I hate the idea of requiring Huge ships in Epic. If I know all of my opponents will have to field Huge ships, I can spend a lot on anti-huge tech and minimize my investment in my Huge ship (like a nearly naked GR-75 ram).

If Huge ships aren't required, obviously someone can list build against them, but it is a risk. If I spend a ton of points on stuff to deal with low Agility, high Hull targets, I'll pay for that mistake when I hit 4 Aggressors.

I really hope that the Gozanti's cards will help people feel like the Huge ships can compete on their own merits. If they stand on their own, then folks can stop trying to prop them up with artificial requirements.

Just to be clear - I want to play Huge ships. Mine don't see as much table-time as I would like right now. Regardless, I don't think that artificially restricting the meta will make things better.

I agree that "both sides must bring a Huge ship" is fun for casual epic but should not be a Tournament rule. Let the ships stand or fall on their own merits in a competitive environment.

That said, I LOVE the upgrades the Gozanti is bringing to help Huge ships compete. I wrote up a pretty detailed reaction and analysis article about them for my blog: http://teamcovenant.com/edgeofdreams/2015/11/23/eeeinterlude1/

I'm seeing some crazy logic here. I would argue that both sides need to field at least one epic ship, but no more than 5 epic points worth. If you build and entire fleet around just killing an Epic, how will it fair against the other list's fighters? If you don't take an epic ship at all, it does not give you an advantage. The Epic ships are capable of actions and firepower that no small or large base ship can match. Further more, they have the ability to kill small and large base ships just by running into them! Before the Raider came out, I played many games with just the Rebels facing off against 300 points of small Imperial ships. Sometimes the Empire would drop the Epic ships quickly, only to get mopped up by the Rebel fighters. Other times the Empire got so wrapped up in dog fighting that the Epic became a mid game menace! It took a well balanced list and attack to win.

Now that the Raider is out, the same is still true. Putting too much into the Raider could lead to a weak fighter group. A poorly equiped Raider just ends up being a point sink. It take a balance. This is the real challenge to Epic. With out the Epic ships it's just a deathmatch game with more than 100 points to a side...

Scum's epic Huge ship is IG-88ABCD.

Maybe you could make the 3rd and 4th ships cost 1 Epic point each, just for the scaling synergies... but then you're requiring scum to fly doombots. (They're like Brobots, but scarier )

Let people bring what they'll bring. The ships have just had massive balance changes... but not till the Gozanti actually arrives.

If you have a game in two weeks... I'd plan on keeping your Huge ship investments small, if you can. That said, a Transport makes a great escort for the Rebel Hordes.

Huge ships will probably always need to be kept lean, just because of the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear in epic. Fat Raiders and Fat CR-90s are a bad idea because they can't weather that much firepower (Automated Protocols might help a tad, but not completely). Armada is seeing similar things- Fat Assault Frigates and Fat VSDs are a bad idea, and it's looking like fat MC80s and fat ISDs will also be traps.

The "fat ship" metagame was an anomaly in Wave V-VI because the decimator and falcon could weather an inordinate amount of damage without sacrificing offense, combined with high mobility. You can't really do that with huge ships yet, and I don't think you'll be able to do it with the new modifications, either.

If you're playing epic games without a huge ship on each side you're doing it wrong (unless you're both playing that way). This kinda goes for Scum CR-90s too, as much fun as IG-8000 is...

I don't agree with this; What's wrong with getting to field an actual Squadron of Starfighters?

Because sitting an assload of Bs on one side of the field vs. either corvette is going to be ridiculously lopsided. Now if all you're doing is a squadron melee then that's fine, but if you've got a huge your opponent should too.

Sort of wish they were required. Maybe that'll change now that the imps have a few ships?

Unlikely as long as Scum still doesn't have any.

If you're playing epic games without a huge ship on each side you're doing it wrong (unless you're both playing that way). This kinda goes for Scum CR-90s too, as much fun as IG-8000 is...

I don't agree with this; What's wrong with getting to field an actual Squadron of Starfighters?

Because sitting an assload of Bs on one side of the field vs. either corvette is going to be ridiculously lopsided. Now if all you're doing is a squadron melee then that's fine, but if you've got a huge your opponent should too.

