I wonder if anyone has garnered a big name in literary entertainment, then purposely written something horrible, then sat back and laughed as scholars analyzed it and reported back how brilliant it was?

As to the ring theory idea. I don't buy it for a moment. I think you could apply it in hindsight but I do not think that was the orginal plan.

I don't think it was the original plan either. But he had almost 2 decades to mull over how to approach the PT, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out he reverse engineered it.

I think it is possible Lucas could have. I still just feel that it fits out of happy coiencidence than actual design.

I think if people have to write blog after blog and produce theory after theory about why someone should like something...

Let's stop right there. I don't recall any such adage from reading it before. I haven't re-read the whole ring theory article, but there is nothing in the entire first (very long) page that says it's a reason anyone should like the movies more.

The OP created this thread to use that article to show the "haters" that the movies aren't bad. Thus this thread serves as a means to present the PT as likable. Thus my comment stands. The article itself may have been written with other goals in mind, and I cover those goals when I discuss the value of dissecting media, but I stand by my statement that if people have to explain why it's likable then the piece in question has failed at being likable. Kinda like how if I have to explain why a joke is funny, the joke itself has failed to be funny.

Yeah great, Episode I still sucks and the other movies still suffered from some terrible acting. You're free to have your opinion but mine remains unchanged.

I'll give Uncle George the benefit of the doubt and accept that he did this whole Ring Theory on purpose. Given that I didn't realize it until I read this blog (quite a while ago... though it keeps coming back up as something new) and the movies lacked SOMETHING, I don't see how this changes anything.

I'm ok with the PT. I don't hate them. I prefer the OT. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why but I'm not going to be original if I try to explain them so I won't. I don't need Ring Theory or Darth Jar Jar to try and change that.

Very interesting read with some unusual ideas. I enjoyed it.

Speaking as a fan of Star Wars since, a very very young age, I grew up in the prequel era but I was a Star Wars fan before Episode I, I enjoyed Episode I and I still enjoy it to this day despite what a very vocal section of the Star Wars 'fanbase' say. Same can be said for Episode II and III. Does this mean they are perfect movies? Hell no, I can see their flaws...but I can enjoy them and they are part of the lore and history of the Star Wars universe.

Episode IV, V, and VI is where I started at the young age of 5ish and they are special movies to me and I love them. Are they perfect movies, hell no, in some areas they are worse than the prequels yet mysteriously get a free pass by previously said members of the community who dislike the other films. However....I enjoy them and I enjoy them the most, particularly Episode VI.

I can see the hate, Jar Jar, Droids (prequel and OT), Ewoks, and most of the time I find myself thinking "Get over it already?" since people seem to focus on small things that somehow impact their actual enjoyment of the movie, unable to see past these imperfections.

I enjoy the movies for what they are, space opera at it's finest and every year I look forward to putting in all the films in the Machete order (IV, V, I, II, III, VI) and enjoying the hell out of those movies from start to finish.

I'm not saying you can't like or dislike certain movies, we all have our opinions, but when people allow one little thing to spoil it all just seems really...childish to me. Which I find highly ironic given how Star Wars was, and still is, marketed towards kids. The only reason we exist is because we are kids who grew up and never left it.

Despite the hate, the lore still stands, you can dislike whatever of the films you like, but they still happened and unless your running an alt-u campaign, that can't be changed. I hate the people plugging their ears and going 'lalalalalala' like that somehow will help or justify why they refuse to accept that Ewoks, who successfully captured and were going to EAT the main characters of said movie, which consisted of a 7 feet tall WOOKIEE, a street smart smuggler who was a CRACK SHOT, and a JEDI KNIGHT! Could beat the Empire and that doing that somehow makes it so that it never ever happened, and they can ignore it. Plus, y'know, the Rebels DID help a lot. So it was technically a joint Ewok-Rebel Alliance victory.

