Hi,

Some of our characters are now using the Enhance Control upgrade that increases the Brawn characteristic.

Following a discussion thread here we are now allowing multiple commits. That is, commiting 2 dice

increases Brawl by 2. I've also found that the increase in Brawl should also increase the Soak threshold.

It has become so useful that every PC in the group has taken Enhance up to that upgrade (30 XPs).

However, if this is done, I think that the Force Protection Talent from the Protector tree is clearly underpowered

in comparison (at 30 XPs both levels). Its only effect is to provide Soak, and the force user has to spend a strain

point each round the Force dice are commited.

Am I missing something here?

Best regards,

Loran

Doesn't Brawn increase soak, not Brawl?

I'm sure loranknight mistyped is all (30xp gets you to the point where you can increase Brawn , after all).

The only disadvantage I can see with Enhance compared to Force Protection is that committing a Force Die to Enhance is an Action, whereas doing the same for FP is a manoeuvre (so you could still attack afterwards). Of course if you do it when you see combat is coming (rather than after things have kicked off) this means nothing.

I think loranknight mistyped is all (30xp gets you to the point where you can increase Brawn ).

There may be a couple of disadvantages with Enhance compared to Force Protection:

1) Committing a Force Die to Enhance is an Action, whereas doing the same for FP is a manoeuvre, so you could still attack afterwards. (Of course if you do it when you see combat is coming, rather than after things have kicked off this means nothing.)

2) I'm not sure but can't you only commit one die per Action with Enhance?

EDIT: really not sure about my second point, there. Anyone know?

For point #2, there are certain Force powers that specify in the language on the power tree that only one Force die can be committed, and others that lack that language. Enhance lacks that language. It also doesn't say that you can commit multiple Force dice if the language isn't present. So... by RAW, you can commit multiple Force dice, but maybe each one takes one Action?

And actually, for point #1, I can't find where it says that committing a Force die is an Action anywhere in the book. It does say that, if the Force power requires an Action, then committing is an Action, but it doesn't say what to do with powers like Enhance, where it's usually a Force die added to a different check.

For point #2, there are certain Force powers that specify in the language on the power tree that only one Force die can be committed, and others that lack that language. Enhance lacks that language. It also doesn't say that you can commit multiple Force dice if the language isn't present. So... by RAW, you can commit multiple Force dice, but maybe each one takes one Action?

And actually, for point #1, I can't find where it says that committing a Force die is an Action anywhere in the book. It does say that, if the Force power requires an Action, then committing is an Action, but it doesn't say what to do with powers like Enhance, where it's usually a Force die added to a different check.

You're right, of course. My query had me searching the developer answered questions. (Hence my radical re-edit of my original post.)

Committing multiple dice:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/?p=1797258

Sam's response makes it sound like you can commit as many dice as you like for 1 Action.

I'm sure it usually is an Action to commit...

(****. I can't find where it says so.)

I think loranknight mistyped is all (30xp gets you to the point where you can increase Brawn ).

There may be a couple of disadvantages with Enhance compared to Force Protection:

1) Committing a Force Die to Enhance is an Action, whereas doing the same for FP is a manoeuvre, so you could still attack afterwards. (Of course if you do it when you see combat is coming, rather than after things have kicked off this means nothing.)

2) I'm not sure but can't you only commit one die per Action with Enhance?

EDIT: really not sure about my second point, there. Anyone know?

For point #2, there are certain Force powers that specify in the language on the power tree that only one Force die can be committed, and others that lack that language. Enhance lacks that language. It also doesn't say that you can commit multiple Force dice if the language isn't present. So... by RAW, you can commit multiple Force dice, but maybe each one takes one Action?

Are you saying that, if the power says something like "Commit [Force Die]:" you can do it multiple times?

If so, can you explain how the two ongoing effect Control upgrades of Sense work? Why would someone bother to buy into the second one upgrade if they can just use the first one twice?

Are you saying that, if the power says something like "Commit [Force Die]:" you can do it multiple times?

If so, can you explain how the two ongoing effect Control upgrades of Sense work? Why would someone bother to buy into the second one upgrade if they can just use the first one twice?

No not multiple times just the number of dice to increase the effect.

Sorry for the mispelling... the question has to do with the Brawn-increasing Control upgrade that seems

overpowered compared to the Force Protection talent.

Concerning activation, as we play it, we can have powers committed between encounters, so it is

another advantage of Enhance vs Force Protection.

So basically, unless there is something that prevents a player from taking the Enhance Power,

the FP talent is not really going to be of much use at it is now.

As for the Sense upgrades that commit dice, if I recall correctly they

were given the "can only be activated once" tag in the final release of F&D.

I think the core books discourage leaving dice committed indefinitely (GM can inflict strain or reduce strain threshold or something).

