This topic was touched upon in this thread, and I thought it deserved its own topic: what does each faction still need in terms of ship roles?

The Rebels are pretty well set. They've got synergy ships. They've got regenerating ships. They've got high-PS aces in the 30, 40, and 50 point ranges. They've got several viable control ships. They've got fat turrets. They've got swarm ships. They have cheap turrets. The only thing I could argue they're missing is a solid ship in the realm of 20 points -- most Rebel snubfighters are closer to 23 or 25 points.

The Imperials are close, but they're still missing a few of those key roles. They have no regenerating ships. They have very few control ships. They have no cheap turrets, and very few pilots with synergistic abilities. Unfortunately, many of those things are essential to a well-rounded squadron; the result is that, while the Empire has many competitive lists, it is very difficult to create an Imperial list with no weaknesses and no bad matchups.

Scum is in a pretty poor place. They don't have much in the way of snubfighters, and virtually nothing in terms of control. They hardly have any high-PS aces, and many of those are prohibitively expensive or straight-up overcosted. There isn't a strong Scum ace in the 30-50 point range a la Corran or Soontir; and they have almost nothing in terms of survivable, high-cost ships (Agressors excepted -- though they tend toward the lower end of the high-cost pool).

So what do you think? Do the factions still have roles that need filling, or are they pretty well fleshed-out?

Rebels are missing a ship so large it just barely misses epic; maybe a way to make a "one-ship build" viable

Imperials are missing a cheapish blocker or sturdier juke machine, plus access to cheap bomber-support tech

Scum are missing B-wings, an effective ordnance platform, and a large-base ace that isn't a freaking aggressor (although people really need to use their goddamn Vipers instead of inferring a lack of high PS, durable aces...well, one high and one low PS durable ace)

but we'll never get those

I don't think that every faction needs to be the same, which is basically what you're saying with things like "They have no regenerating ships. They have very few control ships. They have no cheap turrets, and very few pilots with synergistic abilities." Imps are doing just fine, and are both fun to play and competitive. No need to make them Rebels.

Operating on the flawed assumption that each faction needs everything that other factions can do.

The problem with separate factions is in making them equal among their counterparts yet keeping each faction having their own identity through the game mechanics. When wave 4 and 5 hit one of the main criticisms is that the factions were turning into mirrors of each other with rebels getting a cheap swarm-fodder-filler ship and Imperials getting their own fat turret ship. When wave 6 came out the scum faction had a difficult task of finding its own role among two well fleshed out factions with already established builds and strategies.

As for rebels they have hit-point regen which is proving to be very powerful in the meta. As for Imperials they recently have more guaranteed results with upgrades like palpatine and TIE/1x throwing dice off the board with results already set forth so you don't have to gamble on the dice.

As for scum it has always been in a spot where it has to be able to do something that the other factions can do well but better, or do something that is powerful in the meta that the other two factions can do. Right now the latter has yet to appear. If you look at bro-bots it is strikingly similar to Buzzsaw shuttle lists only with more firepower and maneuverability which is why Brobots replaced the Buzzsaw shuttles.

In wave 8 the factions would have been on equilibrium with each faction having the same number of ships (not counting the phantom shuttle off of the Ghost) but now TFA stuff has found its way into X-wing and the Scum faction is once again 1 ship behind the other two. Right now it looks like the only big change is Scum will finally get their own PWT ship and some more salvaged astromechs, Rebels get a huge ship that dwarfs the latest non-epic big boy the VT-49 decimator, and Imperials get some sort of cross between a TIE advanced and an A-wing/Headhunter? i don't know how the next wave will effect the meta nor can I tell if the current one has a balanced meta. It seems like all three factions do hove their power builds which is good since you don't see one faction being completely ignored (oh high Sisters of Battle).

What the heck are you smoking. Your analysis is completely wrong.

First is this problem: We are finding that players are getting too good that some ships have too much obvious merit/value over a longer game: eg. regen and nearly uncatchable aces.