I do also hate the 'well I'm a bigger fan than you because I read all the books and blah blah' yeah, you are a big fan, but everyone is a fan, however I present this argument; The only people I call into question are those who try to imagine films don't exist (not disliking the films...you can dislike something yet still accept it, there is a difference). You say you are a Star Wars fan, let's break that down, the story of Star Wars, is Episode I to VI (soon to be VII, VIII, and IX as well) if you hate 3 of those movies so much you imagine they don't exist, you are saying you are a Star Wars fan yet only like 50% of the story that the saga presents, then by definition how can you say your a 'Star Wars Fan' when you hate 50% of Star Wars? That's what I take umbridge with. There are many people who dislike the films but still respect and like the general story they present as lore.

I DO believe that hating on the prequels is merely the 'cool thing to do' and there is some kind of code where if you don't hate them your not considered a good person or something. I do think the general negativity towards the film has lead people into the film thinking it will be bad and thus making it bad in their head. Why do I think this? because I have had the honor (and I do consider it an honor) to find a rare individual who knew NOTHING of Star Wars, and I mean NOTHING, a clean slate. I told her these films heavily impacted my life, showed her all 6 and she enjoyed all 6 with no personal preference or dislike towards any of them.

I recognize that all the films have their faults, just how I recognize how friggin' awesome The Clone Wars, and Rebels are as TV shows, even if people don't want to give them a chance because either "Eh, it's animated." "It's set in the prequels" or "It's made by Disney, they have friggin Aladdin in it!" I mean seriously? You're comparing Esra with Aladdin? The only connection is the orphan thing which I don't think Aladdin or Disney has a copyright stamp on, if so I advise Disney to not sue the orphanages around the world because that would be highly unethical and wrong. I digress, despite people not giving these shows a chance, I enjoyed them. I also know that not everyone will enjoy them, all I think is due is that people actually TRY them rather than expecting to be disappointed. Go in with no expectations and watch what fans consider the best and worst episodes, if you dislike them, fair enough, you can at least say you gave it a shot.

These are of course just my own opinions and views and they aren't meant in anyway to belittle or upset anyone at all, merely getting across my perspective of the films and the fanbase of said films. As I said you can still dislike something but still accept it and acknowledge it for what it is, and I do that to the general Star Wars community, I may not agree with everyone, but I respect their views.

I think I went majorly off topic there but its stuff I've really wanted to get off my chest for ages really, feels good.

I'm ok with the PT. I don't hate them. I prefer the OT. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why but I'm not going to be original if I try to explain them so I won't. I don't need Ring Theory or Darth Jar Jar to try and change that.

Honestly, this is my opinion too. The Prequel Trilogy films aren't the worst movies I've ever seen come out of Hollywood, not by a longshot. (See Elektra, Starship Troopers II, etc.) My problem with them is that they're just disappointing, for pretty much all the reasons people have listed. Even the actors actually came from good pedigree, but the writing was just so bad. The overall effect was, "Meh." They're still Star Wars, so they're all right, but they're such a let down compared to the excitement of the Original Trilogy.

And while I freely acknowledge the OT was unique and like nothing else and that made them special, that's not the only reason they've survived the test of time. There was just something earnest about the original films, and the PT just tried to rely too much on brand loyalty. I'm hoping the Sequel Trilogy will be different, but hey, Disney's getting my money either way.

The PT plays too much like a historical documentary to me. The OT was deliberately designed to be an epic, a yarn, a fable. Throw in a few a story writing mess ups and design choices and you have problems. Was Lucas trying to make a masterpiece? Possibly. Did it work? I would say not quite.

The PT plays too much like a historical documentary to me. The OT was deliberately designed to be an epic, a yarn, a fable. Throw in a few a story writing mess ups and design choices and you have problems. Was Lucas trying to make a masterpiece? Possibly. Did it work? I would say not quite.

I think Lucas wasn't really invested in making a masterpiece. I've seen several interviews from people (such as Mark Hamill) that talk about filming of Episode VI and how Lucas was more concerned about the toys than the overall story. I have a sinking feeling that some of that was at play when he made the PT, he was more concerned about the marketing than he was the story.