But I can field 12 Blue Squadron B-Wings and still have room for a GR-75. My 12 B-Wings will shred Huge ships (along with most other 0 or 1 Agility ships) and I can walk into the match knowing they will have a big, obvious target at the ready (your Huge ship). The requirement to bring my own huge ship won't keep me from bringing a dozen B-Wings - what would keep me from bringing them is the possibility of coming up against 300 points worth of TIE Interceptors (or other decent fire-power arc dodgers) with higher PS, or 300 points of TLT Y-Wings, or whatever.

The solution is to make sure that Huge ships are actually worth their point cost in comparison to small and large ships (or possibly even let them be a little over powered). That way some people will bring them, but players have to account for whatever someone might come up with (which could mean lots of anti-Huge tech goes to waste).

If you're playing epic games without a huge ship on each side you're doing it wrong (unless you're both playing that way). This kinda goes for Scum CR-90s too, as much fun as IG-8000 is...

I don't agree with this; What's wrong with getting to field an actual Squadron of Starfighters?

Because sitting an assload of Bs on one side of the field vs. either corvette is going to be ridiculously lopsided. Now if all you're doing is a squadron melee then that's fine, but if you've got a huge your opponent should too.

But I can field 12 Blue Squadron B-Wings and still have room for a GR-75. My 12 B-Wings will shred Huge ships (along with most other 0 or 1 Agility ships) and I can walk into the match knowing they will have a big, obvious target at the ready (your Huge ship). The requirement to bring my own huge ship won't keep me from bringing a dozen B-Wings - what would keep me from bringing them is the possibility of coming up against 300 points worth of TIE Interceptors (or other decent fire-power arc dodgers) with higher PS, or 300 points of TLT Y-Wings, or whatever.

The solution is to make sure that Huge ships are actually worth their point cost in comparison to small and large ships (or possibly even let them be a little over powered). That way some people will bring them, but players have to account for whatever someone might come up with (which could mean lots of anti-Huge tech goes to waste).

Good point. I was going to say that a squad of B-wings can cripple the fore section of the Raider, but then they become relatively easy to run over with a section that is no longer capable of taking damage. Pretty sweet. Of course, if you have a GR-75 in the mix, the chance that the Raider will reach the B-wings without being blocked by the transport is pretty small. That would be a wicked squad.

Good thing I usually bring plenty of TIE interceptors alongside my Raider

Besides, Epic without the huge ships isn't really EPIC! is it?

Poor Scum and Villainy.

Scum's epic Huge ship is IG-88ABCD.

Maybe you could make the 3rd and 4th ships cost 1 Epic point each, just for the scaling synergies... but then you're requiring scum to fly doombots. (They're like Brobots, but scarier )

Let people bring what they'll bring. The ships have just had massive balance changes... but not till the Gozanti actually arrives.

If you have a game in two weeks... I'd plan on keeping your Huge ship investments small, if you can. That said, a Transport makes a great escort for the Rebel Hordes.

Even if Scum had a huge ship, I have no idea why you wouldn't fly ABCD beside it. Never miss a chance to bring that kind of insanity.

If you're playing epic games without a huge ship on each side you're doing it wrong (unless you're both playing that way). This kinda goes for Scum CR-90s too, as much fun as IG-8000 is...

I don't agree with this; What's wrong with getting to field an actual Squadron of Starfighters?

Because sitting an assload of Bs on one side of the field vs. either corvette is going to be ridiculously lopsided. Now if all you're doing is a squadron melee then that's fine, but if you've got a huge your opponent should too.

But I can field 12 Blue Squadron B-Wings and still have room for a GR-75. My 12 B-Wings will shred Huge ships (along with most other 0 or 1 Agility ships) and I can walk into the match knowing they will have a big, obvious target at the ready (your Huge ship). The requirement to bring my own huge ship won't keep me from bringing a dozen B-Wings - what would keep me from bringing them is the possibility of coming up against 300 points worth of TIE Interceptors (or other decent fire-power arc dodgers) with higher PS, or 300 points of TLT Y-Wings, or whatever.

The solution is to make sure that Huge ships are actually worth their point cost in comparison to small and large ships (or possibly even let them be a little over powered). That way some people will bring them, but players have to account for whatever someone might come up with (which could mean lots of anti-Huge tech goes to waste).

Good point. I was going to say that a squad of B-wings can cripple the fore section of the Raider, but then they become relatively easy to run over with a section that is no longer capable of taking damage. Pretty sweet. Of course, if you have a GR-75 in the mix, the chance that the Raider will reach the B-wings without being blocked by the transport is pretty small. That would be a wicked squad.

