I'm picking up on a recent episode of Intensify Forward Firepower , which discussed the long-storied duality of the Advanced Projectors vs. the XI7 Turbolasers .

As an exclusively Imperial player, I essentially ignored the debate, because I didn't have either of these in my collection, and Advanced Projectors were the type of upgrade that I couldn't take anyway. There was also the fact that I argued that you could safely collect only one faction and have sufficient range of choice to play competitively.

And then I ran into the AP spam. Three @^%^#$%ing Assault Frigates, all loaded with APs. Not just once, but time and time again. So, I finally broke down and bought a Nebulon B to get my hands on an XI7 (and another Intel Officer).

That history told, I'm now wondering if these two cards create a reaction with one another. Will more XI7s hitting the table cause fewer APs to appear as the XI7s nullify much of their utility? (People adapting their builds to their environment.) Will that then also reduce the need for XI7s, making them appear less often, and therefore more likely to make APs better again?

If not, should I get yet another Nebulon B to get yet another XI7 turbolaser? I already have my Space Rocks , so I don't really need more Neb B wrecks decorating my debris fields.

Or you just get the ISD with Heavy Turbolaser Turrets. All the redirects in the world wont help for long if they can't brace

The problem* is that the Advanced Projectors are only good (bordering on great, depending) when there aren't enough XI7s floating around your meta. XI7s are good so long as people like to spend Redirect tokens to not die (especially when the Brace gets locked down by Accuracy), they just get even better as a counter to Advanced Projectors. Hence I don't really see at the moment a state where XI7 use wanes, perhaps excepting how the Heavy Turbolaser Turrets shake out. And even then, you're effectively choosing between "useful Brace and garbage Redirect" or "garbage Brace and useful Redirect" depending.

*may or may not actually be a problem, see the grumpiest guy in your local meta for details.

I think because xi7 completely nerfs AP's, xi7's are going to be the TL of choice for the big boys (ISD's and MC80's).

I actually think it's pretty unbalanced: since xi7's hard counter AP's and yet are still quite useful on their own, there's pretty much no reason not to take them (save for not owning enough Neb B's). As others have also mentioned, given that most ships you're trying to drill into have multiple redirects but one brace, it pairs TONS better with intel officer/accuracies than HTT's do.

The XI7s are among the most cost-effective upgrades in the entire game.

They are the undisputed best weapon to have if you have a TL slot.

Yeah X17s are easily one of the most cost-effective upgrades in the game as most ships have a redirect and it's one of the best ways to punch damage through. It also makes any accuracies you roll that much more valuable as you can take your pick from their evades or braces and ignore having to 'accuracy' their redirect unless it will ensure the kill.

They're good regardless of whether the opponent has AP or not.

Edit - Ninja'd by 10 seconds haha

Or you just get the ISD with Heavy Turbolaser Turrets. All the redirects in the world wont help for long if they can't brace

Yeah, I'll be swimming in those (already have two, another one on the way as a pre-order. Though, maybe I'll sell that third one off), so if it is a good substitute for the XI7 (I note they're both 6 points), then it might be a good alternative.

But is the HTT really a superior substitute. DUR (above) makes a good case against, I think.

The problem*

[...]

*may or may not actually be a problem, see the grumpiest guy in your local meta for details.

Unless I'm the grump, then that would be Lyraeus - who's a grump occasionally - but he's also the one most responsible for the AP spam.

The problem* is that the Advanced Projectors are only good (bordering on great, depending) when there aren't enough XI7s floating around your meta. XI7s are good so long as people like to spend Redirect tokens to not die (especially when the Brace gets locked down by Accuracy), they just get even better as a counter to Advanced Projectors. Hence I don't really see at the moment a state where XI7 use wanes, perhaps excepting how the Heavy Turbolaser Turrets shake out. And even then, you're effectively choosing between "useful Brace and garbage Redirect" or "garbage Brace and useful Redirect" depending.

Until recently, there really have not been that many XI7s floating around. Part of that is because it seems like people who have them (Rebels) mostly plan to face Imperials (who don't have them). Hmmm, maybe I need to get my fellow Imperials to also buy Neb-Bs in order to bring more XI7s to the table.

In my meta, the Imperial players do have a certain level of solidarity with one another, which I don't really see among the Rebels.

Figures.

Yeah, I'll be swimming in those (already have two, another one on the way as a pre-order. Though, maybe I'll sell that third one off), so if it is a good substitute for the XI7 (I note they're both 6 points), then it might be a good alternative.

But is the HTT really a superior substitute. DUR (above) makes a good case against, I think.

I mean I look at it this way:

Most ships have Redirect. Not all, obviously (Raider and Nebulon-B, as I recall, have no Redirects). Generally you will want to Redirect against attacks that cause a lot of damage to keep them off your hull. These are also the kind of attacks you want to Brace against as well. Between the two, Brace is usually the stronger effect. If you are throwing enough blue dice to reliably shut down Brace (like on an ISD-II or Vader rerolling red dice like crazy, an MC80, a ship buffed by Home One, etc.), then the XI7s are superior because you're clubbing the other guy with the locked down accuracy and then cutting off all escape routes with the XI7s.

