Must... we... beat... dead.... horses?

Animal cruelty isn't nice.

If it's dead is it animal cruelty anymore? I think it becomes just regular old desecration. I'm Imperial, I don't think we shy from that mere act.

Time to just move on this one and get over it

Oh man I'm so glad that the original purpose of this thread was derailed by people arguing about something we've argued over to no resolution before and we have no power to change.

Yeah, I'll be swimming in those (already have two, another one on the way as a pre-order. Though, maybe I'll sell that third one off), so if it is a good substitute for the XI7 (I note they're both 6 points), then it might be a good alternative.

But is the HTT really a superior substitute. DUR (above) makes a good case against, I think.

I mean I look at it this way:

Most ships have Redirect. Not all, obviously (Raider and Nebulon-B, as I recall, have no Redirects). Generally you will want to Redirect against attacks that cause a lot of damage to keep them off your hull. These are also the kind of attacks you want to Brace against as well. Between the two, Brace is usually the stronger effect. If you are throwing enough blue dice to reliably shut down Brace (like on an ISD-II or Vader rerolling red dice like crazy, an MC80, a ship buffed by Home One, etc.), then the XI7s are superior because you're clubbing the other guy with the locked down accuracy and then cutting off all escape routes with the XI7s.

If your ship cannot reliably count on an Accuracy result, then I'd prefer the HTTs. They effectively make the other player choose between either a decent Brace or using other defense tokens (Evades, Redirects). Bracing vs. HTTs while also using other defense tokens is generally pretty bad and not the kind of thing you should do if you could receive any other attacks doing 4 or more damage later in the turn (as the Brace would be better spent there). HTTs seem like a superior option for ships rolling a lot of red dice solo without a reroll or most specifically, ships rolling a lot of black dice - you can't rely on a Brace there, but it's fair to say you can rely on a hefty helping of damage. I think it's also fair to say that you can rely on the HTTs triggering more frequently overall - only the CR90 lacks a Brace token altogether, every other ship has one (and the Nebulon-B has two!). This isn't to say that makes the HTTs better, just more likely to work (perhaps when they do work they're less useful? I think this is one of those circumstances where only time will tell).

I agree with this. For low accuracy ships (ahem, ahem, you're kiting at long range and don't have Home One ...), HTTs is either a free 75-100% of an accuracy on a brace (depending on whether your opponent uses the gimped brace), or a free 2-3 100% accuracies against all other defense tokens. In some cases, it may also prove more reliable than an accuracy, since ECMs can be exhausted to allow an opponent to ignore an accuracy result, whereas the HTT conditions are absolute (either gimp your brace, or you cannot use your other defense tokens).

Xi7s are basically a free 75-90% accuracy on a redirect (or a pair of redirects), but it doesn't necessarily prevent the brace-redirect combo even with an accuracy (if the target has ECMs), although it gimps it severely. If you're rolling lots of accuracies (ISD II, MC-80s, Vic IIs), Xi7 or Intel Officer are probably better choices (and both can be devastating, although at that point we're talking about +13 points to ship cost, and I'm not sure the combo is necessarily more valuable than say a spare A-wing or X-wing or 1.5 TIEs or 33% of a CR-90/Raider). If you aren't getting many accuracies (or don't want to fish for them), HTTs will be doing automatic work for you, as long as your target has a brace token (similarly, Xi7s do automatic work for you against targets with redirects).

For the OP, I've also been wondering if we're going to see some sort of cyclical effect. My play group is rather small, but I (primarily an imperial player) have already seen everyone switch whole-sale from APs to ECMs, even before I started putting Xi7s on ships. So I've started going over to the HTTs, as a way of getting around the ECMs (because, again, the effect is absolute). No one's made the switch back to APs yet, but that seems like a natural progression, no?

Fortunately it appears from worlds (and from these forums) that there's plenty of variety among the local metas, which should bode well for large tournament play and the health of the game as a whole, I think.

I think if they release cards like Lando, they're expecting people to gamble on taking AP now. You may get lucky and run into no hard counter XI7, or you may get boned.

Hell, the dice often shaft me as much as card interactions do.

I agree with this. For low accuracy ships (ahem, ahem, you're kiting at long range and don't have Home One ...), HTTs is either a free 75-100% of an accuracy on a brace (depending on whether your opponent uses the gimped brace), or a free 2-3 100% accuracies against all other defense tokens. In some cases, it may also prove more reliable than an accuracy, since ECMs can be exhausted to allow an opponent to ignore an accuracy result, whereas the HTT conditions are absolute (either gimp your brace, or you cannot use your other defense tokens).

