... assuming you don't have any turrets and only 2 aces like Soontir & Vader or Corran & Poe (let's ignore the third ship of these lists for for this example) and face something like 7 ship imps or BBBBZ for example.

Would like to hear your thoughts about this issue, since I couldn't really come up with a perfect setup so far.

MS Paint time again! My approach would be to split the aces into corners. The right one I would only make short moves and see in which direction he's heading. If he goes into his direction I'd make a boost to the left and let him get chased. If he goes the other direction I'll boost right and follow him.

The left one would start with a long 5 straight for example and try to get into his flank or behind him. If he turns into his direction I'll make a k-turn the following turn and try to get away from there.

The main issue here, is that it's pretty hard to point some guns at him. Even if the left Ace can get behind him, all it takes is a turn or k-turn of him and the ace is facing a lot of points pointing at him.

I also tried a few times getting into range 1 of them, so I can roll out of arcs more easily, but especially if he has block himself all it takes is a bad block and the ace is gone.

Since I got some really good advice here recently, I'm really looking forward getting some again! Much appreciated as always, thanks a lot!

Use big asteroids.

Force swarm into anusteroids for severe butt-blaze.

Swarm that loses coherency and formation is a bad swarm, ready to be takena part.

Use big asteroids.

Force swarm into anusteroids for severe butt-blaze.

Swarm that loses coherency and formation is a bad swarm, ready to be takena part.

Sure, totally agree here. However a competent swarm player will know that himself, and either avoid getting split up or just ignore the obstacles with one ship once and simply fly over i to stay in formation (B's for examply don't really bother that much, Ties fore sure do).

Make aggressive moves and try to set up your moves so you only take one shot from the swarm before flying past them. With aces, you kinda want to shove your way into R1, then barrel roll to the side of the group, then boost out of their arcs. In essence, get in behind them, because then they have to K and actionless 2 dice attacks are not much of a threat to any good ace.

Yeah, don't fly straight at them, and don't let them stay in formation. Approach at an angle, try to make them fly through the obstacles, try to make them split up.

The thing you should remember is that experienced swarm players are known for finding the moment to split and block your path, and then things might get UGLY and fast.

+1 attack die is especially tasty when you have 2 base.

I'd recommend spreading out the asteroids. If they are too close together, then the swarm will just avoid them all together. If you spread them out, then they become tools all over the place to work with.

Now, this is actual tactics beyond list building and I'm happy to see it. To be honest, though, it can really depend on your list and what your strengths are. Do you have a bomb dropper? Do you have some flankers? What are your strengths? I guess it's a matter of finding out how your list deals with them that is the key. There isn't necessarily one way for all lists to deal with them.

You only need to kill 1 ship to take the lead, Swarm players know this, as they are fighting the clock from Turn 0 and onwards.

So do that and drag them through the rocks whenever possible.

don't fly against swarms much but perhaps redline or some other bomber with assault missiles and perhaps ion torps

don't fly against swarms much but perhaps redline or some other bomber with assault missiles and perhaps ion torps

Swarms tear through low-agility ships. Area damage isn't a bad idea, but there aren't many upgrades that are cost-effective that do AoE.

With aces against swarms, you just have to not get shot. Dodge every arc you can; shoot only when no one is returning fire. Use the asteroids to cut off flight lanes; make it so that the swarm player can fly through the rocks, but then can't make the hard turn to face you head-on (or something like that).

You can also use bait while flankers hit. Set up like you want to joust with some of your list, but then turn hard and get out of the way before they come at you. Let the others flank in.

I'd recommend spreading out the asteroids. If they are too close together, then the swarm will just avoid them all together. If you spread them out, then they become tools all over the place to work with.

Nothing personal, but I disagree with this strategy. I feel the best bet against a swarm is a nice dense cluster of asteroids. It doesn't have to be in the middle of the board, hell you can even chain your three rocks off of one of corner rocks that the opponent will place. The reason I think a dense cluster of asteroids works best against swarms is because of the nature of forward-arced ships. They must fly towards each other in order to shoot, so you can use that to force them into the rocks. If you place your ship in such a way that there are rocks between you and the opponent's ships, if he wants to shoot you, he must fly through the rocks to get a shot. If he wants to avoid the rocks, he has to give up his shot and go around. Forcing your opponent to make a difficult choice (so that hopefully he makes the wrong choice) wins games.

Generally speaking though, other than the advice about trying to force the swarm player through the rocks, there's not much you can say specifically as advice. I mean you kind of have to tailor your approach based on what the swarm is doing. Also you have to adjust your flying based on your opponent. Some swarm players are super aggressive and others are more cautious. You can't fly exactly the same against both.

