Below I offer a reasoned-cased for why Star Wars Armada squadron stands are indeed just three fighters. NOTE: This is meant to be a bit of good fun, of course, and everyone should enjoy whatever abstract interpretation of the game pieces that they find most enjoyable or reasonable.

In the Star Wars lore, we have varying perspectives on the composition of squadrons:

The movies almost universally refer to 'groups' anyways (Gold Group, Green Group, Red Group, etc. during the Battle of Endor). In military terms, 'groups' are much more fluid and ambiguous than squadrons, typically, and tend to designate assignments for a particular battle/mission. "Green Group" may have been one hundred fighters, for all we know, comprised from dozens of squadrons. On screen, also, it's clear that the "groups" are not uniform. We routinely see A-Wing/Y-Wings/X-Wings flying as wingmen, and multiple times after we see a non-X-Wing shoot down a TIE we hear Wedge say something like "Nice shot, Red 2!" Now, maybe we're just seeing the chaos of battle and Wedge's comment isn't meant as a response to what we just saw, but it's pretty clear that during filming the groups were organizations of multiple fighter types. We even hear Lando say "Red Group, Gold Group: all fighters follow me!" when the shield is taken down, and then we see a collection of A-Wings, X-Wings, and even a Y-Wing, accompany the Falcon fly into the Death Star's superstructure. We know Wedge is Red Group Leader, so it makes sense he responds and is present. Of course, non-movie sources have since flushed out all of the pilots in the run, and we know those A-Wings and Y-Wings belonged to Green Group and Gray Group respectively, so clearly Lando's on-screen command is retconned in order to establish a lore wherein squadrons are uniformly composed of the same ship types, generally speaking (presumably Lando's gold group was not a group of YT-series freighers). In the Battle of Yavin, we know there are "thirty enemy snubfighters" present, and the highest call sign we here during role is "Red 10" standing by. Some take this to mean Red Group and Gold Group each had fifteen fighters, other sources say that Red Group was twenty fighters and Gold Group was ten fighters.

Still other sources, like the X-Wing PC game, suggest that non-screen squadrons were also present at the Battle of Yavin (Blue Group) accounting for some of those thirty fighters. Speaking of the X-Wing PC games, missions very rarely featured a full squadron of fighters. Usually, each small-scale skirmish mission would feature just a few fighters, sometimes broken into two or three groups of just two ships each, but still each using the color labels as group identifiers.

In the X-Wing novels--probably the best EU source out there regarding squadron sizes, and based on the popular Rogue Squadron comic series--Rogue Squadron is twelve fighters, broken into three four-ship groups and each group features two wingmen pairs. Wraith Squardon is also composed the same way, and its reasonable to assume that most of the Rebel squadrons would use a similar structure. That being said, in a lot of the missions, only portions of Rogue Squadron are deployed, so you often don't have all twelve fighters present during an actual engagement, and when we do have the whole squad the flights and units are often acting independently on different tasks.

So, not much help there...which means it's up to each player to make a subjective decision on what sizes/sources/composition rules they like best for squadrons in Star Wars.

So here's why I like to think each stand actually does represent only three fighters in Armada, but of course to each their own:

(1) Hero-Pilots: We know that well-piloted snubfighters, even in very small groups, can have heroic effects in a Star Wars space battle. One group of three TIEs shot down two attack runs, and almost a third. One group of three X-Wings blew up the Death Star. A handful of Naboo fighters take on a fleet of droid fighters and bring down a command ship. A pair of A-Wings help knock out the Executor's bridge deflector shield generator. It's not unreasonable to assume that only three fighters can have a meaningful impact on the board.