Xi7s are basically a free 75-90% accuracy on a redirect (or a pair of redirects), but it doesn't necessarily prevent the brace-redirect combo even with an accuracy (if the target has ECMs), although it gimps it severely. If you're rolling lots of accuracies (ISD II, MC-80s, Vic IIs), Xi7 or Intel Officer are probably better choices (and both can be devastating, although at that point we're talking about +13 points to ship cost, and I'm not sure the combo is necessarily more valuable than say a spare A-wing or X-wing or 1.5 TIEs or 33% of a CR-90/Raider). If you aren't getting many accuracies (or don't want to fish for them), HTTs will be doing automatic work for you, as long as your target has a brace token (similarly, Xi7s do automatic work for you against targets with redirects).

For the OP, I've also been wondering if we're going to see some sort of cyclical effect. My play group is rather small, but I (primarily an imperial player) have already seen everyone switch whole-sale from APs to ECMs, even before I started putting Xi7s on ships. So I've started going over to the HTTs, as a way of getting around the ECMs (because, again, the effect is absolute). No one's made the switch back to APs yet, but that seems like a natural progression, no?

Fortunately it appears from worlds (and from these forums) that there's plenty of variety among the local metas, which should bode well for large tournament play and the health of the game as a whole, I think.

I agree with your chain of thought. I expect to see ECMs more in the future once Wave 2 hits due to Home One/Ackbar. Being able to still use that Brace is going to be important and Advanced Projectors are more of a crapshoot depending on the presence or lack of XI7s. HTTs do not care about ECMs whatsoever and are something of a soft counter there.

Of course you can always roll with Intel Officer and XI7s (which is a somewhat popular combination in wave 1), but it relies on sniping the Brace this time around so you can roll through shields with XI7s next time. Sometimes that does work. Other times things don't quite go as planned (you don't do enough damage to actually get the Brace spent, your ship is destroyed before it can pull off that amazing broadside you were hoping for, etc.). It's an expensive combination for sure and I'm not altogether convinced it's superior to the same points spent on bombers to just get damage through the old fashioned way: by doing more of it. Haha.

Must... we... beat... dead.... horses?

Animal cruelty isn't nice.

But I like my meat tender. And, it isn't cruelty if they are already dead.

One has to remember that XI7's needs to be pushing more than 2 damage to be useful. This means with an accuracy you need 3 damage after blocking the brace. This is the main reason I did not take XI7 Turbolasers in Wave 1.

Advanced Projectors compounds this or at least it did with the original ruling with a player needing to have 5 damage while blocking the brace.

Without the brace you need at least 5 damage to punch through 2 damage and to increase that by any degree you would need another odd number higher (7, 9, etc).

In wave 1, there was no ship that reliably did more than 5 damage other than the GSD and that was usually through the use of Assault Concussion Missiles. Since it is not as amazing game as the MC30, it can't take a Turbolaser Upgrade. So unless a player wanted to spend 91 points on a VSD 2 and XI7's, there just was no great method to get 5 damage often enough.

Now, in wave 2.. . With the capacity of Ackbar, MC30c, and the ISD. XI7 Turbolasers have quickly become prevalent as an all purpose Turbolaser upgrade.

Now it's current interaction with Advanced Projectors, it will honestly come down to is the Gladiator is still a threat with Assault Concussion Missiles or not.

Now it's current interaction with Advanced Projectors, it will honestly come down to is the Gladiator is still a threat with Assault Concussion Missiles or not.

Absolutely. it moves fast, incredibly fast with Engine Techs and have black dice for huge damage spikes. The Demolisher title is what makes that boat sing.

Now it's current interaction with Advanced Projectors, it will honestly come down to is the Gladiator is still a threat with Assault Concussion Missiles or not.

Absolutely. it moves fast, incredibly fast with Engine Techs and have black dice for huge damage spikes. The Demolisher title is what makes that boat sing.

Not just that. The biggest difference between the MC30c and the Gladiator is the fact that I can take Xi7's with the first. This is what made Assault Frigates such a threat with Advanced Projectors. Not only did they make learning to play a gunline easier but they allowed players to absorb a salvo or two from a Gladiator at close range and be reasonably safe.

If the MC30c with Xi7's and Assault Concussion missiles had played that role in wave 1 against an Assault Frigate it would have been destroyed much faster and possibly in a single set of shots. I am REALLY thankful that the Gladiator cant take Xi7's. . .

So, after some thinking, the ecosystem really goes like:

AP-xi7-ECM-HTT-IntelOfficer-AP-xi7-ECM-HTT-IntelOfficer-AP-xi7-ECM-HTT-IntelOfficer-AP-xi7-ECM-HTT-IntelOfficer.

One thing to note, however, is even if you've got xi7's and your accuracy gets ECM'd, you've exhausted that defense card while AP's are always functional. Furthermore, since you can only use one of you redirects per attack anyways, you're only down one damage instead of up to 4 with the xi7.

In short, gimme that xi7!

I'm a H9 kinda guy. I'm more bummed out about more people taking ECM now instead of Advanced Projectors.ugh

- Not every ship has brace, most ships have redirect.