The PT plays too much like a historical documentary to me. The OT was deliberately designed to be an epic, a yarn, a fable. Throw in a few a story writing mess ups and design choices and you have problems. Was Lucas trying to make a masterpiece? Possibly. Did it work? I would say not quite.

I think Lucas wasn't really invested in making a masterpiece. I've seen several interviews from people (such as Mark Hamill) that talk about filming of Episode VI and how Lucas was more concerned about the toys than the overall story. I have a sinking feeling that some of that was at play when he made the PT, he was more concerned about the marketing than he was the story.

I kind of admit. I preferred his original vision of the new death star being built over the wookie home world. Would have been a nice way of rounding off their enslaved status.

_{I have a strange feeling of déjà vu.}

_{https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192630-interesting-theory/}

_{It's almost like this was mentioned a couple weeks ago, immediately debunked as absurd drivel, forgotten, then brought back up as if it were new or in any way interesting or relevant.}

Thanks for your "wisdom".

Anytime! Thanks for your biting sarcasm.

But seriously, we all know Lucas didn't intentionally do this mess. And we know he didn't because his scenes don't match up how they should. To recant my example from the original thread: The cantina scene from ANH should have been in ROTS. It's a classic scene that George did attempt to recreate, but he put it in AOTC, specifically breaking the ring. If his intention was to "ring" the movies, he would not have done it that way. So we can surmise that this ring theory is not true. I don't care if you like the movies. That is an entirely separate debate I am uninterested in having. But this idea that the reason the prequels are the way they are is because George was attempting to do some fancy filmmaking is a fantasy.

I wonder if anyone has garnered a big name in literary entertainment, then purposely written something horrible, then sat back and laughed as scholars analyzed it and reported back how brilliant it was?

I often get **** from my scholarly friends for saying this, but: David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest.

I think the Ring Theory is a real thing, I think Lucas indeed did it on purpose and perhaps he massively overplayed his hand in doing so. If the stylistic elements and overlapping shots (which I agree are too numerous to be the mere coincidence I thought they were before I actually read the thing) had not been as important to Lucas perhaps the movies might have been more enjoyable.

So in closing: The ring Theory seems real. I still hate the prequels as movies.

I think the Ring Theory is a real thing, I think Lucas indeed did it on purpose and perhaps he massively overplayed his hand in doing so. If the stylistic elements and overlapping shots (which I agree are too numerous to be the mere coincidence I thought they were before I actually read the thing) had not been as important to Lucas perhaps the movies might have been more enjoyable.

So in closing: The ring Theory seems real. I still hate the prequels as movies.

It could simply be that these similarities are a result of their being cooked up by the same grey matter. One could argue that they're the result of not having anything new to say. These similarities are nothing more than Ed Norton playing Suwanee River on the piano...

I'm perfectly willing to accept he did it on purpose because, "Why not?" It doesn't change anything, either way so stipulating to it is irrelevant.

if people have to explain why it's likable then the piece in question has failed at being likable. Kinda like how if I have to explain why a joke is funny, the joke itself has failed to be funny.

Of course this also allows for the use of the same analogy to illustrate the counterpoint of: the joke actually *was* pretty good...you just didn't get it.

I tend to agree with the estimation that this piece was an attempt to put lipstick on a pig, but the blanket statement of "if something lacks subjective appeal, it is objectively unappealing" only applies with any relevance over a sample size of one (thus, "if something lacks subjective appeal, it is objectively unappealing to me") which is straying into tautology.

Okay. Didnt really wanted to step into this, but its kind of been gnawing at me for a while.

Be aware that this is merely MY opinion. My feelings. You can accept or reject them, not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

I am not going to go on a long, detailed description over all possible points. I dont like typing on my phone that much. I will just try to use a few examples, and hope you see my point to expand further on.

First of all, look at the Lightsaber duels of the OT vs the PT:

In the OT, the first of such battle is Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader. We established a strong history between the two characters already. Darth Vader was the murderer of all Jedis, and Obiwan's best pupil. All the while, we have seen Vader obsess over Obiwan's presence in the Death Star.