Good thing I usually bring plenty of TIE interceptors alongside my Raider

This discussion has gotten me really considering just how well a 12B+GR-75 squad could work. I've only got 8 B-Wings, but I'm sure I could scrounge up a few more for my next epic game...

No toys, those are adult collectibles. Says so right on the box!

Don't lie to yourself man; you gotta own it.

Yeah people still get wrapped around the axle about this one. "Nah man, I don't ACTUALLY ever go 'pew pew pew,' so I'm being super serial (cereal?)!"

The package says they're not toys to discourage you from trying to sue FFG if you let your toddler choke on them. And frankly, if you haven't flown a couple of your ships around the living room when your girlfriend is out, you're doing it wrong. Lighten up, brochachos.

If you're playing casual epic, proxy in Automated Protocols, Optimized Generators and Ordnance Tubes. There's a reason the Gozanti comes with three of each (even though you can only run two Epic ships). They're the Huge Ship Fixes.

when your girlfriend is out

I didn't know this was a requirement, I always Pew-Pew at her Death Stars.

UHH...

DAT:

Good points made here, and I think the cards that come with the gozanti may really allow huge ships to hold their own and really be worth their points. At the moment, the best epic ship is the GR-75. It's worth brining along.

I would agree that epic play is more about fun and less about hardcore competition, and I think in the majority of cases, 300 points of small ships will win out against a huge and escorts the vast majority of the time. Some of this is because people tend to over upgrade the huge ship, some of it is that big ships are a little too fragile for their points, and they do need some protection as well.

Automated protocols alone will do wonders for the durability of huge ships, and maybe put them where they should have been all along.

Think about the durability of a YT-1300 in hull and shields vs a CR-90 and you will see what I mean about big ships being a little too squishy.

This next part is strictly my opinion, but Epic should require you to bring a huge ship, otherwise its just a 300 point standard xwing, and that can be fun too, but I think if it were stated that way in the rules, then huge ships would see more play.

If I'm showing up on a game night to play epic with a CR-90, and I wind up facing 300 points of fighters, that's not much fun, and my ship is probably not configured well for this, so I start at a big disadvantage.

Now, I have played epic games where I knew in advance there would not be a huge ship on the opposite team, and we agreed to that in advance, well, that makes a huge difference it what I bring.

It's true from the other side as well. If you are going to play 300 point xwing with and you know you are facing a huge ship, you will build a very different list than you would if there was no huge ship on the other side.

I would propose this:

Epic play= 300 point minimum, with at least 2 epic points worth of ships

standard play= whatever point level you decide, scale play area for larger fights

Mixed = as epic above, but without the requirement to bring any huge ships

To me, huge ships are the point of epic, and they are a ton of fun. I don't feel they pull their weight like an equivalent number of points in fighters can, and that is the problem with epic tourney games in my view. I do think the new cards will really help huge ships a lot though.

I'd simply alter the rules to give all epic ships an integral, 0-point FCS. That way, any clown that tries to bring 12 Y-Wings to the party is going to be looking at 3 plasma torpedoes or assault missiles per turn plus the chef's choice of primary weapon and escort.

For me at least I think Epic is only Epic with Huge ships. Otherwise it's a bigger X-Wing game. What's wrong with Epic having a minimum number of required Epic points? Two or even three would work.

As for Epic ships crumbling to swarms of fighters, I'm okay with that too as it seems very Star Wars to me. It gives the X-Wing life and real purpose for bombers and Y-Wings; Ordnance is awesome in Epic even with fickled dice; Maarek Stele should be in and Epic game against Epic ships and I could go on... Plus capital ships have other uses in the Star Wars Universe and are needed for things: transport; planetary bombardment; transporting non-FTL ships; cool flag ships for big bosses; etc. So they are part of Star Wars.

At least to me a 400 point X-Wing game is not the same thing as an Epic X-Wing game. And yes missions/scenarios are very exciting and add a whole new flavor to X-Wing other than line them up and joust and repeat. Even the builds are more varied.

Star Wars is little fast fighters zipping in and around slower larger capital ships listening to John Williams in the background.

The thing I disagree most with about epic being mandatory is that it removes the whole dambusters/sink the bismarck narrative of a fighter raid against a larger ship. OK so you can have gozers dropping in fighter wings, or ECM jamming GR75s, both of these things are extremely cool. But fighter strikes vs a convoy or a mini stardestroyer are equally cool, and in forcing epic you are removing this without good reason.

You said it yourself in that bold statement.