Corvette (No Brace)

MC 30 (No Brace)

Nebulon B (No Redirect)

Imperial Raider (No Redirect)

Assault Frigate

MC 80

Gladiator

Victory

Imperial

In conclusion, XI7 over HTT every time due how its simple but powerful effect. In a game where I'm expected to put reliable damage on hull, there's simply no better upgrade.

I tend to agree with this. HTT hits the more powerful defense token, but in a much weaker way. Whereas I've lain so much hurt down with XI7s, and especially Intel Officer. Intel the Brace of a VSD, and what can they do? Discard the Brace? That's pretty desperate, but with only 1 redirect what options do you have sometimes?

I think I'll probably be sticking to XI7s almost all of the time.

- Not every ship has brace, most ships have redirect.

Corvette (No Brace)

MC 30 (No Brace)

Nebulon B (No Redirect)

Imperial Raider (No Redirect)

Assault Frigate

MC 80

Gladiator

Victory

Imperial

Interestingly, the same amount of ships are lacking Redirects versus lacking Braces... However, its the general lack of Nebulon Bs in popular lists that seem to be giving us the idea that its the other way around.

Also the fact that Raiders aren't in yet (and neither are MC30s so the list is still balanced.)

I think the Imperial dependency on redirect (especially for VSDs) also gives a greater impression of their overall importance.

- Not every ship has brace, most ships have redirect.

Corvette (No Brace)

MC 30 (No Brace)

Nebulon B (No Redirect)

Imperial Raider (No Redirect)

Assault Frigate

MC 80

Gladiator

Victory

Imperial

Interestingly, the same amount of ships are lacking Redirects versus lacking Braces... However, its the general lack of Nebulon Bs in popular lists that seem to be giving us the idea that its the other way around.

Excellent, so in addition, XI7s are better at fight against the meta and expected meta.

I'm a H9 kinda guy. I'm more bummed out about more people taking ECM now instead of Advanced Projectors.ugh

Unfortunately the advent of Home One (for less points than H-9s, with the potential to affect far more ships, and far more dependable--can spend on blanks) is not going to help the cause of H-9s. Sure, it requires you to run an MC-80 (and some players won't take it for that reason), but it's a far more efficient use of points to run with Home One instead. At least for the Rebs.

Ironically, I also think it's the advent of Home One (coupled with higher damage output from the new ships, Ackbar, etc) that's pushing everyone towards using ECMs, to the detriment of the H-9s. So it will be interesting to see whether we settle into a landscape predominated by Home One /ECM, or if there will be a shift towards upgrades that block/mitigate defense tokens without permitting an ECM counter:

• Intel Officer from Wave I (though it has to be exhausted)
• HTTs, though it's opponent's choice what defense token(s) get affected/barred
• NK-7s/Nym to strip tokens outright (depends on random chance)
• Overload Pulse + Avenger to prevent the use of defense tokens outright (though limited to a single attack, requires multiple ships, and is also still dependent on chance)

I'm sure there are others as well.

Overload Pulse and Avenger isn't reliant on chance if Screed is invoked.

That's my plan, anyway.

I'm thinking:

ISD2, Avenger, Screed, XX-9 turbolasers, SW-7 ion cannons, gunnery teams

Cheap VSD1 carrier

2 raiders with overload pulse

TIEs

Overload Pulse and Avenger isn't reliant on chance if Screed is invoked.

That's my plan, anyway.

I'm thinking:

ISD2, Avenger, Screed, XX-9 turbolasers, SW-7 ion cannons, gunnery teams

Cheap VSD1 carrier

2 raiders with overload pulse

TIEs

I've seen this combination proposed before and while I see the appeal, it feels like you're not really using Screed as well as you could be (as opposed to the usual ACM spam or perhaps even some hijinks with NK-7 Ion Cannons) and that you've got a substantial amount of list built around the Avenger + Overload Pulse combination. Please let us know how it goes, but I've got my doubts...

Overload Pulse and Avenger isn't reliant on chance if Screed is invoked.

That's my plan, anyway.

I'm thinking:

ISD2, Avenger, Screed, XX-9 turbolasers, SW-7 ion cannons, gunnery teams

Cheap VSD1 carrier

2 raiders with overload pulse

TIEs

Well, it potentially is reliant on chance if Mon Mothma is involved, and your target has an evade, and the target makes you reroll your Screeded-crit. Or if you only rolled/landed one blue crit, and you are at medium range and a non-Mon Mothma ship uses an evade to have you reroll. Or if you are attacking with Overload Pulse from the side-arc of a Raider II from medium range/other situations where you are only rolling one attack dice (since Screed requires that you cancel a die to set another die's face to a crit).

But otherwise, yes. Screed does not require that you rely on chance.

Come back to life!

Ok, joking aside. How has XI7 Turbolasers affected your meta?

XI7s are still my goto. They're great.

Come back to life!

Ok, joking aside. How has XI7 Turbolasers affected your meta?

APs are not completely gone, but they are no longer on every f***ing AF.

XI7s have definitely made a comeback. I even stick one on my ISD, which would not have been the case a while back,