If leaving stuff "on" isn't causing trouble for your group you should keep doing it, of course.

I don't think committing dice is an action. There's no mention of it and thematically it doesn't make sense. If you need the Force to help you do something you typically don't have an action to spend before it happens.

"Use the Force Luke!"

"I can't Obi-Wan! I keep using that action to pilot the ship!"

To me assigning would be an incidental. You're doing it with another action in the case of Enhance or passively assign while doing something else in the case of Sense defence.

"Use your knees, Luke!"

I think loranknight mistyped is all (30xp gets you to the point where you can increase Brawn ).

There may be a couple of disadvantages with Enhance compared to Force Protection:

1) Committing a Force Die to Enhance is an Action, whereas doing the same for FP is a manoeuvre, so you could still attack afterwards. (Of course if you do it when you see combat is coming, rather than after things have kicked off this means nothing.)

2) I'm not sure but can't you only commit one die per Action with Enhance?

EDIT: really not sure about my second point, there. Anyone know?

For point #2, there are certain Force powers that specify in the language on the power tree that only one Force die can be committed, and others that lack that language. Enhance lacks that language. It also doesn't say that you can commit multiple Force dice if the language isn't present. So... by RAW, you can commit multiple Force dice, but maybe each one takes one Action?

Are you saying that, if the power says something like "Commit [Force Die]:" you can do it multiple times?

If so, can you explain how the two ongoing effect Control upgrades of Sense work? Why would someone bother to buy into the second one upgrade if they can just use the first one twice?

To keep more dices for other powers?

I don't think committing dice is an action. There's no mention of it and thematically it doesn't make sense. If you need the Forve to help you do something you typically don't have an action to spend before it happens.

"Use the Force Luke!"

"I can't Obi-Wan! I keep using that action to pilot the ship!"

To me assigning would be an incidental. You're doing it with another action in the case of Enhance or passively assign while doing something else in the case of Sense defence.

Commiting dice in a force power is an action. I dont have my book with me but it is certainly writen in the Force chapter.

I alway thought piloting a ship was the maneuver fly/drive

So perhaps we need to confirm that Enhance Brawn actually should be increasing your Soak. It may be that it's not intended to do so, thus making Force Protection a Unique ability, and giving it value.

Concerning activation, as we play it, we can have powers committed between encounters, so it is

another advantage of Enhance vs Force Protection.

It's your game but I find this kind of meta gaming a bit off especially for Force Users within the SW universe. Keeping a Force Power like Enhance or Force Protection "always on" is a bit paranoid and not very Light Side. I'm not against it in certian situations but all the time I'd start giving Conflict pretty liberally.

So perhaps we need to confirm that Enhance Brawn actually should be increasing your Soak. It may be that it's not intended to do so, thus making Force Protection a Unique ability, and giving it value.

Someone else can find it but this was confirmed by Sam S.

i think only dedication gives more soak, if used on brawn. like how a cyber-arm don't give more soak

Looking at the text for the Enhance Control Upgrade: Increase Brawn, I'd say that it would increase the user's Soak value.

Of course, the trade-off is that it takes your Action that turn, as "using the power requires one action in structured time." (pg282, second column, bold type). It's also more of an XP investment to reach that Control Upgrade, where Force Protection doesn't require quite nearly as much XP for the first rank (15 XP, 5 of which nets your a rank in Toughened), only needs a Maneuver to trigger, but costs 1 strain per Force die committed.

That strain cost is every turn as well, so it's super expensive to keep it going. I wonder if we will see an "Improved Force Protection" that reduces strain cost or doubles the soak increase.

The maneuver thing is handy if your in a tight situation and need a sudden boost. But, putting on my minmax hat for a moment, the total cost of both Force Protection Talents is 30xp, the same cost as the Enhace with the Brawn upgrade acquired, and you don't have to get either Tallent to build out the Talent tree. So it's odd and unlikely you're going to develop a character out of that Talent. Where as Enhance is so flexible in its uses, including boosting your Brawn dice pool if that's what your using.

Personally though if I want to reduce the damage taken its 40xp into Sense to have Adversary 2 twice per round for each Force Dice committed. That's going to get the most bang for your buck, let's be honest a failure is better than 1 soak. Then combined with reflect/parry there is a lot a Guardian can do to reduce the damage taken.

Does your Wound Threshold also increase with the increase of Brawn? I'm assuming it does so there is another reason to use Enhance...

I'm confused by the existence of this Tallent now, it seems like a small design error the more I think about it.

I've seen no wording that would indicate you can stack the same ability that requires force dice to be committed. There is even a paragraph that suggests if it is not stated you can then there is no point stacking. pg 281:

"For convenience, however, most basic uses and upgrades have clarifying text indicating whether or not they can be activated multiple times as part of a single use of their Force power. Some basic uses and upgrades may not have this clarifying text because they are passive upgrades or because their specific effect would not change due to additional activations."

