Current Issues in Epic

By ID X T, in X-Wing

While everyone is jumping aboard the Epic bandwagon it seems now is a good time to try and sort or highlight some issues with the current Epic format.

Comms Booster.
Currently Comms Booster facilitates a rather abusive combo with Biggs. The ability to use multiple Comms Boosters a turn to give Biggs many focus tokens (plus an evade from from Jan Ors) on top of increased agility through R2-F2 and Stealth Device makes him almost impossible to kill, thus preventing you from killing him or his friends. You pretty much have to try and kill the huge ship first. While possible to play around it is relatively abusive and should really be restricted somewhat.
Suggested fix. Comms Booster becomes limited. Commentary, no more triple Comms Boosters. Multiples only through additional ships curbs the abusiveness of the combo without breaking it entirely.
Esege Tuketu.
An email ruling (apparently) has suggested an epic ship CAN use focus tokens off of Esege’s ship. Given the huge ships cannot use focus normally (and would discard them) makes this ability ridiculously powerful with Huge ships. Given it is limited to Rebels only, this has a wildly powerful swing (particularly in addition to Han crew who is already extremely powerful on a Corvette) in terms of modifying attack dice.
Suggested fix. Reverse ruling, Huge ships may not use Esege Tuketu’s focus tokens.
The above ideas are to curb overpowered combos which really should to be eliminated. The following are tweaks, some more wide ranging than others that are considerations for beefing up the power of the huge ships somewhat. While all of them individually help out, putting them all in would probably be too much. Consider each individually on its own first, rather than the idea that all would need to be implemented together.
Gunnery Teams.
At least until today the Corvette was able to take 4 teams, yet only 3 teams existed. The Gunnery Team is expensive at 4 points and can only be used once per turn for a much needed ability given the overall lack of rerolls and focus results being useless (see below for other suggested fixes). Multiple Gunnery Teams would improve offence of huge ships that use multiple hard point upgrades.
Suggested fix. Gunnery Team loses the limited keyword (I would be tempted to apply the same logic to Ordnance Experts but give that one some time first).
Alternative suggested fix. Gunnery Team replace "once per turn” with "once per attack”.
General poor action efficiency and focus.
This is more contentious and will likely garner some resistance. To be fair all I am suggesting is play testing it first. In general (Han being one exception) huge ships struggle to modify attack (and defence dice) because focus results function effectively as blanks. So while huge ship generally roll more dice, they actually perform worse than other attacks. Rerolls for dice are fairly limited and focus results are largely useless. But huge ships have energy that could be used in the place of focus, represented extra effort from the crew. It is a tradeoff between modifying results and powering weapons etc. and makes energy management even more important.
Suggested fix. Huge ships may use Energy from the ships pool to convert focus results to hits or evades.
Things that are harder to fix.
The Raider only has 2 crew slots (perhaps intentionally), but it really restricts it very heavily. Currently Weapons Engineers are close to auto includes on huge ships, perhaps moreso now with Ordnance boats becoming available.
Easy fix. Give the Raider a title that lets it take another crew slot. Maybe too late for this.
Suggested fix. Huge ships may have any number of blue Target Lock tokens, each red token must be on a different ship. Makes Targeting Coordinator slightly better (as it is currently overshadowed bit by Weapons Engineer). You would currently be better off taking the Automated Protocols and using Coordinate than you would using the Targeting Coordinator.
Alternative suggested fix. Add rule to Huge ship target lock rules. "When you are instructed to discard a Target Lock token, do not discard it.” Commentary, obviously this is super powerful and couldn’t be conceivably comboed with some of the other ideas above (particularly the energy = focus one). It may well make Ordnance boats too powerful. But then again if you get TLed by an Epic ship you deserve to die :)
Those of some of my ideas for fixing some of the little things (some large) in the Epic format. Are there any dire situations that I missed? Ideally I would restrict Epic to have mandatory inclusion of huge ships, but that is tricky at the moment for Scum (hopefully to be resolved soon, though likely not till next Christmas). Not using Epic ships just feels less epic if you know what I mean.
Thoughts?

I think the biggest issue I have seen in epic is the wild inaccuracy of epic ships. They sling 4-5 dice but can't hit the broad side of a barn without focus available. Weapons engineer helps this somewhat but Han becomes must include for rebels and imps have no answer for that. In my opinion epics need a lot of tweaking. You are dead on With Your assessment of some of the epic problems.

None of these imo are fix needed! Exclamation point emphasis.

Han is 2 points of much better utility than carrying Esege around. (Although ok as a TLT spammer too).

Comms Booster spam with Biggs -> Again, not that big of a deal. ...

Annoying as hell.

Can you target a huge ship if you can target Biggs?

Gunnery Teams add more points. You can do better things than a 2nd gunnery team, no errata is needed.

I have a very effective Raider build that doesn't use that crew. Use your head. There's a few options.

Action economy is actually alright. There are strong ways of making the ships viable.

Ordnance is going to be a cool thing soon too.

The only thing atm that I think might need a fix is how 300pts of fighters usually will kill a huge/escort with ease.

