Yeah, modified wins are as good as losses unless you're playing a lot of rounds.

Armada's tournament point scoring system is better IMO. Where if you completely sweep without losing anything you get a full 10 tournament points, but if one player scores 60-something and the other player scores 48, the former will get 6 tournament points and the latter will get 4 or 5 (not sure exactly how it works).

The sort of binary nuanceless, "Welp I killed one more TIE Fighter thatn you did, guess I get a full win" is kind of annoying. Not a super huge problem,but something like Armada's system would be better. Less games would be determined by MoV, which is fine.

4 points = Full win > 33pts, or all opponent ships are dead

3 points = Mod win 13-33pts

2 points = Draw, within 12 points

1 point = Mod loss 13-33pts

0 points = Full loss >33pts

I'd be open to the idea of reducing that to 6 or something since the case could easily be made that an Academy Pilot doesn't stand a chance against a Rookie Pilot in a 1on1 situation, and that's only 9 points differential.

I'd say it needs to be less than the cheapest ship. It would be unfair to kill a tie, have your opponent kill nothing and get a draw out of it.

Eh...if the opponent managed to lose nothing but a TIE Fighter...IE., managed to keep alive 88 points of their list for over 75 minutes from your best efforts...

...I'd say that counts as a 'draw', whether they killed something or not.

4 points = Full win > 33pts, or all opponent ships are dead

3 points = Mod win 13-33pts

2 points = Draw, within 12 points

1 point = Mod loss 13-33pts

0 points = Full loss >33pts

I'd be open to the idea of reducing that to 6 or something since the case could easily be made that an Academy Pilot doesn't stand a chance against a Rookie Pilot in a 1on1 situation, and that's only 9 points differential.

I'd say it needs to be less than the cheapest ship. It would be unfair to kill a tie, have your opponent kill nothing and get a draw out of it.

Eh...if the opponent managed to lose nothing but a TIE Fighter...IE., managed to keep alive 88 points of their list for over 75 minutes from your best efforts...

...I'd say that counts as a 'draw', whether they killed something or not.

And that is not the realistic situation most of the time. When time is called, generally, a good amount of ships will have been killed. Is it a draw if it is 2 Academy Pilots vs 1 Bandit? Is it a draw if it is down to one 50 pt IG-2000 vs one 38 pt Poe?

Time to set me on fire but I have to ask...what's a modified win compared to a full win?

Time to set me on fire but I have to ask...what's a modified win compared to a full win?

When time is called you tally up the points killed. If you killed from 1-11 pts more than your opponent it is a MW. 12+ more than your opponent its a Full Win

Frustrating. Went 4-0 on Saturday. Came in second by 3 MOV.

Not frustrating. It was my 9 YO son's very first Tournament and he did well...not so much in the W-L category (he got the crash prize for last place) but that he didn't lose focus or whine about losing.

I now have 2 Padawans to share my hobby fun with.

Play faster you cowards!

Yesterday I was in a tournament at Zombie Planet in Albany NY. It was a great tournament with 26 great players. It was well run and with excellent prize support. What made my head nearly explode was Tournament points. We did a five round swiss with no cut. I was the only undefeated player at the tournament, but I had THREE modified wins. Apparently no one else even had one modified all day. Even though I was the only player who had not lost once I ended up in 5th. Argh!

I'm not saying the system is broken or should be changed or anything. There was literally a single left turn made by my Tycho Celchu that cost me the tournament and the guy running the event felt enough sympathy they gave me an extra prize anyway, just because he was a good guy. I'm just venting and sharing my pain!

As a TO I can understand your frustration. My biggest worry is that I would end up awarding 1st to a player with 2 wins and a loss, and 2nd to someone with 3 modified wins. I understand why it's there though. It encourages players to go for broke instead of running away with their EU Falcon.

An option I have seen used in another game is to use the points difference, and add 1000 to the winner.

So it is like MOV and wins all rolled into one, with no option for "modified wins" because the MOV is a tie breaker anyway.

hm.. I can see where that IS unsatisfying, but..

the system is fine as it is, IMHO.

a mod.win is basically a draw, with just a TINY amount of plus on one side.

so it's quite okay that a full.win and a mod.win are 2 points apart.

I have seen this example time and time again. A modified win is an actual win, how do I know? Because 1 MoV difference is all you need to advance during the elimination portion of a tournament, you know the important part that determines the victor...

Should a Modified win be worth less points than a full win? Sure. Should there be a two point difference between a full win and a modified win? No, there really shouldn't. The people that seem to advocate keeping the status quo fail to realise the system is arbitrary in the first place. There really isn't a rhyme or reason to say a modified win is only worth 60% of a full win.

I would get rid of modified wins completely, but if you have to have them then at least increase them to 4 points.

That way:

3 wins is 15 points

3 MW are 12 points

2 W and a L are 10 points

In addition add in a bonus point for a modified loss and up true draws to 2 or 3 points (not sure which, ideally it would be 2.5).

The other thing I wanted to clear up is the misconception that Modified Wins are due to slow play. This is far from the truth and most often it is because the game is close and evenly matched. It happens, games go to time sometimes, sometimes those games are close, too close to call, lets not keep penalising people for having close competitive games anymore. Heck even Paul Heaver got a Modified Win at Worlds and I think at least some of his other games went to time.