The battle they have, while not visually impressive, is filled to the brim with emotion between the two characters. They know this is their final duel. It was a powerful moment.

Second light saber battle is extremely short. Its Luke's test in the Cave. Again, this is entirely about Luke's fear, and project a massive spotlight on Luke's character, his motivation and his destiny.

The third duel is the legendary fight in the Cloud City; between Vader and Luke. You see Luke is itching to face Vader despite his vision in the Cave. Why? Vader killes Obiwan, the man who opened his eyes. Luke is trying to avenge his first master...

..and somewhat surprises Vader by his training. But Vader is toying with him, until he decides to just up the ante and wreck his **** by going Master Sorcerer. And then Vader disarm him, both physically and emotionally. He not only beat Luke, he breaks him.

The last Duel is Vader vs Luke on the Death Star. But this is probably one of the most interesting fights, as Luke's real struggle is no against Vader, but the Emperor. The Emperor goads him, incessantly. Until Luke loses control and start the fight.

That fight is basically Luke losing his struggle against the Emperor. He finally finds some measure of peace, tries to hide.. But he has been weakened emotionally. So much that VADER can now penetrate his toughts and goad him..

And Luke loses it. He let his emotions take over. At this moment of physical triumph over Vader, this was his lowest point. This is the moment he could have lost everything.

But he stays his hand, and proves to be the Jedi Triumphant. Letting go of his fear, his arrogance, his wrath. He found peace, and yields to the Emperor.

All of these duels were heavy with subtext. They had deep character and story moments, and you have to dig deep to truly see what this was all about.

Now lets see about the Prequels, shall we?!?!

First Duel is Darth Maul vs Qi-Gon on Tatooine. Two strangers fighting. One not even having an idea as to why the other guy wants to kill him.

Second Duel is the first half of the Climatic battle of Naboo. Again, its two Jedi against a lightsaber-weilding stranger. Who is that guy? Why does he want to fight these Jedi? What is his deal?

The fight is visually impressive, and luckily for it, because that is ALL that is going for it. Its a beautiful fight scene that totally fail to deliver any sort of significance, which is basically the problem with the Prequels.

The second half of the Naboo Climax is a bit better. Well.. At least, the Maul-Obiwan part is. The Maul-Jinn fight is one sh*tty fight scene. No emotion, no investment, no care. Qi-Gon is killed without any sort of buildup. The music blares when Obi-Wan screams, but thats about it..

And then we lose all momentum. We just see Maul pacing in front or Qi-Gon's body waiting for the screen to open and let Obiwan fight him.

The final part was a bit better. I could see and feel Obi-wan's rage, which makes it.marginally better than every other fights in the movie. But again, there is no bloody further depth. There is no connection whatsoever beside the steaming corpse of Liam Neeson in the way.

The way Obiwan finally dispatch Maul is anticlimatic, to say the least. The fact that he dispatches Maul right there and then is also a bloody mistake. Why not have Obiwan harbor a secret rage for Maul, desiring his revenge, and this secret rage might be the reason Anakin turned out so twisted?

Ok. Fourth Duel in the Prequel: Obi-wan/Anakin vs Dooku. Meh. Again, no connection, no involvement, no subtext. Dooku is not trying to corrupt them, he has no relation to any of the two jedi. Anakin pitifully tries to say "you will pay for all the Jedi who died today", but its petty and rather self-centered. The fifht is all about shiny lightsticks.

Fifth fight is Yoda/Dooku. Good gods. What a ******* waste. What an horror, assassination of a character. Yoda picking up a lightsaber is like Ghandi using a grenade. Again, the fight is just Christopher Lee swinging a light stick around with the animators trying to explain why he is moving where he is.moving. the only inkling of emotion in that scene is Yoda's final words about Dooku being his former Padawan, but it sure did not felt like it at any moment earlier. Had we established a deep friendship between Yoda/Obiwan and Dooku earlier on, it wouls have made his final betrayal way more significant. But the only emotions on display are presented as mere factoids. SHOW DONT TELL

Sixth Fight is Dooku/ObiWan-Anakin. Its Short, emotionless, and just there to end a thread Lucas did not botheres develop any further. The only thing good at the end is Palatine's manipulation. Somewhat. Maybe.