The only thing atm that I think might need a fix is how 300pts of fighters usually will kill a huge/escort with ease.

This is kinda the point. At the moment Huge ships aren't scary at all. Some of the suggested fixes are almost entirely to make huge ships more cost effective.

The fact that the most efficient method of killing ships is by running them over with a huge ship (which I am assuming is what you are referring to) really pushes home how terribly implemented the Huge ships are.

I think you fundamentally seem to misunderstand my position. Yes there are viable options, for example Han is a great addition to a huge ship, but the point is that he is one of the only options to make a viable damage dealing Corvette. Many of the suggestions I made are there to actually expand the number of viable options for all the huge ships. The fact that there are some viable options already does not mean that they shouldn't make some easy tweaks to make a lot more viable options.

The only thing atm that I think might need a fix is how 300pts of fighters usually will kill a huge/escort with ease.

???

That is BECAUSE of all the problems he outlined. Huge ships are far weaker than an equivalent point value of small ships.

Edited by Forgottenlore

I`m part of an epic league and have yet to lose a match while piloting the Raider. That is both against other huge ships and against swarm type lists. I do deploy my asteriods and fleet in order to make it much harder for an opponent to rush me on the first round, however.

Biggs can't protect a huge ship.

Not seeing the problem with Esage, either. It's a 28-point ship, 31 with a Recon Specialist, and even more if you want to use him for more than passing tokens. That's comparable to what the Empire gets from Jonus, but at a much higher squad cost.

In so far Epic has suffered greatly from a lack of options, especially in the modification department with the raider previously having no options.

I could jump on the Energy being used as a focus once per attack bandwagon. While good, it is still a balancing act of accuracy vs being able to shoot or perform energy header cards.

I'm still working through it in my mind but so far have torpedoes and missles on a huge ship has some SEVERE disadvantages to it. Namely the range limitations. Range 2-3 or 1-2 isn't going to be game breaking nor earth shattering ESPECIALLY considering there is no systems slot on huge ships to retain target locks to be firing missles like crazy.

I demand another Hard point for hugeships from ffg. The 3 choices available just dont do it for me. There needs to be more range 4 and 5 to epic in my humble opinion.

Biggs can't protect a huge ship.

Are you addressing the 1st post? Because in the section he fals about Biggs the OP said

"You pretty much have to try and kill the huge ship first. "

How does 3 Comms boosters give biggs 3 focus tokens the first time you use it on biggs all stress tokens are gone nog leaving any stress to remove the second time? Or is it he does not need to be stressed for it to work if so that is what needs fixing not making the card limited

I'm not really seeing the issues. But again, not fully into Epic. But I'm really, really not seeing the issue with Esege and Comm's Booster. Should they also look at Jonus while they are at it?

Honestly, aside from the Raider/CR90 not being worth it in general (vs fighters), the only issue I have in Epic is that the Raider is vastly superior to the CR90 point for point that it makes the CR90 not very attractive at all.

Not seeing the problem with Esage, either. It's a 28-point ship, 31 with a Recon Specialist, and even more if you want to use him for more than passing tokens. That's comparable to what the Empire gets from Jonus, but at a much higher squad cost.

The difference is that huge ships can already get rerolls via target locks but all the cards that help huge ships modify focus results (Esage and Han crew) are rebel only. Rebels also have Roark to let the corvette fire at the highest possible PS.

Honestly, aside from the Raider/CR90 not being worth it in general (vs fighters), the only issue I have in Epic is that the Raider is vastly superior to the CR90 point for point that it makes the CR90 not very attractive at all.

I don't think the Raider is that much better. I think it was better designed in regards to its upgrade slots and their locations but the CR 90 has alot going for it. Especially when you have Jan Ors boosting your primary weapon along with its normal plus 1 die for an energy.

The CR90 has, in my experience against it, been a very formidable craft. It is particularly good at dismantling Raiders, Firesprays, Decimators, Shuttles... the list is fairly long but anything 2 Agility or lower has to been mindful or suffer some serious injury or possible death.

If you run Biggs in epic, you are an @$$.

Edited by gamblertuba

If you run Biggs in epic, you are an @$$.

Honestly, meh. I have the same feeling for him in both 100 pt match ups and 400. It's 25pts of **** I have to kill anyway so why not make him first?

In so far Epic has suffered greatly from a lack of options, especially in the modification department with the raider previously having no options.

I could jump on the Energy being used as a focus once per attack bandwagon. While good, it is still a balancing act of accuracy vs being able to shoot or perform energy header cards.

I'm still working through it in my mind but so far have torpedoes and missles on a huge ship has some SEVERE disadvantages to it. Namely the range limitations. Range 2-3 or 1-2 isn't going to be game breaking nor earth shattering ESPECIALLY considering there is no systems slot on huge ships to retain target locks to be firing missles like crazy.

I demand another Hard point for hugeships from ffg. The 3 choices available just dont do it for me. There needs to be more range 4 and 5 to epic in my humble opinion.