(2) Scope: IF we were to assume that each stand = 1 squadron = "12-ish" fighters, THEN this would mean that the entirety of the Rebel Fleet at Endor had only five fighter-stands present (Gold Group, Red Group, Green Group, Gray Group, Blue Group). Which means any Armada battle where you have five (or more) squadrons present you're not fielding fighters in equal or greater volumes than the Rebel Fleet at Endor, and that is silly. If we assume each stand represents 3 fighters, and each group/squadron is at least 10+ fighters, then to properly represent the Rebel Fleet at Endor you'd need at least twenty fighter squardons in Armada, and that feels a lot more correct to me and means that Armada 400pt battles aren't going to very often approach Battle of Endor operation scale. It also means fleets with eight A-Wing Squadrons are fielding 24 fighters--or roughly two complete squadrons of A-Wings--instead of an incredible 100 or so fighters.

(3) Granularity: On screen, and in the books/comics, and in the video/PC games we always see small groups of fighters from each squadron or unit doing things largely independently. If I assume that my four X-Wing Armada stands represents twelve total fighters, or Rogue Squadron, it makes more sense to me. For one, regarding scope, I've got an X-Wing squadron helping my fleet, not four entire squadrons (which outstrips every battle in Star Wars lore except for the Battle of Endor). It also means, like the books/vid-games I can have elements from the squadron flying around. Maybe I keep them bunched up, or maybe I split them between tasks. Depends on the context. I can also have Wedge and Luke both present as members of the same squadron, instead of as separate squadrons. I like this because we know Wedge and Luke have always been in the same squadron--Red Squadron during Yavin and Rogue Squadron post-Yavin until Luke retires from dog-fighting and passes Rogue Squadron to Wedge).

(3a) Granularity (OFFENSE): I can't really see one stand in Armada being 12-ish ships and having such little impact against capital ships. We know small groupings of fighters can have big effects in battle. RotJ originally called for scenes with the B-Wings of Blue Squadron heavy-bombing Star Destroyers, and it's been established that Blue Squadron's bombing efforts crippled two star destroyers during the Battle of Endor. There's no way one stand of Armada fighters could even worry a Capital ship, let alone an ISD. At best, they land three damage with a perfect roll and the ship can shrug it off with a Repair action. But four stands of B-Wings could more conceivably bring down multiple capital ships, so again I prefer 1 Stand = 3 Fighters.

(3b) Granularity (DEFENSE): I like to imagine each time a stand is destroyed, three fighters have been vaporized or damaged beyond function. If I'm fielding four TIE Bombers (4x3 = 12, Full "squadron") then when one stand is destroyed my Omega Squadron is down to 75% strength. Then 50%...etc. It's not all or nothing. I also simply cannot imagine one YT-1300, YT-2400, or Firespray one-shotting about a dozen ships, but I can totally see them doing it to about three ships (indeed, we see Lando, with the help of his gunners Cracken and Blount, pop three TIE Interceptors in about a ten second window during the Battle of Endor. So, again, three fighters feels more accurate to me and allows for the R&V ships to each represent one freighter on their stand more readily.

(4) It Suits My Collection: Like many, I suspect, I bought two of each squadron pack. So, that gives four stands of all the fighter variants. If we assume each stand is three fighters, it's not like I've got one 12 fighter squadron of A-Wings, Y-Wings, B-Wings, TIE Bombers, etc. ready to be deployed if I want. Maybe I bring four X-Wings to my battle, and I imagine Rogue Squadron is flying all X-Wings. Or maybe I bring two X-Wings and two Y-Wings, and now I imagine half of the twelve man Rogue Squadron is flying X-Wings while half flies Y-Wings (we certainly see ship-switching assignments happen during the video games to suit the mission at hand).

(5) Small Numbers aren't a Problem: In many of the books and video-games, we see entire missions featuring just half a dozen fighters or less assigned to particular tasks during that engagement. It's not weird for me to imagine that, if I've only fielded two A-Wings, that there really are only six fighters there. In fact, that suits most of the skirmishes and engagements we see off screen, and even during the Battle of Hoth Rogue Squadron only fielded somewhere between 4-6 snowspeeders during the battle.




So, that's why I see Armada stands as three fighters. You certainly don't have to, though!