I would not allow the brawn or agility upgrades to be used more than once.

Are you saying that, if the power says something like "Commit [Force Die]:" you can do it multiple times?

If so, can you explain how the two ongoing effect Control upgrades of Sense work? Why would someone bother to buy into the second one upgrade if they can just use the first one twice?

They are two very different upgrades, the first ups defense the second ups attack.

I don't think committing dice is an action. There's no mention of it and thematically it doesn't make sense. If you need the Forve to help you do something you typically don't have an action to spend before it happens.

"Use the Force Luke!"
"I can't Obi-Wan! I keep using that action to pilot the ship!"

To me assigning would be an incidental. You're doing it with another action in the case of Enhance or passively assign while doing something else in the case of Sense defence.

That is clearly rolling force dice to enhance a piloting(space) check which requires no extra action and gives you more bang than committing a dice for agility would.

Committing dice mid battle is an action, it's part of the trade off. It's an incidental to free up your committed force dice for a strong use of the move power, however it will take actions to re-commit them later in the same battle.

i think only dedication gives more soak, if used on brawn. like how a cyber-arm don't give more soak

Where is this rule in FaD? I can't find it. As far as I can tell soak is calculated off currant brawn plus other sources no exception for where the brawn comes from.

Concerning activation, as we play it, we can have powers committed between encounters, so it is

another advantage of Enhance vs Force Protection.

It's your game but I find this kind of meta gaming a bit off especially for Force Users within the SW universe. Keeping a Force Power like Enhance or Force Protection "always on" is a bit paranoid and not very Light Side. I'm not against it in certian situations but all the time I'd start giving Conflict pretty liberally.

The core rules suggest that the GM not allow Strain recovery between scenes if Force die remain committed. It's a suggestion, but a good one in my opinion.

I don't think committing dice is an action. There's no mention of it and thematically it doesn't make sense. If you need the Force to help you do something you typically don't have an action to spend before it happens.

"Use the Force Luke!"

"I can't Obi-Wan! I keep using that action to pilot the ship!"

To me assigning would be an incidental. You're doing it with another action in the case of Enhance or passively assign while doing something else in the case of Sense defence.

you assign it before you get into combat. You only have to use the pilot action when you move the ship to someplace specific.

krosanreaper,

As far as dedicating multiple Force dice to an ongoing effect, the ones that are limited will include the text "cannot be activated more than once," such as is the case with the Sense Control Upgrades to upgrade enemy attack difficulties and combat checks.

Richardbuxton,

As to the viability of Force Protection vs. Enhance... that can vary from player to player. I had a player in a FaD Beta campaign that made pretty good use of Force Protection to shake off damage, often spending the Advantage she generated on combat checks to offset the strain cost. For her, the Enhance power had no real appeal since she wasn't a close-quarters combatant (preferred using a heavy blaster pistol in combat over anything else) and she needed her XP for the Heal/Harm power instead.

I don't think committing dice is an action. There's no mention of it and thematically it doesn't make sense. If you need the Force to help you do something you typically don't have an action to spend before it happens.

"Use the Force Luke!"

"I can't Obi-Wan! I keep using that action to pilot the ship!"

To me assigning would be an incidental. You're doing it with another action in the case of Enhance or passively assign while doing something else in the case of Sense defence.

you assign it before you get into combat. You only have to use the pilot action when you move the ship to someplace specific.

It's not even an action; Fly/Drive is a pilot-only manoeuvre.

Thanks you very much for the contributions!

So, to summarize, the standard rules would be,

1. We are using the Enhance Control upgrade (Brawn) correctly by allowing multiple commits and increasing not only Brawn, but also Soak,

Encumbrance Threshold and even allowing the use of Cumbersome equipment. Wound Threshold is however unaffected by changes in Brawn.

2. The Enhance Control upgrade activation requires an action to commit either one or more Force dice at a time. This counts as a single activation.

3. Dice shouldn't stay committed between encounters, that's explicitly discouraged in the book. Suggestion is to forbid strain recovery while

dice remain commited.

4. Force Protection is a Protector-specific talent that increases Soak by 1 for each committed force dice, limited by the levels in the talent.

It is activated using a Maneuver and consumes 1 Strain/round while dice stay committed.

5. While Enhance seems way more flexible, Force Protection has some advantages: it is activated using a Maneuver and also it is

not limited. Enhance has the limitation of being unable to raise Brawn beyond 6.

Obviously it may be argued that Enhance is generally useful for every force user. However, I would like to make them both useful

for our campaign character. My current thoughts are either giving the Protector speciality a Force Protection talent that has different effects,

or maybe I'd change the Enhance power description so it adds to Brawn-related dice pools but not derived attributes. But that would be a different

thread.