that there's no reason for this card to work differently from other...

There's no "ANOTHER unit". There's "A unit".

Anyway, your points are OK and that's because we're here talkin' about it...

We do really need the faq.

after some thinking.. you might be right.

we need faq, but until it comes, i will play the same way as you : )

don't know if anyone said something about Bloodthirster, do you agree, that his ability refers to all damage in the game? (I think - Yes)

I'm pretty sure about The Greatswords ability, now

Anyway, let's see that badass... BloodThirster.

The statement on that card is an "everlasting" effects, continously affecting the game: there's no start/end (thus, no trigger) and that's absolute.

"Damage cannot be cancelled". There's no stipulation allowing us thinkin' otherwise.

Anyway, just a hint: in FFG games, even if sometimes we find unclear rules issues (due to the fact that "user friendly" rules sometimes means "incomplete rules"), what you READ is what really matters.

There are no "under-meanings" or non written stuff. Read = Know what happens.

So, in this case: if Bloodthirster's everlasting effect implied something different, you'd have read something like: "Damage dealt by Bloodthirster cannot be canceled".

That's it.

P.S. I love this game. Too much.

Do passive effects like "Temple of Shallya" Stack for controlling multiple copies?