So for me, this feels like one of those 'you gotta learn by doing' kind of things. Fly against swarms. Even practice against them by yourself on VASSAL or your kitchen table (to see what the swarm options are based on your tactics---getting inside your opponent's head and thinking from their perspective is always a great way to out fly a particular build).

Do or do not, there is no try.

As an Imperial swarm player, I start licking my chops when I see low Agility ships such as Decimators, B-Wings (not a swarm of them though, Falcons, X-Wings, etc... If you are 2 Agility or less, even a 2 Attack ship like TIE Fighter can chip HP away at an alarming rate. Howlrunner just makes a swarm that much better. Then once the enemy is engaged, I can use ships to block and deny actions while still having enough ships to maintain fire on the target. As a swarm player you have to pick a target and concentrate fire until it dies.

What I don't like seeing are high Agility arc dodgers and other higher PS swarms. Arc dodgers make it hard to maintain fire on target and higher PS means that I will lose ships without the ability to return fire. As soon as swarms start losing ships they fall apart.

Also, swarms are mentally taxing to play. You have to keep them in formation and you will lose ships.

If you make the asteroids too dense, only a dense swarm player will actually try to fly through it. I've played swarms before where I just refuse to engage the enemy that way. They have to kill me just as much as I have to kill them. If no one makes a shot, then no one wins. Swarm players are able to dictate where the battle happens just as much. If they don't take the bait for going through the asteroids, then it doesn't work.

Also, if they don't go through the asteroids at when you want, it leaves a lot of open table space for the swarm to fly in. Spreading them out gives you more of a chance to create opportunities to break the swarm up.

Also, swarms are mentally taxing to play. You have to keep them in formation and you will lose ships.

You only have to keep them in formation if you use Howlrunner. You don't need to otherwise. I think people get locked into formation flying too often and will fall victim to good arc dodgers too much. I've done well with actually swarming players with Ties. The bumpage and lots of R1 shots works well.

Use ruthlessness with Assault Missiles.

for reals, try to stay at range, until you've weakened or dropped a few. Big rocks, and evasive maneuvers.

From the perspective of a swarm player - the ideal strategy is to arc-dodge the hell out of them and take advantage of a swarm's low PS.

Obviously that's easier said than done, but fighting in dense asteroid fields (as suggested) will help break that formation.

It's all about compartmentalizing the swarm. Engaging 1-2 at a time is fine. Engaging 4+ becomes dangerous. Also range 3 is your friend.

Also, swarms are mentally taxing to play. You have to keep them in formation and you will lose ships.

You only have to keep them in formation if you use Howlrunner. You don't need to otherwise. I think people get locked into formation flying too often and will fall victim to good arc dodgers too much. I've done well with actually swarming players with Ties. The bumpage and lots of R1 shots works well.

of course Howl isn't the only one. Eps Leader is another one you want to keep close to. I'm sure there are others.

As a very inexperienced player this seems to make sense to me. If I have multiple arc facing every which way not only is it difficult for my opponent to avoid them all; it is also a lot harder to anticipate where my ships are heading in the furball. The flip side is I totally understand the "focus fire" concept and it seems that if you sacrifice the formation that becomes harder to do if your opponent still has multiple ships.

Yes, the swarm is better if you focus fire, but you lose out on a few other things if you blindingly stick to formation. You can shoot people out to cause bump issues or try to get more shots on folk if you break formation. I've just seen some people become a bit slavish to flying in formation when it's actually working against them.

I never advocate blindly sticking to a premeditated strategy. You have to be able to adapt to situations as they develop. Generally, I stick to a strict formation when I can predict where my enemies will be so I can focus fire. You can usually force a joust with one ship by forcing the issue, Once things become more murky, I shift to a more blocking/spreading out arc strategy.

I find in my swarm play that you end up breaking up at some point and in any case you need arc coverage+convergence on the likely spots they'll land. It's really important in ace vs swarm to do everything not to get bump trapped.

As for asteroid placement against swarms; I like the rocks on my half of the table. The closer the rocks are to your opponent's edge of the table the easier it is for them to be taken into account by the opening moves. Rocks on my half of the table on the other hand tend to get come into play when the swarms is k-turning or after they've been flying around a bit.

Yeah. Let's not talk about building against a swarm. That's easy.

How would you fly 2ace palp vs swarm?

Do any of you run into issues in timed games verse swarms where you end up playing far fewer rounds, since the swarm player has so many more dials and decisions to deal with? I feel like that is an issue I've encountered personally that can kind of throw off my game.

Do any of you run into issues in timed games verse swarms where you end up playing far fewer rounds, since the swarm player has so many more dials and decisions to deal with? I feel like that is an issue I've encountered personally that can kind of throw off my game.

No, but you can tell them kindly to hurry up slightly. Kindly.

As a swarm player I'll usually sometimes ask on some turns for an extra moment.