If your ship cannot reliably count on an Accuracy result, then I'd prefer the HTTs. They effectively make the other player choose between either a decent Brace or using other defense tokens (Evades, Redirects). Bracing vs. HTTs while also using other defense tokens is generally pretty bad and not the kind of thing you should do if you could receive any other attacks doing 4 or more damage later in the turn (as the Brace would be better spent there). HTTs seem like a superior option for ships rolling a lot of red dice solo without a reroll or most specifically, ships rolling a lot of black dice - you can't rely on a Brace there, but it's fair to say you can rely on a hefty helping of damage. I think it's also fair to say that you can rely on the HTTs triggering more frequently overall - only the CR90 lacks a Brace token altogether, every other ship has one (and the Nebulon-B has two!). This isn't to say that makes the HTTs better, just more likely to work (perhaps when they do work they're less useful? I think this is one of those circumstances where only time will tell).

Neither upgrade is much good on little plink plink ships, however. You need to be doing enough damage for the desire to spend more than one defense token to be worthwhile. For the smaller ships, Turbolaser Reroute Circuits or maybe even Slaved Turrets would be preferable. On something like an Assault Frigate, you might even prefer Enhanced Armament if you're using Gunnery Teams. Up to you.

Until recently, there really have not been that many XI7s floating around. Part of that is because it seems like people who have them (Rebels) mostly plan to face Imperials (who don't have them). Hmmm, maybe I need to get my fellow Imperials to also buy Neb-Bs in order to bring more XI7s to the table.

They are fairly good against most people but paradoxically they're best against Rebels because Rebels are relying more on their shields to stay alive than Imperials. Rebels are also the only faction (barring the ISD-II) that relies on Advanced Projectors.

In my meta, the Imperial players do have a certain level of solidarity with one another, which I don't really see among the Rebels.

Figures.

What did you expect from flaky terrorist separatists?

My Neb B's laugh at your XI7's - muhahahaha!

They are still good though. Not sure why they flipped with the FAQ on AP - I thought it was fine with the previous ruling.

My Neb B's laugh at your XI7's - muhahahaha!

They are still good though. Not sure why they flipped with the FAQ on AP - I thought it was fine with the previous ruling.

I sort of am the "grump" in the area. I am also in the process of using AP's and ECM's less.

Yeah... AP was making the frigates pretty **** effective. It helped mediocre players like me finish with wins at Sullust!!!

Ok ok.... 3rd places. Twice.

Yeah... AP was making the frigates pretty **** effective. It helped mediocre players like me finish with wins at Sullust!!!

Ok ok.... 3rd places. Twice.

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

Here's the thing: before the reversal, you saw a paradigm of AP being amazing when not facing XI7, and worse but still useful against them; and XI7 was amazing when not facing AP, and worse but still useful against them.

Now, the paradigm is that AP is amazing when not facing XI7, and completely negated against them; and XI7 is amazing when not facing AP, and *even better* when facing them.

This decision did not balance the two upgrades. It skyrocketed the value of one, at the cost of completely devaluing the other. Guess when you gotta sell them Neb packs...

My Neb B's laugh at your XI7's - muhahahaha!

They are still good though. Not sure why they flipped with the FAQ on AP - I thought it was fine with the previous ruling.

The flip was to try and balance out Assault Frigates

It also restored the paradigm to fit with their general rule (if something says you can't, you can't, no matter what else says you can). The original ruling was the sole exception to that and thus very unintuitive.

My Neb B's laugh at your XI7's - muhahahaha!

They are still good though. Not sure why they flipped with the FAQ on AP - I thought it was fine with the previous ruling.

The flip was to try and balance out Assault Frigates

It also restored the paradigm to fit with their general rule (if something says you can't, you can't, no matter what else says you can). The original ruling was the sole exception to that and thus very unintuitive.

Not relevant.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192109-xi7-vs-foresight/?p=1867662

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

Here's the thing: before the reversal, you saw a paradigm of AP being amazing when not facing XI7, and worse but still useful against them; and XI7 was amazing when not facing AP, and worse but still useful against them.

Now, the paradigm is that AP is amazing when not facing XI7, and completely negated against them; and XI7 is amazing when not facing AP, and *even better* when facing them.

This decision did not balance the two upgrades. It skyrocketed the value of one, at the cost of completely devaluing the other. Guess when you gotta sell them Neb packs...

Right. And if they reversed the ruling (again) back to where AP can distribute 1 damage max to all sides, I would be fine with that. It's a 6 point upgrade after all.

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

Here's the thing: before the reversal, you saw a paradigm of AP being amazing when not facing XI7, and worse but still useful against them; and XI7 was amazing when not facing AP, and worse but still useful against them.

Now, the paradigm is that AP is amazing when not facing XI7, and completely negated against them; and XI7 is amazing when not facing AP, and *even better* when facing them.

This decision did not balance the two upgrades. It skyrocketed the value of one, at the cost of completely devaluing the other. Guess when you gotta sell them Neb packs...

The original ruling was made to balance the two.

The revised ruling was made to balance Wave 2.