Oh I was hoping we could make this unnecessary fight spill over into two separate threads. Hooray!

This makes me want to run facefirst into a brick wall.

Oh I was hoping we could make this unnecessary fight spill over into two separate threads. Hooray!

I know, right? I should start another thread talking about why I disagree with the OP! Threads for the Thread God! Posts for the Post Throne!

[/silliness]

Oh I was hoping we could make this unnecessary fight spill over into two separate threads. Hooray!

I know, right? I should start another thread talking about why I disagree with the OP! Threads for the Thread God! Posts for the Post Throne!

[/silliness]

Please do! We can dilute the 94% of threads that are complaining / speculating / whining / celebrating / pants-pissing about Wave 2 release dates and Wave 3 content!

I just hadn't seen anyone ever offer reasons for why Armada stands might be only three fighters (beyond "LOOK! THERE'S THREE!"), and it's clearly a fun silly topic people seem to enjoy discussing.

That was an exceedingly well thought out argument, delivered in a friendly, non-confrontational manner.

Well done sir.

I eagerly await the almost inevitable Nerd Rage your topic will attract, with fingers steepled and a malevolent grin I shall watch my screen expectantly.

to cross universes here"your logic is sound" seriously agree with every point you made. Even the ones eluding to how silly this whole discussion is and in truth we are all just sitting here desperately and embarrassingly wanting for wave two.

This.... Actually....makes sense!

This.... Actually....makes sense!

Whooooo, that puts the base price for a ISD 2@ 328 points with out aces.

Whooooo, that puts the base price for a ISD 2@ 328 points with out aces.

Why would it ever scramble its entire complement of fighters (assuming we even accept the absurdly high value of 76 fighters aboard)?

Vader was OBSESSED about catching the Falcon post-Hoth, and had three star destroyers chasing it. They launched a total of four TIE fighters after it. When they began their bombing runs of the asteroid they knew Han disappeared over, they look to have scrambled very few TIEs. In defense of the Death Star, they launched only Vader's Black Squadron, which most accounts put at eight TIE Fighters, possibly twelve. Why not just launch a bazillion TIEs and crush the thirty snubfighters?

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

Whooooo, that puts the base price for a ISD 2@ 328 points with out aces.

Why would it ever scramble its entire complement of fighters (assuming we even accept the absurdly high value of 76 fighters aboard)?

Vader was OBSESSED about catching the Falcon post-Hoth, and had three star destroyers chasing it. They launched a total of four TIE fighters after it. When they began their bombing runs of the asteroid they knew Han disappeared over, they look to have scrambled very few TIEs. In defense of the Death Star, they launched only Vader's Black Squadron, which most accounts put at eight TIE Fighters, possibly twelve. Why not just launch a bazillion TIEs and crush the thirty snubfighters?

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

I seem to recall Lando calling the groups Wings in the first part of the battle of Endor

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

Not every one, but ok.

Thank you ALLWINGSSTANDINGBY that is definitely one of the most enjoyable posts I have read in a long time. Although who couldn't go for some more Gorge of Peril misquotes?

Whooooo, that puts the base price for a ISD 2@ 328 points with out aces.

Yea it changes a little bit when you start thinking about the 5 or so squadrons every isd has

Whooooo, that puts the base price for a ISD 2@ 328 points with out aces.

Why would it ever scramble its entire complement of fighters (assuming we even accept the absurdly high value of 76 fighters aboard)?

Vader was OBSESSED about catching the Falcon post-Hoth, and had three star destroyers chasing it. They launched a total of four TIE fighters after it. When they began their bombing runs of the asteroid they knew Han disappeared over, they look to have scrambled very few TIEs. In defense of the Death Star, they launched only Vader's Black Squadron, which most accounts put at eight TIE Fighters, possibly twelve. Why not just launch a bazillion TIEs and crush the thirty snubfighters?