Seventh is Grievous/Obiwan. Shiny lightsticks. zero emotion. Pass.

Eight is Windu/Palpatine. The fight itself is meaningless, to be fair. But the concluaion was worth it. Perhaps one of the best Duel Scene of the prequel trilogy, because it actually had meaning and depth. Just like Vader/Luke on the Death Star, this fight is literally about Palpatine seducing Anakin. The setup is stupis, the fight is stupid, but at least the scene had subtext, so kudos there.

Ninth is Yoda/Palatine. What a ******* waste Part II. Again going for flashy stuff. This is the greatest Jedi Master of our time vs the Greatest Sith Lord. Two trickster archetypes in their own fields. And they duke it out with flippin' lightsabers?!?! Good god. Its like seeing Han Solo and Lando deciding who is the best pilot by armwrestling.

Tenth is Obi-wan vs Anakin. Meh. Flashy, corny dialogue, but at least it was ABOUT something.

if people have to explain why it's likable then the piece in question has failed at being likable. Kinda like how if I have to explain why a joke is funny, the joke itself has failed to be funny.

Of course this also allows for the use of the same analogy to illustrate the counterpoint of: the joke actually *was* pretty good...you just didn't get it.

I tend to agree with the estimation that this piece was an attempt to put lipstick on a pig, but the blanket statement of "if something lacks subjective appeal, it is objectively unappealing" only applies with any relevance over a sample size of one (thus, "if something lacks subjective appeal, it is objectively unappealing to me") which is straying into tautology.

I'm not trying to make an objective truth claim there. But on some level if you have to explain it to someone, it has failed at being likable.

And to a certain extent the PT has failed at being likable. There is a sizable portion of the fan base that hates it. How big they are we'll never know but it exist. And if the PT was actually succeeding at being likable there wouldn't be a need to explain to this segment of the player base why these movies aren't as bad as people say they are. The amount of time and energy people devote trying to get the PT detractors to change their opinion denotes that on some level people are recognizing that the movies have failed to be appealing on their own. Because if they were succeeding at being likable there would be no need for blog post like this to convince people.

A good example is the MCU. There aren't fans trying to convert other fans into liking the MCU. The MCU, for the most part is regard as a success. It speaks for itself. It doesn't require anyone to devote time and energy trying to convert people into liking it. Which isn't to say that objectively it's likable I'm pretty sure there are people out there who hate the MCU. But due to the lack of time spent on trying to convert others to liking it I can only conclude that that number of people is small in comparison to it's overall fans.

Is this all 100% objective? Nope not at all. Every movie that is hailed as a success has people who hate it. Every movie that is hailed as a failure has it's fans and supporters. So there is no way to be 100% objective here. But I don't feel like we need to qualify our statements with it being "subjective" or "objective". I think for the most part we get that when discussing something like this no one is aiming to go for the objective truth statement.

As such I'm not objectively saying that the PT is unlikable. But I am saying that if it had succeed at being likable in general we wouldn't need film scholars to explain to us why we should like it. In general, movies that are considered likable don't require outside agents to explain away the flaws. No one is explaining away the MCU's flaws. Overall it's succeeding at being likable (a bit too well in my opinion but that's a different rant). The PT on the other hand, considering the amount of push back against it, failed at being likable. It's not without it's fans, but it does require more work than most likable works of fiction do in order to be considered likable.

This isn't an objective truth statement mind you, just an observation about what seems to succeed and how in the realm of storytelling and movie making.

Yeah, my eyes started glazing over the second they make the "comparison of Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi". I then gotten bored when they were trying to make the comment that it was in reverse order.