There is actually a reason. To encourage aggression and completion of a game in time. Without such a penalty for not killing enough in time, you will have issues with stalling and non-engagement.

Having no tournament experience, my gut feeling says that having 4 full wins and 1 loss, is worth more than 2 full wins and 3 modified wins, that could easily have been a draw.

Allowing 2 full wins/3 mod wins to supersede 4 full wins/1 loss may cause people to slow-play or bring lists that are designed to draw out the game and just come on top near the end.

One of the benefits of having a cut off followed by elimination round finals, is that it uses point systems to determine who the best players are, then uses elimination rounds to determine a winner from the group.

Typically this means the best players do make finals, and the player who plays best in the finals becomes the champ.

The point system is great at determining who the best players are, but not so great (IMO) at determining who ought to win.

I think that is why the cut-off exists - to reduce or eliminate this sort of outcome.

I feel your pain I went to a tournament once went 4-0 but 2 were modified. Both games I had full health Corran against 1 health soontir with damaged cockpit and 3 health Han when time was called. Ended up being the only one to go undefeated but finished 4th out of 10th.

How is it?

2 full wins + 2 modified wins = 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 = 16 VP.

3 full wins = 5 + 5 + 5 = 15 VP.

2 modified wins (or 1 draw) never let you lose, if you only undefeated.

Curious how long are the rounds where everyone is getting these modified wins?

And.., Why can't community groups run tournaments with official FFG kits?

What's stopping community groups from doing this?

And.., Why can't community groups run tournaments with official FFG kits?

What's stopping community groups from doing this?

You need to be a retailer to order the kits. It is possible that the Flight Crew program may help with this, but I wouldn't expect them to completely bypass retailers.

And.., Why can't community groups run tournaments with official FFG kits?

What's stopping community groups from doing this?

You need to be a retailer to order the kits. It is possible that the Flight Crew program may help with this, but I wouldn't expect them to completely bypass retailers.

Easiest way around this is just order a out by proxy through a retailer though there might be some rules against that for retailers.

Yes, they are not for resale. Getting it for a group not at the store would technically be reselling it.

Furthermore, how often does someone get the mod win not because it's 5 ties vs 4 ties, but because he has 49pt Horn and his opponent has 48pt Horn (or something similar), where it still is really a toss up between the two.

Given that:

1) Games that go to time (unavoidable)

2) Points scored on a given ship has a sudden and massive "jump" in value

... the problem you point out is ALWAYS going to happen. Changing the specific criteria for win/mod win/draw only moves the boundary condition.

There is only one solution to fix the "scoring distortion" in games going to time, and that is to use partial points where every damage counts for some points. Any other attempted solution just kicks the can around without actually fixing anything.

I'm not saying this will ever happen or pragmatically would even be the best thing for the game (scoring would be a pain unless you had really good tournament software). But it is the inevitable cold hard truth, and as a result Fat Point Fortresses are here to stay from now until the end of eternity. The optimal Point Fortress has merely changed from Fat Han to expensive regenerating small base ships.

Also note -- your proposal strongly incentivizes a losing player to slow play if they are losing by less than 33 points but are clearly in a losing position. If the game goes to time they get 1 victory point instead of 0 if the game completes. I actually really like the idea of every game being worth 4 points. But it would potentially create even more problems without using full-bore partial points.

All tournament tie breakers are kinda arbitrary. In my last tournament I got to the table that would've let me win had I won, but I lost, and then the two people I beat on the way there ended up ahead of me because I lost my final game 100-0.

It's just how it is. Not sure there's a good way to work it.

Fly better next time.

I'd say it needs to be less than the cheapest ship. It would be unfair to kill a tie, have your opponent kill nothing and get a draw out of it.

Eh...if the opponent managed to lose nothing but a TIE Fighter...IE., managed to keep alive 88 points of their list for over 75 minutes from your best efforts...

...I'd say that counts as a 'draw', whether they killed something or not.

You could spin the split any number of ways in ship kills. Still think that a full ship kill difference doesn't equal a draw. It also makes a lot of sense of where to define a limit for a draw. Otherwise you're arbitrarily picking a number. You're also setting a bar for where losses in a tournament doesn't matter.

I want to know why they did 5 rounds of swiss no cut instead of 4 rounds of swiss with cut to top 4

To address a few questions and comments:

1) The rounds were full 75 Minutes.

2) Nobody was slow playing anything, we all tried our best, got kills, and just had close totals. (55-44, 39-38, I forget the third but it was another 10 point difference in the middle.)

3) They did not cut to Swiss because they were not expecting the turnout they got (most tournaments in the area are half this size or less) and were not prepared to add an unscheduled 3 hours to their day. This was not a premiere event and the store does not have to schedule it exactly as listed in the tournament rules.

Also, I think this is my first Major Juggler response to one of my posts, I'm honored.

PS. I'm actually kind of fascinated by this thread. I kind of expected 2 or three "that hurts bro" responses and then it would be done. Way to get into a reasoned and thorough discussion of the pros and cons of the point system FFG formuites!