Sorry, yet another attempt to discuss something while we wait for wave 2 to finally show up....

I'm actually thinking I like the ISD1 variant better, being speed 3 and easy access to rerolls I hope I can reliably make the black dice pay off.

Its just hard to avoid making it overloaded with upgrades. Gunnery teams and leading shots is 11, Xi7s or a title would make it even more...

The obvious benefit to the ISD2 is ECM. But if that's the only improvement, is 17 points worth it just for ECM?

I think most of the time isd-1 becaus black dice=dead things

But I also think as we progress into wave 2 ecm is going to be worth the 17 point upgrade at least in certain lists especially after you put your commander on the ship

As a dedicated carrier, ISD1. The double offensive upgrade slots are going to be absolutely golden - with Chiraneau, Flight controllers, enhanced comms and expanded hangars even 5 basic TIE fighters are going to absolutely chew through any enemy fighters. A cheaper combination of those cards will still be absolutely deadly.

As a flagship/gunship, definitely the ISD2. ECM will work wonders here and really make the difference between a dead flagship and dead enemies. I am thinking ISD2 + ECM + X17s + Intel officer. A basic, cookie-cutter combination but utterly lethal. I will enjoy running this with 2 VSD1s and Motti.

I've written a guide for my thoughts on Imperial Star destroyers.

I prefer, and have only been flying, the ISD-II myself, but I like heavy starship guns as my tool of trade. Like the command MC80s with double defense the ISD-I's double offense gives you a lot of access to fighter stuff, so I think it's a good call to use them as carriers.

It is a little disappointing that they don't have a missile slot, so compared to GSDs and VSD-Is, ISD-I use on black dice will be okay, but not as awe-inspiring and destructive. On the other hand you're throwing black dice with access to ions and turbolasers, so....?

Odd fact some might not have noticed, but ISD-I Ion effects are generally happening when the front arc fires, because that's where the blue dice is. Makes it a little more specific to use than other ships.

Just earlier today for a campaign I ran an ISD-II with NK-7s, H9s, and an Intelligence officer. The results were not pretty. I brawled with an MC80 I'm half certain Iwould have been able to kill on the next turn had he not fled at the start of it (campaign ruling), and that was after suffering almost two turns of losing defense tokens and not being able to use brace. Star Destroyers are mean. And soon everyone is going to have one. The vehicle carnage is going to be spectacular.

ISD2 no contest.

One of each. If I'm playing Empire, I'm playing Empire; it's like someone asking if you want to play hockey with one skate or two. Sure, you can always try three and be 'that guy' trying to stab their opponent with the spare. Crazy is as crazy does.

More seriously, D503's basically summed it up: the dedicated carrier aspect of the ISD I's double offensive slots are pretty alluring. Given I play squadron-heavy, it looks a little more conducive to my style, having that extra bomber attack can mean a lot.

And yet, I like the ISD-II more (in theory, as that's all I've got to work from). The ECM-err, defensive refit slot, is crucial to have on a ship that big and pricy. I'm not sure I'd stake my admiral's flag on it -it's too nice a target- but it will likely come up in every list I'm allowed to put it in (which is campaign dependent).

ISD-I when you want something to compliment a more aggressive fleet. That front battery is vicious up close. I feel like the ISD-I is particularly good with Vader as your commander because you want to reroll literally every dice color in that front arc. The red and black dice for when they turn up blank and the blue dice to go fishing for an Accuracy icon to lock down Brace. It's also a good carrier (as mentioned above) due to the two Offensive slots (for Expanded Hangar Bays + Boosted Comms). I'm a bit skeptical of being able to get the most of it as both a carrier and a gunship, however - its dice compliment seems to recommend Navigate to ensure you can corner well enough to keep hot on the heels of your prey and in short range, which may conflict with your desire to Squadron command. It's too expensive to use only as a carrier (unlike a VSD-I carrier which is fairly cost-effective). The ISD-I has higher damage potential than the ISD-II and for a cheaper price. It can take a beating with its 11 hull and large number of shields but without a Defensive Retrofit upgrade slot it does not want to trade punches forever with other heavy ships. Put that all together and you have a ship that wants to be a bully. Close and then chase your enemies, only taking their best arcs for 1-2 turns if possible. Pick on smaller ships.

ISD-II when you want an artillery platform. The Defensive slot is helpful. I think the ISD-II will end up being the "default" ISD, given the Imperials generally lack a ship that can go toe-to-toe with Rebel heavies at long-to-medium ranges (the VSD-II is the only other ship that could make a claim to the same and it's a frustrating ship to get the most out of in my experience, the ISD-II seems to solve the speed/maneuverability issue that is the VSD-II's constant annoying companion). The ISD-II is easier to bring to bear on targets and therefore easier to pilot for a reasonable cost increase. Its use is pretty straightforward.