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

So, if traitors like Tarkin refuse to use the resources Emperor Palpatine has so generously given us, do not take that as an indication that they do not exist.

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

Not every one, but ok.

Pretty much everyone I can think of, including every on-screen space battle in the Star Wars movies, every single mission I ever flew in X-Wing, TIE FIghter, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, X-Wing Alliance, and the Rogue Squadron console series, plus all of the dozen X-Wing novels and the Rogue Squadron comic books.

Outside of the battles of Endor and Coruscant (RotS), I can't think of a single instance in those sources where there is anything close to seventy-six TIE Fighters (let alone seventy-six total fighters) engaged in combat, and in RotS/RotJ there are dozens and dozens of capitals fighting so that number of fighters is more plausible. So, even though dozens and dozens of those skirmishes and battles feature at least one star destroyer, we're supposed to believe that none of those star destroyers ever launched anything even remotely close to their complement of TIEs during those battles?

Even during the escape from Hoth, the number of Star Destroyers chasing Han = 3 while the numbers of TIEs chasing him = 4. Why didn't they just send 228 TIE Fighters after the Falcon? Sure, some of their TIEs had to be tied up elsewhere, but 224 of their TIEs otherwise engaged and unable to assist in the pursuit of a ship worthy of three ISDs in pursuit?

I'm not saying that Star Destroyers couldn't physically squeeze 76 TIEs aboard, or that modern day carriers vastly smaller can't carry that many fighters, I'm just saying that there's nothing in the lore that makes me accept that star destroyers are carrying so many fighters. If they are, the Empire are goonish buffons for only ever utilizing minuscule fractions of their total fighters available (at least per: movies, books, comics, video games).

I stopped reading because you are, frankly, needlessly verbose.

The X Wing series features more than one battle with many, many squadrons. They don't always focus the action on many many fighters because it really only matters what Wedge and Corran were doing.

For most of the Wraith books the Mon Remonda had 4 squadrons (A, Y, X, X) that's a huge investment in squadrons for one ship, considering that amounts to almost double the value of TIEs.

That's 16 squadrons of Armada fighters for one ship.

People can believe each ISD carries 76 TIE Fighters, for sure, but it makes every single on screen, in-book, and video-game representation of space combat in Star Wars make no sense because we never see anything close to that amount scrambled in engagements.

Not every one, but ok.

Pretty much everyone I can think of, including every on-screen space battle in the Star Wars movies, every single mission I ever flew in X-Wing, TIE FIghter, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, X-Wing Alliance, and the Rogue Squadron console series, plus all of the dozen X-Wing novels and the Rogue Squadron comic books.

Outside of the battles of Endor and Coruscant (RotS), I can't think of a single instance in those sources where there is anything close to seventy-six TIE Fighters (let alone seventy-six total fighters) engaged in combat, and in RotS/RotJ there are dozens and dozens of capitals fighting so that number of fighters is more plausible. So, even though dozens and dozens of those skirmishes and battles feature at least one star destroyer, we're supposed to believe that none of those star destroyers ever launched anything even remotely close to their complement of TIEs during those battles?

Even during the escape from Hoth, the number of Star Destroyers chasing Han = 3 while the numbers of TIEs chasing him = 4. Why didn't they just send 228 TIE Fighters after the Falcon? Sure, some of their TIEs had to be tied up elsewhere, but 224 of their TIEs otherwise engaged and unable to assist in the pursuit of a ship worthy of three ISDs in pursuit?

I'm not saying that Star Destroyers couldn't physically squeeze 76 TIEs aboard, or that modern day carriers vastly smaller can't carry that many fighters, I'm just saying that there's nothing in the lore that makes me accept that star destroyers are carrying so many fighters. If they are, the Empire are goonish buffons for only ever utilizing minuscule fractions of their total fighters available (at least per: movies, books, comics, video games).