Sorry dudes and dudettes, but this is why people consider George Lucas to be a hack and a hypocrite these days. The biggest issue I have when they were using the comparison is history and impact. Let me start with Return of the Jedi:

1. This was the bad guys, like the article pointed out. However, you were seeing a NEW AND UNDER CONSTRUCTED Death Star. Everyone thought there was only one and it was destroyed in Episode IV. The fact the Empire is building a second one immediately impressed everyone.
   
2. The Shuttle didn't arrived alone. It arrived with three Star Destroyers with a TIE escort. That's how you have an introduction.
   
3. The cut to the pilots asking for clearance? It wasn't to show case an exchange between the pilots and controllers. It was to show how huge and massive the Death Star was. It's to remind people that the Empire was still powerful and willing to keep making big weapons.
   
4. The scene the in the control room? AWESOME! It was neat. It was clean. You can see the faces of the Imperial crew where before it was just helmets and masks. This looks like the standard job for the Empire.
   
5. We see the approach of the shuttle as it heads towards the Death Star. Right there you see four landing bays and the scale of the Death Star was still impressive.
   
6. For the final photo from RotJ, we see scale. The shuttle is small in the bay. You kid fit two, maybe three more in there with it. It once again made an attempt to impress on to the viewer its size and grandeur.

Now, doing a comparison of The Phantom Menace, it takes a noticeable, and less impressive, direction.

1. The main ship was alone. No escorts, no fighting, no nothing. If anything, the only impression was "Oh, it's a ship." And not an impressive one at that. Heck, we didn't know if it was the good guys or the bad guys.
   
2. The cockpit scene was boring. You could barely see the other ships and it didn't seem to have any urgency or impressiveness. Heck, they don't really explain what was going.
   
3. You get a video of some frog man giving clearance.
   
4. Like it was mentioned before, it looks like a partly eaten donut with a donut whole attached to it. Only thing impressive might be the number of ships, but even then it wasn't. They didn't give off a sense of danger yet.
   
5. When the ship lands in the bay, it could barely fit. The only thing impressive there is how the pilot landed without scratching the paint.

From my standpoint, just because a film mimics a set of scenes from another film doesn't make them equal.

Of course the reason the ship could barely fit was because it was almost six times the size of the shuttle from ROTJ.

Of course the reason the ship could barely fit was because it was almost six times the size of the shuttle from ROTJ.

And I'm still surprised the pilot didn't crash the **** thing or scratched the paint.

The PT plays too much like a historical documentary to me. The OT was deliberately designed to be an epic, a yarn, a fable. Throw in a few a story writing mess ups and design choices and you have problems. Was Lucas trying to make a masterpiece? Possibly. Did it work? I would say not quite.

I think Lucas wasn't really invested in making a masterpiece. I've seen several interviews from people (such as Mark Hamill) that talk about filming of Episode VI and how Lucas was more concerned about the toys than the overall story. I have a sinking feeling that some of that was at play when he made the PT, he was more concerned about the marketing than he was the story.

Two words: Force Friday. The marketing tradition continues in full force through Disney.

Never noticed before, prequel haters are smarmy jerks

Never noticed before, prequel haters are smarmy jerks

Did you just posted this to insult other peoples?

Personally theres a good reason why I don't really talk a great deal about star wars itself. Everyone has opinions and if you don't agree, the same opinion will be repeated louder. If in doubt, call their mother a wookie and call it a day.

There are large sections of the prequels which just don't really do it for me, but they were quite passable if you knew which parts to skip, episode 3 especially was entertaining from start to finish. Luka's vision for world building was utterly fantastic and unfaultable, just large sections of ep 1-2 were largely forgettable drivel. Kind of a shame really, since Palps plan of conquest really was quite ingenious.

I like movies. I liked all the movies. Crying about it, hating it, justifying it... is for kids. Some of us are adults, capable of living our lives without freting over what was good and what was bad. Jedi and politics are cool, therefor prequels are cool. Deal with it