Some observations from around my parts:

I sill don't see a lot of XI7s

AP are just as useful as they always were on AFs that need to eat black dice (yes, I'm looking at you Demolisher)

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

Here's the thing: before the reversal, you saw a paradigm of AP being amazing when not facing XI7, and worse but still useful against them; and XI7 was amazing when not facing AP, and worse but still useful against them.

Now, the paradigm is that AP is amazing when not facing XI7, and completely negated against them; and XI7 is amazing when not facing AP, and *even better* when facing them.

This decision did not balance the two upgrades. It skyrocketed the value of one, at the cost of completely devaluing the other. Guess when you gotta sell them Neb packs...

The original ruling was made to balance the two.

The revised ruling was made to balance Wave 2.

As for balancing Wave 2, I find it hard to believe that dramatically increasing the power of a card that gets better as more damage is dealt addresses an imbalance introduced by a wave that increases the amount of damage being dealt.

Some observations from around my parts:

I sill don't see a lot of XI7s

AP are just as useful as they always were on AFs that need to eat black dice (yes, I'm looking at you Demolisher)

This warms my heart. Seriously. Because I haven't seen an AP on a ship here since the ruling. So I'm glad to hear they're still getting use in some places.

I think that for balance sakes they reverse the ruling of XI7 vs. AP. Right now it makes that 6 point upgrade completely worthless.

Here's the thing: before the reversal, you saw a paradigm of AP being amazing when not facing XI7, and worse but still useful against them; and XI7 was amazing when not facing AP, and worse but still useful against them.

Now, the paradigm is that AP is amazing when not facing XI7, and completely negated against them; and XI7 is amazing when not facing AP, and *even better* when facing them.

This decision did not balance the two upgrades. It skyrocketed the value of one, at the cost of completely devaluing the other. Guess when you gotta sell them Neb packs...

The original ruling was made to balance the two.

The revised ruling was made to balance Wave 2.

Even if that's true--and I don't know that it is, but giving you the benefit of the doubt for the sake of argument--nothing I said is untrue. Maybe FFG decided they had released an OP card and used the ambiguity (yes, there is grammatical ambiguity on the XI7 card) to retroactively nerf it. Be that as it may, the fact remains that the re-ruling introduced imbalance between the two cards where there was none before. XI7 is now an objectively (and substantially) better card than AP, for the same point cost.

As for balancing Wave 2, I find it hard to believe that dramatically increasing the power of a card that gets better as more damage is dealt addresses an imbalance introduced by a wave that increases the amount of damage being dealt.

I'm inferring from the FAQ wording. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

The original ruling was made (against the card text) explicitly to balance the two upgrades. From that perspective, and at that time, it was the right ruling.

But I don't think that balance between the cards was their goal with the re-ruling. It was balance between the factions. Until Wave 2 hits, only one faction can take APs, and it's a huge upgrade. Counting Wave 2 one variant of one Imperial ship (the most expensive ship in the game) can possibly take the upgrade. Compare this to 4/5 ships that rebels can equip APs on.

Let's also remember that XI7s favor rebels, too. For starters they are included only in a rebel expansion (limiting access to Imperial fleets in general.) They were partially nullified only by an upgrade that only rebels had access to, and redirect are far more important to Imperial players than they are to rebel players (Imperials can't get ECM to Brace through an accuracy, and so 50% of their Wave 1 ships depend pretty heavily on redirect.)

This also continues in Wave 2. The most expensive rebel ship will also lean very heavily on its single Brace token - but it's cheaper than the ISD-II, and has two defensive retrofit slots, so it never needs to choose between super charging it's redirect, and protecting it's Brace.

Add in that shields are cheaper/easier to repair and you see that balance between these two cards causes a pretty significant imbalance in the two factions. Making XI7s more powerful doesn't harm Imperial players, but helps to balance the significant advantage that AP gives to rebels.

Even still XI7s are limited, at least slightly, to Imperial players.

I'm inferring from the FAQ wording. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

The original ruling was made (against the card text) explicitly to balance the two upgrades. From that perspective, and at that time, it was the right ruling.

Ugh. . . You are apart of the "cannot" group. Why does everyone get that part wrong. . .

The issue was the word "Hull zones". Plural. That was where the ambiguity came from.

I'm inferring from the FAQ wording. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

The original ruling was made (against the card text) explicitly to balance the two upgrades. From that perspective, and at that time, it was the right ruling.

Ugh. . . You are apart of the "cannot" group. Why does everyone get that part wrong. . .

The issue was the word "Hull zones". Plural. That was where the ambiguity came from.

Ugh... You are part of the inferring-things-you-shouldn't group.

I did not get that part wrong. "Cannot" has nothing to do with the particular interaction. Obviously "hull zones" is the part in question (although it's not ambiguous, reading the card as written makes the ability, and interaction quite clear. It caused confusion, but there was no ambiguity.)

Can you seriously not act like a complete ****** every time we interact?

If you think I made the wrong interpretation don't jump to that conclusion based on no evidence. Feel free to ask why I said what I said, but don't insult me based on your own inference.

Ffs.