Imp side, we have a strong prevalence of aces at tons of different point levels, TurrVI, carnorVI and juno around 30, soontir and vaderVI near 35, Whisper at 40 and up. Simply not being blocked while running these (and adding AT or Palpatine) usually gives you a list that can take all comers.

Scum has been wanting a PS 9 "ace" for a long time, like Cobra. And for good reason. When you try the middling aces that Scum has, its very noticable how binary of a situation PS is. PS also makes a far larger difference at high play skill levels, but has much less impact at lower levels.

Thus, I agree that Scum could use a PS9 ace/arc dodger. I just don't like the idea. I wish there were more ways you could take the game.

Rebels could use a 15-20 pt ship, but honestly, they have Zs at 12-13 and Ys at 24 and Xs at 22 and Bs at 22. I think there's not that much differentiation.

Scum has the most control,..... what are you talking about? ICT, TLT, Palob, Sycks, Emon/bombs

Aggressors are almost annoyingly durable in some matches.

Rebels could use a 15-20 pt ship, but honestly, they have Zs at 12-13 and Ys at 24 and Xs at 22 and Bs at 22. I think there's not that much differentiation.

Rebels have the A-wing. 15 pt Prototypes and Crackshot Greens are great.

Rebels could use a 15-20 pt ship, but honestly, they have Zs at 12-13 and Ys at 24 and Xs at 22 and Bs at 22. I think there's not that much differentiation.

Rebels have the A-wing. 15 pt Prototypes and Crackshot Greens are great.

Doh! Yes. Awesome. Thank you.

And yes, that Awing has seen 2nd place at worlds: at 17 pts, with AT.

Scum has been wanting a PS 9 "ace" for a long time, like Cobra. And for good reason. When you try the middling aces that Scum has, its very noticable how binary of a situation PS is. PS also makes a far larger difference at high play skill levels, but has much less impact at lower levels.

Thus, I agree that Scum could use a PS9 ace/arc dodger. I just don't like the idea. I wish there were more ways you could take the game.

I agree with this so much. However, I am not entirely sure this needs intervention on the part of the developers (as some people on this forum are likely to suggest). Rather, I think the player base needs to consider how to best leverage low PS ships in this apparently ace-dominated meta. I have really enjoyed watching people play the Intelligence Agent Wild Space Fringer because it's a clever way to 'gum up the works' at a decent price point. Intelligence Agent may find its way into Scum builds to allow for better blocking of aces, but the catch is that the squad needs to be able to capitalize on that block: if you block Poe, and can't pour fire into him, for example, he's going to slip away and regenerate shields.

Aside from blocking, mines are another great tool, and I think the TLT Syndicate Thugs could benefit from a Proximity Mine or Connor Net to deter or destroy enemy aces. Again, those points have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure what the best place is.

Finally, I think there may be weird anti-synergy squads that have yet to be explored utilizing the mid-range named Scum pilots. They each have their strengths, and combining them to cover for weaknesses may be possible. I am the LEAST qualified to speculate on what those combos may be, however, because all I own is Most Wanted and a StarViper.

Scum has been wanting a PS 9 "ace" for a long time, like Cobra. And for good reason. When you try the middling aces that Scum has, its very noticable how binary of a situation PS is. PS also makes a far larger difference at high play skill levels, but has much less impact at lower levels.

Thus, I agree that Scum could use a PS9 ace/arc dodger. I just don't like the idea. I wish there were more ways you could take the game.

I agree with this so much. However, I am not entirely sure this needs intervention on the part of the developers (as some people on this forum are likely to suggest). Rather, I think the player base needs to consider how to best leverage low PS ships in this apparently ace-dominated meta. I have really enjoyed watching people play the Intelligence Agent Wild Space Fringer because it's a clever way to 'gum up the works' at a decent price point. Intelligence Agent may find its way into Scum builds to allow for better blocking of aces, but the catch is that the squad needs to be able to capitalize on that block: if you block Poe, and can't pour fire into him, for example, he's going to slip away and regenerate shields.

Aside from blocking, mines are another great tool, and I think the TLT Syndicate Thugs could benefit from a Proximity Mine or Connor Net to deter or destroy enemy aces. Again, those points have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure what the best place is.