Yeah I agree, we could really do with some double turbolasers... On that note I was super disappointed with the lack elegance shown with the Single Laser Turret. Hmm, this is too difficult to make it work on the other ships due to the magic blue line and 360 attacks. What do we do, just make it Gozanti only, lame. That reeks of poor design. Don't get wrong it is a good card, but clunky given they needed to ship restrict it because they couldn't make it viable for the other ships. They could have just made it a primary and it wouldn't have been a problem to be honest (though I respect the reasons for including a hard point on the ship).

How does 3 Comms boosters give biggs 3 focus tokens the first time you use it on biggs all stress tokens are gone nog leaving any stress to remove the second time? Or is it he does not need to be stressed for it to work if so that is what needs fixing not making the card limited

The stress removal is an effect, not a cost, thus there is no compulsory stress removal. Typically it is better to avoid costs like that as it decreases versatility. In this case Biggs can get lots of focus (which is only really problematic when paired with some of the other cards I mentioned). In of itself Comms Booster is not overpowered (and in fact one of the best Epic cards). I like parsimony and the easiest way to avoid the abuse and keep it a viable cards is simply making it Limited.

I'm not really seeing the issues. But again, not fully into Epic. But I'm really, really not seeing the issue with Esege and Comm's Booster. Should they also look at Jonus while they are at it?

Antigrapist covered this really well, but it is really the synergy effect of been able to modify with both rerolls and focus that is largely the problem. Jonus is good, as is Howlrunner (for the primary, perhaps better even), but have you tried keeping a ship within range 1 of an epic ship without it being crushed? It is rather difficult.

I say this in jest, but there is an awful lot of truth to it, focus/TL is the most the overpowered combo in X-wing. But it isn't a problem in standard play because everyone has access to it, currently in Epic only Rebels have access to it. Now do you see the problem?

How does 3 Comms boosters give biggs 3 focus tokens the first time you use it on biggs all stress tokens are gone nog leaving any stress to remove the second time? Or is it he does not need to be stressed for it to work if so that is what needs fixing not making the card limited

The stress removal is an effect, not a cost, thus there is no compulsory stress removal. Typically it is better to avoid costs like that as it decreases versatility. In this case Biggs can get lots of focus (which is only really problematic when paired with some of the other cards I mentioned). In of itself Comms Booster is not overpowered (and in fact one of the best Epic cards). I like parsimony and the easiest way to avoid the abuse and keep it a viable cards is simply making it limited to

One of the problems I have with making it limited is I like running 3 y wings next to my transport having them do a 4 forward and getting a focus makes it really fun to fly limiting the card just to nerf biggs would cost more to other ships in the long run

Honestly, aside from the Raider/CR90 not being worth it in general (vs fighters), the only issue I have in Epic is that the Raider is vastly superior to the CR90 point for point that it makes the CR90 not very attractive at all.

I don't think the Raider is that much better. I think it was better designed in regards to its upgrade slots and their locations but the CR 90 has alot going for it. Especially when you have Jan Ors boosting your primary weapon along with its normal plus 1 die for an energy.

The CR90 has, in my experience against it, been a very formidable craft. It is particularly good at dismantling Raiders, Firesprays, Decimators, Shuttles... the list is fairly long but anything 2 Agility or lower has to been mindful or suffer some serious injury or possible death.

+1 Die vs a whole extra attack is not even close IMO. The few times I have flown them against each other the Raider's improved Arcs and ability to double shot innate usually means the CR90 just gets wrecked.

But I do suppose it is fluffy that the Empire has better Capitals.

I cant see any problem with the above cards and I play Epic Regularly lately.

If you spend all your energy on comms booster to give a small ship a few extra focus tokens, how are you gonna fire anything other than your main guns.

Not to mention in the later game when you are hurting, any energy using upgrades are ballast.

Esege again is not really a problem either. In fact I will rarely bring 1 evade dice ships in epic games.

Range 4-5 weapons will kill them before they do much to justify the points you spent on them.

Han crew is a far better option for the Rebels imo.

Empire is not lacking in that field either. You can re-roll both your main and secondary weapons if you bring

Howls and Jonus and Howls tends to survive longer than 1 evade ships.

I say this in jest, but there is an awful lot of truth to it, focus/TL is the most the overpowered combo in X-wing. But it isn't a problem in standard play because everyone has access to it, currently in Epic only Rebels have access to it.

+1 Die vs a whole extra attack is not even close IMO. The few times I have flown them against each other the Raider's improved Arcs and ability to double shot innate usually means the CR90 just gets wrecked.

If you spend all your energy on comms booster to give a small ship a few extra focus tokens, how are you gonna fire anything other than your main guns.

Simple. Choose a ship without guns!

Thats where I would put him too if I would bring him, but then you have to play with an Epic ship that stays in the back behind your small ships and has only 1 action available.

The only thing atm that I think might need a fix is how 300pts of fighters usually will kill a huge/escort with ease.

ASSAULT MISSILE RAIDER REPORTING IN!

No, really, it's going to be great.

Especially when there's a Biggs sitting there...