So, you played X-Wing, TIE FIghter, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, X-Wing Alliance, and the Rogue Squadron console series on a system with 8 Quad core CPUs driving a 2 terabyte video card? ....... No? Than I guess we know why you never saw 3000 fighters on the screen at once. And, even if it was possable, the games were mostly about small battles involving snub fighters, reality would have broken the story.

And, speaking of story, how lame would it have been to watch for 15 to 30 minutes as Han took out 228 TIE fighters ... ZZzzzzzzzz....... Even George wasn't that far gone. And, even if he had been, it wasn't possable. Those TIEs weren't CGI. Trying to do a swerling chase scene with asteroids and 228 TIEs would have broken him financially. Again, reality is a be otch.

Ahem, "You plebeian masses couldn't possibly understand the grand scope of Tetris. Of course you couldn't comprehend the full complex vision that such a masterpiece was meant to entail, constrained as it was by the technology of the time. Without the glory of an Intel i10 processor, such a magnificent state of true enlightenment can never be reached."

X-wing, TIE fighter, X-wing vs. TIE fighter, X-wing Alliance, -and to a lesser extent- Rogue squadron are set on a different scale than the prequel movies and those various other peripheral media that came out after the original movies. A lot of it really does seem to correspond to the philsophy that 'less is more' compared to 'gimme' Moar!' Few of those games work from that pseudo-'realistic' EU background of an Empire with unlimited power.

"I want that ship, not excuses." says Vader. "Yes my lord. Send out, like, three guys. No, keep the other sixty nine back with Rhymer, we can't afford the special effects budget. I'd rather Vader kill me than accounting."

This might be a reflection of my own country's military, but if you have 72 aircraft in your possession, how many are actually functional at any one time? How many are held back as a strategic reserve? How many have to be on standby when your first wave has to be refit, refueled, and cycled back into their launch positions? How long can a TIE stay out as a 'short range' fighter? Why don't we have assault gunboats in our games when they are so undeniably kew'? etc, etc.

But the biggest questio of all is: do we really need some Peace of Augsburg inspired document that states 'yes, you're allowed to like the Expanded universe material, so long as we can make reference to the sanctity of the original trilogy, and acknowledge the presence of disciples of the Clone Wars'?

Could you imagine if 228 TIE's were chasing the Falcon? All you need is one to crash into another which sets off a chain reaction which will destroy 75% of them. Then the rest start crashing into each other and/or the wreckage that is left and pretty soon you're down to 3 or 4 TIE's that are either really good pilots, or really lucky. We saw TIE's crashing into each other at the end of ANH, so we know it happens.

Ahem, "You plebeian masses couldn't possibly understand the grand scope of Tetris. Of course you couldn't comprehend the full complex vision that such a masterpiece was meant to entail, constrained as it was by the technology of the time. Without the glory of an Intel i10 processor, such a magnificent state of true enlightenment can never be reached."

Yes, all 4D Tetris, ALL THE TIME!!!

Could you imagine if 228 TIE's were chasing the Falcon? All you need is one to crash into another which sets off a chain reaction which will destroy 75% of them. Then the rest start crashing into each other and/or the wreckage that is left and pretty soon you're down to 3 or 4 TIE's that are either really good pilots, or really lucky. We saw TIE's crashing into each other at the end of ANH, so we know it happens.

Maybe that's what happened off screen.

Fore shadowing on Georges part ........

Could you imagine if 228 TIE's were chasing the Falcon? All you need is one to crash into another which sets off a chain reaction which will destroy 75% of them. Then the rest start crashing into each other and/or the wreckage that is left and pretty soon you're down to 3 or 4 TIE's that are either really good pilots, or really lucky. We saw TIE's crashing into each other at the end of ANH, so we know it happens.

Aside from the fact that it is more fun to paint all 12 X-Wings in Red Squadron (I'll have my models ready to photograph in the near future), fielding 12 stands of A-Wings in a 400 pt list makes much more sense as 3 squadrons than 12 squadrons. Did the Rebels ever have 12 operational squadrons of A-Wings at the same time?