I play two players and after beating this one consistently before we are just stuck on it after coming back after a while (and forgetting what we did)

Is it supposed to be this hard? My win rate is insanely low.

It is very hard. I actually think it is one of the hardest quests to date (although I haven't played anything after Wastes of Eriador yet). I think this quest is harder than the majority of nightmare scenarios as well.

My recommendations as far as player cards are:

1. Abuse Sneak Attack Gandalf for threat reduction (and occasionally damage if enemies get out of control) and utilizing Will of the West to recycle all your Sneak Attacks and Gandalfs

2. Use Northern Trackers and Asfaloth to manage locations while using Elrond to defend with A Burning Brand during day

3. Chump block during night (since shadow effects cannot be cancelled during night). You can always defend with Elrond in a pinch at night, but generally it is not recommended.

4. Use Wardens of Healing to counter any damage taken.

5. Use Dwarves to power quest

6. Abuse Elfhelm

7. Use Miner of the Iron Hills to get rid of Cold from Angmar

Bifur, Glorfindel, Elrond (utilizes Galadhrim's Greetings, Elfhelm, and Gandalf)

Dain, Thorin, Ori (utilizes Sneak Attack Gandalf / Will of the West)

As far as dealing with the encounter deck I'd say:

1. Clear the side quests as soon as you can. This takes priority over everything else always! The encounter deck will punish you if you don't.

2. Almost always optionally engage 1 enemy/player during day and kill them so you have fewer enemies to fight at night.

3. Keep as many characters fully healed as possible so you don't have to fight Hunting Pack

4. Make sure you include fully healed people as a part of your questing party in preparation for Freezing Blast

So it simply is that hard and I'm not just failing hard with strategy here then. There are so few break cards. The only breaks you get is if you manage to draw the wheather treacheries as your night reveals. But even then doomed hits you more often that not.

I find quests you have to build specifically for less enjoyable on the replay than others. It's kind of discouraging because you can get through almost the first two cycles up until Shadow and Flame with thematic decks or a broad strategy with a small side board of heroes and cards even if you are only using current card pools respective to quests. But it's still challenging.

Right now I'm trying to beat as many quests as possible with only minor deck adjustments while staying away from the classic Spearfindelafoth, Dain, Eowyn, Hama lock etc. but I think this quest is going to be an exception.

If you are saying it's even harder than nightmare then it is definitely getting filed under the "bring all your weapons to the table in a finely tuned deck" type of quests. I would definitely put this up there with Ithilien, Siege, Trap, Dike, Shadow n Flame, and of course all saga and PoD scenarios. Those are the quests where the basic broad strategy of quest, combat and support doesnt apply. Usually a deck revolving around a gimmick or some type of ultra power card strategy is required for those. It makes the game feel narrower.

You have alot to look forward to with this cycle. I played the first half through Ettenmoors which is more of your classic "journey across the land killing orcs trolls and wargs" but I have not touched the undead back half of the cycle. Those quests will likely play more like the Dike quest and are a whole different animal I'll look into after mastering the Wastes quest. Mt Gram and Ettenmoors are so enjoyable and my win rates are very high. I don't think I've lost to Gram more than once and it's an Amazing quest that's great for a party game night. Ettenmoors is not easy but it's challenging in an enjoyable way like Anduin was, where you can exercise your fundamentals and fine tune your game IQ. That's why I find Wastes so depressing. It just punishes you no matter what, as though there is no right way to play your deck.

Ok well I've been beating it consistently with 1st player having mono tactics lock and 2nd player Lore/Leadership. Aragorn, Bilbo, Theodred. STWB and Faramir for Will boost. Celebrian's stone x3 for access to test of will, dwarven tomb, and Galadriam's greetings. The latter are much needed late game. There are simply too many brutal wargs and shadow effects. Locking or secrecy are the only answers I can come up with here. But locking seems most reliable because there would be way too much threat and ally discarding for any questing deck I can come up with to boost through this one. The first card is brutal and increases your threat. Once the 2nd card is out if you have your will boosted up generally I can pass that card in 1-2 daylights and when the leader drops generally I quest successfully the very next turn and destroy him in the same turn with engage effects.

This is an extremely, insanely tough quest. Not sure I like quests which require an extremely tailor made deck in order to beat.

This is an extremely, insanely tough quest. Not sure I like quests which require an extremely tailor made deck in order to beat.

I quite like it and there are so few of them! It's like a puzzle. I think the only other one is the one with Sleeping Sentry. Plus, it seems midwestborn came up with a different solution than I did so there seems to be more than one way to beat this quest. I imagine there are more ways to beat it too although I imagine you'll need some form of threat reduction no matter what you choose.

interesting, I don't think this quest is quite as hard as people make it out to be. I don't think it takes a tailor made deck either. It takes good fundementals, that's all. You need to be able to quest and fight, that's really it. There's not much in the way of trickery here, the only stumbling blocks really being that you cant place quest progress at night, and that the first stage raises your threat quite quickly. These are all problems that most decks should be able to solve. The combat is not that difficult. I can beat this quest fairly consistently with my all-purpose paired decks of Theoden(S)/Eowyn/Haldir and Aragorn(T)/Beregond/Theodred.

What exactly is the problem? I am guessing it is threat or location lock. I could enumerate the ways to deal with threat but I'm sure you already know them, so I will just say try to quest pretty hard during the day. Save A Test of Will to cancel the card that makes it Night. That is the real killer treachery card in this quest.