Finally, I think there may be weird anti-synergy squads that have yet to be explored utilizing the mid-range named Scum pilots. They each have their strengths, and combining them to cover for weaknesses may be possible. I am the LEAST qualified to speculate on what those combos may be, however, because all I own is Most Wanted and a StarViper.

I very much agree with you in sentiment. However, I've found that I can't find a way to lverage them cost effecitvely point wise, nor has anyone else playing against me been able to defeat my ace play with lower level PS. (And I'm not even the best ace player).

They've tried Intel agent stuff. I beat it. Handily.

Funny enough, I have ONE idea that is exactly from Most wanted and one starviper (plus another Y).

Not sharing it yet though. My secret weapon. Needs further testing.

Operating on the flawed assumption that each faction needs everything that other factions can do.

Rebels have it all xD

Rebels are missing a viable T-65 X Wing (IA is still pretty weaksauce and also not here yet) and a viable generic E Wing. Imps missing viable Defenders and maybe a decent TIE bomber upgrade. Scum need a couple more options but im interested to see how FFG want them to develop. I dont think they need the same cookie cutter options as the other two.

Faction wise they are all meant to be different, or we could say rebels are missing arc dodging, ps9, hair-on-fire aces. Or a 2 crew slot global control character. Im fine with imps having stuff rebels dont. To be fair rebel synergy is laughable compared to some of the imp support abilities (Howlie, Kagi et al). Rebel regen is legit, but limited to three droid upgrades and a mildly pudgy turret.

Dont want anymore mindless circle-the-table edge play. Lets focus on getting ships with guns that point forwards!

(Edit): came off as more curmudgeonly than intended. probably due to posting early in the morning with too little caffeine to enable positivity to kick in. I am looking forward to more interesting, varied, low-calorie options for all three factions.

Let the positivity commence!

I very much agree with you in sentiment. However, I've found that I can't find a way to lverage them cost effecitvely point wise, nor has anyone else playing against me been able to defeat my ace play with lower level PS. (And I'm not even the best ace player).

They've tried Intel agent stuff. I beat it. Handily.

Funny enough, I have ONE idea that is exactly from Most wanted and one starviper (plus another Y).

Not sharing it yet though. My secret weapon. Needs further testing.

Very excited to see what you've come up with. My best shot has been (as is no secret at this point) 4x Alpha Sq. Pilots with an Adv. Sensors + Fleet Officer Omicron with Intelligence Agent. That Omicron pulls some weight! Not only does it have a great support ability and 3 attack dice, but that Intelligence Agent pairs so well with the TIE interceptor's ability to barrel roll or boost where it needs to be to block an ace. Granted, I have been playing it mostly on Vassal since the new baby came, so I don't know the caliber of my opponents. It's still a challenge, and it always ends up in a close game whether I win or lose (unless I make a dumb mistake).

This experience is what led me to suggest that Intelligence Agent may be able to help with ye ol' Scum faction, but I'll admit it may not be the right fit.

EDIT: My horrible attempt at something like that with scum:

3x Black Sun Enforcer + Autothrusters

Spice Runner + Autoblaster Turret + Intelligence Agent

I think Scum needs more in the way of cannibilization, prey on your own list to make you stronger.

A Scum only EPT to allow you to fire on your own ships to trigger Dead Man's Switch for instance.

Modifications to take a damage to increase firepower, self ioning for profit.

The Empire needs ways to move away from the Aces Only and bring back the swarm. Cheap, expendable ships.

Rebels need to move back towards the synergistic lists with abilities that work better as a team.

Those are, to me, the flavours of the factions and I feel that especially the Imps and Rebs have drifted a bit.

I very much agree with you in sentiment. However, I've found that I can't find a way to lverage them cost effecitvely point wise, nor has anyone else playing against me been able to defeat my ace play with lower level PS. (And I'm not even the best ace player).

They've tried Intel agent stuff. I beat it. Handily.

Funny enough, I have ONE idea that is exactly from Most wanted and one starviper (plus another Y).

Not sharing it yet though. My secret weapon. Needs further testing.