I think they each have their place.

I have used both in both 300 and 400 point lists ( I only have 1 ISD until next week so its been an either-or for me so far).

I think the ISD I is unparalleled as a carrier, I have had opponents panic at the rhymerball when their fighters fail to lock it down and try to take out the ISD1 only to eat that rainbow front arc. The ISDII I have been using as a wrecking ball, I have gone completely against conventional wisdom and packed nearly 200 points into it. Gunnery team, NK7, Intel officer, tractor beam, advanced projectors (or ECM depending), Avenger (paired with an overload pulse raider) and XI7s plus screed. Ironically, many opponents that should know better see this thing and think points bucket and charge in on it, I spam engineering commands and 2 shot most anything that gets in medium range while my overload pulse missile (raider) serves them up. Last game I played with this thing I faced 4 Neb Bs, I used the station to obstruct 3 rounds of return fire (4+ of his dice obstructed vs 2 of mine) it made such short work of them my flanking raider and demolisher barely got a taste (demolisher crashed into the side of his trailing flagship and wrecked it and I used the raider as a bump-missile to finish it). My raider literally did not get a chance to fire and my Demo only shot 3 times. When you get that front arc of 8 dice pointed at something and have a decent roll its a thing of beauty, typically you are punching right to hull thanks to the XI7s and taking away a defense token with NK7s (possibly 2 if they are forced to trigger the intel officer to stay alive), the next volley is inevitably deadly. If you get 2 fools in your front arc and can throw 16 dice total at 2 different targets it makes a little tear of joy pop into the corner of your eye.

This is really up to the player and there style.

Some great discussion, thanks guys.

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

Yeah, exactly, that's why they make amazing bait until rebel players start learning how to play against them.

My friend who is a frequent opponent and rebel player has lost every game against me since I got my ISD and only the very first one was close as I didn't know how to use it and stupidly ran it to speed 3 and didn't have nav tokens or nav commands plotted so it fired 1 time and spent the rest of the game trying to turn back into the fight.

After his last loss he realized he needs to "ignore" the ISD. A well played ISD (by this I mean well designed, well deployed, well maneuvered, properly supported) is incredibly tough to take down (much like the same goes for a well played corvette that keeps stinging you and you can never seem to pin the thing down). Too many people are using ISDs like blunt objects and then complaining they go down easy. Every time I have seen a rebel fleet take out an ISD it has been outside of medium range of any supporting ships or fighters.

Remember, my fellow imperial commanders, the ISD is shaped like a dagger not a battering ram.

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

Yeah, exactly, that's why they make amazing bait until rebel players start learning how to play against them.

My friend who is a frequent opponent and rebel player has lost every game against me since I got my ISD and only the very first one was close as I didn't know how to use it and stupidly ran it to speed 3 and didn't have nav tokens or nav commands plotted so it fired 1 time and spent the rest of the game trying to turn back into the fight.

After his last loss he realized he needs to "ignore" the ISD. A well played ISD (by this I mean well designed, well deployed, well maneuvered, properly supported) is incredibly tough to take down (much like the same goes for a well played corvette that keeps stinging you and you can never seem to pin the thing down). Too many people are using ISDs like blunt objects and then complaining they go down easy. Every time I have seen a rebel fleet take out an ISD it has been outside of medium range of any supporting ships or fighters.

Remember, my fellow imperial commanders, the ISD is shaped like a dagger not a battering ram.

The ISD is arguably the most survivable ship in the game, sure.

But not by much.

Under sustained or concentrated fire, they'll go down just like anything else. They can sustain all of five more damage than an Assault Frigate. That's not nothing, but they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut that a lot of people seem to think they are.

Black dice, best dice.

So ISD-I.

The slower VSD-IIs I have on my flanks while I slow roll with my Imperial. So for a rebel determined to kill my star destroyer, he has to contend with approaching Overload-pulse armed VSDs equipped with Screed. Sure, I've sacrificed already a number of VSDs to keep the Star Destroyer valid, but that's what Imperial commanders do. And the VSDs are worth less points than the Imperial.

Black dice, best dice.

So ISD-I.

Best dice are the kind you actually get the chance to roll. A good rebel player using a swarm list will rarely if ever see your ISD or VSD black dice, why would they? The only rebel ship with notable blacks is the MC30 and if its in short range its to finish you off, a smart player will always be using the reds on those unless they are using a "pack" of MC30s which I have fortunately never experienced.