Star Wars is little fast fighters zipping in and around slower larger capital ships listening to John Williams in the background.

Additionally 300 points just in starfighters plays very differently from 100 points in starfighters. If nothing else, battle of Britain style warfare applies!

It's worth mentioning that as per it's Star Wars, the World War II references are very intentional.

The thing I disagree most with about epic being mandatory is that it removes the whole dambusters/sink the bismarck narrative of a fighter raid against a larger ship.

I didn't mean to imply that someone can't or even shouldn't have a 400 point X-Wing game of fighters all over the place. It's just for me at least that isn't quite Epic. I'm sure some can debate semantics and say it is 'epic in scale' but that's not what I mean.

There are fun 100 point X-Wing games.

I'm sure there are fun 400 points X-Wngs that play completely differently in both strategy and squad make up. I'm not sure what I'd prefer to call them since they are notably different.

But then there's Epic with huge Star Wars ships etc... Now that's Epic.

P.S. If you don't have any ships that use Epic points then perhaps it isn't Epic.

This discussion has gotten me really considering just how well a 12B+GR-75 squad could work. I've only got 8 B-Wings, but I'm sure I could scrounge up a few more for my next epic game...

Gah!

And here I am all lousy with a pathetic six B's... How dare you sir!

The thing I disagree most with about epic being mandatory is that it removes the whole dambusters/sink the bismarck narrative of a fighter raid against a larger ship.

I didn't mean to imply that someone can't or even shouldn't have a 400 point X-Wing game of fighters all over the place. It's just for me at least that isn't quite Epic. I'm sure some can debate semantics and say it is 'epic in scale' but that's not what I mean.

There are fun 100 point X-Wing games.

I'm sure there are fun 400 points X-Wngs that play completely differently in both strategy and squad make up. I'm not sure what I'd prefer to call them since they are notably different.

But then there's Epic with huge Star Wars ships etc... Now that's Epic.

P.S. If you don't have any ships that use Epic points then perhaps it isn't Epic.

Oh you know I do. But my point is that an arbitrary epic ship means you can't have 1 side fighters vs another side epic.

If you're playing epic games without a huge ship on each side you're doing it wrong (unless you're both playing that way). This kinda goes for Scum CR-90s too, as much fun as IG-8000 is...

I don't agree with this; What's wrong with getting to field an actual Squadron of Starfighters?

Because sitting an assload of Bs on one side of the field vs. either corvette is going to be ridiculously lopsided. Now if all you're doing is a squadron melee then that's fine, but if you've got a huge your opponent should too.

But I can field 12 Blue Squadron B-Wings and still have room for a GR-75. My 12 B-Wings will shred Huge ships (along with most other 0 or 1 Agility ships) and I can walk into the match knowing they will have a big, obvious target at the ready (your Huge ship). The requirement to bring my own huge ship won't keep me from bringing a dozen B-Wings - what would keep me from bringing them is the possibility of coming up against 300 points worth of TIE Interceptors (or other decent fire-power arc dodgers) with higher PS, or 300 points of TLT Y-Wings, or whatever.

The solution is to make sure that Huge ships are actually worth their point cost in comparison to small and large ships (or possibly even let them be a little over powered). That way some people will bring them, but players have to account for whatever someone might come up with (which could mean lots of anti-Huge tech goes to waste).

Good point. I was going to say that a squad of B-wings can cripple the fore section of the Raider, but then they become relatively easy to run over with a section that is no longer capable of taking damage. Pretty sweet. Of course, if you have a GR-75 in the mix, the chance that the Raider will reach the B-wings without being blocked by the transport is pretty small. That would be a wicked squad.

Good thing I usually bring plenty of TIE interceptors alongside my Raider

This discussion has gotten me really considering just how well a 12B+GR-75 squad could work. I've only got 8 B-Wings, but I'm sure I could scrounge up a few more for my next epic game...

Oddly enough, X-wings are also pretty solid in Epic; they'll be even moreso once Integrated Astromech comes into play.

2 Agility might not be an awful lot, but there's a whole ton of unmodified dice (or swarmy TIEs) thrown around in Epic, and that extra green pays off often enough, even before the Single Turbolasers are forced to open fire at a 4-green target.

Perhaps surprisingly, given the size of the field that extra smidgeon of speed really does pay off too. Fly 'em on the edges of your B-wing formations, and they can help keep guns on target as the formation wheels - or chase down fleeing TIE Fighters (if not Interceptors, as it were).

X-wings are great for Epic.