Very excited to see what you've come up with. My best shot has been (as is no secret at this point) 4x Alpha Sq. Pilots with an Adv. Sensors + Fleet Officer Omicron with Intelligence Agent. That Omicron pulls some weight! Not only does it have a great support ability and 3 attack dice, but that Intelligence Agent pairs so well with the TIE interceptor's ability to barrel roll or boost where it needs to be to block an ace. Granted, I have been playing it mostly on Vassal since the new baby came, so I don't know the caliber of my opponents. It's still a challenge, and it always ends up in a close game whether I win or lose (unless I make a dumb mistake).

This experience is what led me to suggest that Intelligence Agent may be able to help with ye ol' Scum faction, but I'll admit it may not be the right fit.

EDIT: My horrible attempt at something like that with scum:

3x Black Sun Enforcer + Autothrusters

Spice Runner + Autoblaster Turret + Intelligence Agent

Ahh, wait, that was my fun build. Sorry for being a tease.

The fun build was this. (I was running it before worlds and heaver, but its not anywhere near the level of ahha! his is.)

Guri AT (Choice of virago FCS Adrenaline, or Lone Wolf only)

Y TLT R4

Y TLT R4

Z

There's a few points to spare. LW is good if you like to do flanking style deployments. Personally, I'm crap at it and I've been getting the same value out of FCS and Adrenaline Rush.

Why Adrenaline Rush you ask?? Simple. With AT and Focus, Guri NEVER takes damage from normal TLT shots. You're going to need to do two Sloops. One of them will be early game, so you need to be able to reposition into a F for that, or take it natively. The other you should attempt when out of R3 of TLT.

Combine Guri, 2TLT and a Z damage, and you can probably take out one of their aces. Past that, Guri's cost effectiveness can carry you to victory or parity.

Another option I've considered is Virago AdvSen, for the same reason: gaining a F on one segnor loop. For the same importance: You won't ever take dmg from TLT.

Also imo. Guri isn't obviously the threat here. The Y TLTs are.

Guri is the only dial I think that can go toe to toe with a better PS. Sharp turns, 3segnors, all with F upon being R1 leads to some really good blocking and positioning in the middle of the game... Where everyone is R1. You can easily take advantage of the huge economy advantage here to burn down one enemy.

Focus TLTs on their aces.

Well, Imps are missing a heavy fighter in the squint bracket as opposed to the trip bracket.

Rebs are missing honestly I don't know, they have most of the niches filled especially considering Wave 8.

Scum need a lot of things.

Nothing. The current factions need nothing. In fact, they could have skipped the last couple of waves and STILL they would need nothing.

This will also guarantee some serious damage on aces.

Kavil (24)

...PS also makes a far larger difference at high play skill levels, but has much less impact at lower levels...

I'd suggest exactly the opposite. Exceptionally skilled players overcome the move first-shoot last limitations of low PS ships with experience and the ability to predict moves and read the game. See: Paul Heaver winning World Championships flying generic B-Wings, Z95's and Y-Wings.

Meanwhile, watch a set of inexperienced players or new players fielding generics vs high PS pilots and you will see results tend to swing in favour of those players fielding high PS pilots as the move last/adjust position/shoot first mechanic is a lot harder to account for.

wave 8

Scum is missing it's B-wing and A-wing equivalents and a reusable illicit upgrade. It's also missing a faction specific control piece. Eg. I'd like to see a crewman or an illicit upgrade that gives a non-epic ship a jam action. Also, a way to drain shields and transfer to them to the attacker would be a fun mechanic, as long as it doesn't make the game too defensive.

Scum needs Damage Mitigation. Big time.

Scum needs a good PS8-9 ace in a good ship.

This will also guarantee some serious damage on aces.

Kavil (24)

Crack Shot (1)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

R4 Agromech (2)

Binayre Pirate (12)

Drea Renthal (22)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

R4-B11 (3)

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Bossk (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I'd be fine playing this vs Palp 2aces.

Squeeze Tracer missiles on that Z95, to reset Drey if you ever mess up.

Scum needs a good PS8-9 ace in a good ship.

We're looking at you, Dengar!