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

Yeah, exactly, that's why they make amazing bait until rebel players start learning how to play against them.

My friend who is a frequent opponent and rebel player has lost every game against me since I got my ISD and only the very first one was close as I didn't know how to use it and stupidly ran it to speed 3 and didn't have nav tokens or nav commands plotted so it fired 1 time and spent the rest of the game trying to turn back into the fight.

After his last loss he realized he needs to "ignore" the ISD. A well played ISD (by this I mean well designed, well deployed, well maneuvered, properly supported) is incredibly tough to take down (much like the same goes for a well played corvette that keeps stinging you and you can never seem to pin the thing down). Too many people are using ISDs like blunt objects and then complaining they go down easy. Every time I have seen a rebel fleet take out an ISD it has been outside of medium range of any supporting ships or fighters.

Remember, my fellow imperial commanders, the ISD is shaped like a dagger not a battering ram.

The ISD is arguably the most survivable ship in the game, sure.

But not by much.

Under sustained or concentrated fire, they'll go down just like anything else. They can sustain all of five more damage than an Assault Frigate. That's not nothing, but they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut that a lot of people seem to think they are.

I would question that analysis. There is a reason the ISD is equipped with a double redirect, and that is to fully utilize its shields before hull gets touched. It is a rare game where I don't have zero shield on all sides before I have more than 2 or 3 damage cards on the hull, and that is where the engineering spam comes in. 3 rounds of engineering plus 1 token = 7 additional damage that can be spread, if I'm running Tarkin it's more (which is why with more than 1 big ship Tarkin is substantially superior to Motti on certain strats). I typically run advanced projectors to facilitate this, yes XI7s hurt that, but I have never ever ever seen a swarm list that packs an XI7 on every ship, seen plenty that pack enhanced armaments, and it's a simple matter to regen shields facing the XI7 ship while I burn it down.

Long story short, it is substantially more survivable when you play it in the role of bait tank instead of hunter-killer

but your summary is correct. They are most certainly not an "unstoppable juggernaut" as people attempt to play them. I know when I kill an opposing ISD that was played too aggressively there is this dazed confused look on the opponents face like "that wasn't supposed to happen"

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

Yeah, exactly, that's why they make amazing bait until rebel players start learning how to play against them.

My friend who is a frequent opponent and rebel player has lost every game against me since I got my ISD and only the very first one was close as I didn't know how to use it and stupidly ran it to speed 3 and didn't have nav tokens or nav commands plotted so it fired 1 time and spent the rest of the game trying to turn back into the fight.

After his last loss he realized he needs to "ignore" the ISD. A well played ISD (by this I mean well designed, well deployed, well maneuvered, properly supported) is incredibly tough to take down (much like the same goes for a well played corvette that keeps stinging you and you can never seem to pin the thing down). Too many people are using ISDs like blunt objects and then complaining they go down easy. Every time I have seen a rebel fleet take out an ISD it has been outside of medium range of any supporting ships or fighters.

Remember, my fellow imperial commanders, the ISD is shaped like a dagger not a battering ram.

The ISD is arguably the most survivable ship in the game, sure.

But not by much.

Under sustained or concentrated fire, they'll go down just like anything else. They can sustain all of five more damage than an Assault Frigate. That's not nothing, but they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut that a lot of people seem to think they are.

With Motti, that's 8 more hull points. Then it becomes pretty borderline.

The ISD is arguably the most survivable ship in the game, sure.

But not by much.

Under sustained or concentrated fire, they'll go down just like anything else. They can sustain all of five more damage than an Assault Frigate. That's not nothing, but they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut that a lot of people seem to think they are.

I would question that analysis. There is a reason the ISD is equipped with a double redirect, and that is to fully utilize its shields before hull gets touched. It is a rare game where I don't have zero shield on all sides before I have more than 2 or 3 damage cards on the hull, and that is where the engineering spam comes in. 3 rounds of engineering plus 1 token = 7 additional damage that can be spread, if I'm running Tarkin it's more (which is why with more than 1 big ship Tarkin is substantially superior to Motti on certain strats). I typically run advanced projectors to facilitate this, yes XI7s hurt that, but I have never ever ever seen a swarm list that packs an XI7 on every ship, seen plenty that pack enhanced armaments, and it's a simple matter to regen shields facing the XI7 ship while I burn it down.

Long story short, it is substantially more survivable when you play it in the role of bait tank instead of hunter-killer

but your summary is correct. They are most certainly not an "unstoppable juggernaut" as people attempt to play them. I know when I kill an opposing ISD that was played too aggressively there is this dazed confused look on the opponents face like "that wasn't supposed to happen"

All true, but you can stack all the same commands and (defensive) upgrades on the AF2; bringing up the ISD 's 4 engineering (same as AF), AP (also available on AF), or ability to reshuffle shields (available on... basically everything) is not useful. You are correct that they get the second redirect, but it's really only relevant in edge cases: a well-defended AF2 will also go down with zero shields left. If I lose a frigate that still has shields, I ****** something up.

Which puts us right back where I started: in terms of survivability, the ISD is only five hull better than an AF2. It's obviously not a perfect comparison, but if the ISD were just a bigger, meaner ________ with MOAR NUMBERS, it wouldn't make for a very interesting game.

So the AF2 is about the closest comparison to the ISD survivability-wise that we have much experience with. And several months of experience have shown us that an AF2 flown too aggressively will die and die hard. All I'm saying is that the same is true of the ISD.

ISD-2 is your ship against rebels

at medium range, you will pop cr-90s and savage Nebs/Shrimps as well as tear through fatties

with superior range and great maneuverability, this is the ship you use to hunt down the rebellion

also, Defensive Retrofit

plus, with the ISD being a large, lumbering; expensive target it sorta helps to not have to be in close range to unload your full potential

Yeah, exactly, that's why they make amazing bait until rebel players start learning how to play against them.

My friend who is a frequent opponent and rebel player has lost every game against me since I got my ISD and only the very first one was close as I didn't know how to use it and stupidly ran it to speed 3 and didn't have nav tokens or nav commands plotted so it fired 1 time and spent the rest of the game trying to turn back into the fight.

After his last loss he realized he needs to "ignore" the ISD. A well played ISD (by this I mean well designed, well deployed, well maneuvered, properly supported) is incredibly tough to take down (much like the same goes for a well played corvette that keeps stinging you and you can never seem to pin the thing down). Too many people are using ISDs like blunt objects and then complaining they go down easy. Every time I have seen a rebel fleet take out an ISD it has been outside of medium range of any supporting ships or fighters.

Remember, my fellow imperial commanders, the ISD is shaped like a dagger not a battering ram.

The ISD is arguably the most survivable ship in the game, sure.

But not by much.

Under sustained or concentrated fire, they'll go down just like anything else. They can sustain all of five more damage than an Assault Frigate. That's not nothing, but they're far from the unstoppable juggernaut that a lot of people seem to think they are.

With Motti, that's 8 more hull points. Then it becomes pretty borderline.

Yes, but then we're comparing apples and oranges. It's true, if you spend your admiral points and slot on a full-defense upgrade, your defense will improve. That's a discussion about the value of Motti, not of the ISD.

So ISD 2 for survivability through both range and ECM. Got it

Any other upgrades? I think it will go easy to go overboard. I can justify ECM, gunnery teams, Xi7s, leading shots if not Vadering. Also tractor beam.

But then its lit up like a Christmas tree!

ISDs are ideal to go 'naked' or just with the Relentless title. As carriers, add boosted coms and flight controllers. For more ISD 2 firepower, add overload pulse or leading shots. thats it.

So ISD 2 for survivability through both range and ECM. Got it

Any other upgrades? I think it will go easy to go overboard. I can justify ECM, gunnery teams, Xi7s, leading shots if not Vadering. Also tractor beam.

But then its lit up like a Christmas tree!

You probably don't need Leading Shots, Vader or not. The blue dice are all gold (unless you roll 4 accuracies) and the red dice will deal an average of 3 damage. It would be good for those corner case rolls, maybe throw it on there if you have 4 spare points.

ECM should top the list. Protecting that Brace is huge. We've watched rebels do it for months, now it's our turn.

XI7 and Gunnery Team. Both great in very different ways. I'd suggest waiting to see how the rest of the list fills out, see if you can comfortably cram both in there, if not then you can better determine if you want the battering ram, or the damage spreader. I'd also put Intel Officer in this group. He can be horrifically devastating.

Same with Tractor Beams, see how your list pans out.

I need more table time with it before I get a more nuanced opinion, but the ISD-I impressed last night. With Tractor Beams and XI7s with Vader rerolls it was able to corner other ships and get in that big nasty front arc with a reliable Accuracy to lock down Brace and just do oodles of damage.

The main problem with building an ISD for me (either version) is the temptation to go overboard on upgrades, which is normally not a problem for me.

the ISD-2 was made for Gunnery Team; never leave home without it

ISD-1 not as much; not sure it's terribly worth it when most of its damage comes out at close range