What exactly is the problem?

I think the main problem is not being able to cancel encounter card effects during night. This allows the encounter deck to abuse you and you cannot do anything to prevent it. All you can do is hope you don't get that one card/or combination of cards that makes you lose the game, or starts the downward spiral.

Should say I'm playing 2 player - wonder if this a lot easier with only one player like a lot of the quests are ?

The shadow that moves the enemy to the next player to attack is horrible (had this chain 2-3 times).

A powerful enough Erestor deck should suffice, bar Nightmare Mode. Erestor/Beregond/Eowyn doesn't fare too poorly.

(Edit : I've been replaying and changed the second deck to mono-tactics which produces much more consistent wins).

Phew, finally beat it. Yep, so it seems that an Erestor deck is strong against this one. This is a bring your most powerful deck or don't bother turning up quest, and Erestor is very much part of the next level of deck power. For the second deck I took mono tactics with lots of action advantage (The new card Stand your Ground is ace with Derdingle Warrior and Beregond). Here are the decks I eventually beat it with (note that the Erestor deck should include Double Back - there's a bug on CardgameDB with viewing decks including side quests) :

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/thelordoftherings/the-lord-of-the-rings-decks/_/lord-of-the-rings-submitted-decks/decks-for-wastes-of-eriador-12-r344

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/thelordoftherings/the-lord-of-the-rings-decks/_/lord-of-the-rings-submitted-decks/decks-for-wastes-of-eriador-22-r343

The Erestor deck is the questing deck and the aim is to get out as many allies as quickly as possible - once you have all 3 Ethir Swordsmen (Swordsmans!) in play with Gandalf you are laughing. Getting Elven Spear on Glorfindel also gives you a backup attacker if needed. Also note that cold from Angmar let's you abuse Gandalf's stay in play requirement (But he will then exhaust to quest - but with 12+4 willpower from the Ethirs and Eowyn, who cares!). Discard to Eowyn and for Elven Jeweller as the cards are going anyway.

The mono-tactics deck makes use of 6 cards which can all ready Beregond as an ueber defender. If the enemy jumps to the other player via shadow, just ready him as needed and block using sentinel. Stand your Ground will also ready Derdingle Warrior. Thicket of spears can also save your bacon at night, but you need to plan ahead and work out if you will be swamped. Use Scorpigorns yank over ability to clear out the staging area during day.

General other Advice :

- Cold from Angmar goes on the current quest, so if you have chosen a side quest it will go on this quest, which can be easier then to get rid of. Remember you choose a quest even during the night, even though you can't put progress on it.

- Always clear side quests as a priority to prevent Weight of Responsibility from wrecking you. Once both are cleared Pressing Needs will also fizzle.

Actually burning brand can cancel shadow effects at night as shadow cards are no longer encounter cards

Edit: NM it can't

Actually burning brand can cancel shadow effects at night as shadow cards are no longer encounter cards

Ah really ? Thanks for that.

Actually burning brand can cancel shadow effects at night as shadow cards are no longer encounter cards

Wha? Really?

Yes because encounter card effects cannot be cancelled but shadow cards are not encounter cards. They are shadow cards. If the objective said "card effects cannot be cancelled" or more correctly "non-player card effects cannot be cancelled" it would mean all effects

Yes because encounter card effects cannot be cancelled but shadow cards are not encounter cards. They are shadow cards. If the objective said "card effects cannot be cancelled" or more correctly "non-player card effects cannot be cancelled" it would mean all effects

This is inaccurate according to the FAQ. You cannot cancel shadow cards during night while playing Wastes of Eriador which is one of the reasons it is difficult, in my opinion. Where are you reading that shadow cards are no longer considered to be encounter cards?

FAQ

Q: Is a shadow card effect considered an encounter card effect?

A: Yes. Cards that prevent characters from canceling encounter card effects also prevent players from canceling shadow card effects.

On 11/24/2015 at 9:59 AM, cmabr002 said:

On 11/23/2015 at 10:59 PM, midwestborn86 said:

Yes because encounter card effects cannot be cancelled but shadow cards are not encounter cards. They are shadow cards. If the objective said "card effects cannot be cancelled" or more correctly "non-player card effects cannot be cancelled" it would mean all effects

This is inaccurate according to the FAQ. You cannot cancel shadow cards during night while playing Wastes of Eriador which is one of the reasons it is difficult, in my opinion. Where are you reading that shadow cards are no longer considered to be encounter cards?

Quote

FAQ

Q: Is a shadow card effect considered an encounter card effect?

A: Yes. Cards that prevent characters from canceling encounter card effects also prevent players from canceling shadow card effects.

'Sigh'

That is complete bull.

I have been using Elfhelm ("Response: After your threat is raised as the result of questing unsuccessfully, or by an encounter or quest card effect") to cancel threat raises from shadow effects. I've found him especially good for Carn Dum when you have that condition in play that turns all blank shadows into +2 threat. It's been a lifesaver.

Sure, there are one or two instances where there is a ban on cancelling encounter cards, and that means shadows as well, but it has benefits too.

It is a coop game after all, so you are Free to Choose to ignore the ruling if you want

Just stumbled upon this and have to say I agree with midwestborn. I have always played that encounter card effects and shadow card effects are two very different things. Yes they both come from the encounter deck but one is revealed (or added to staging) and the other is dealt during combat and flipped (not revealed). If they are both "encounter card effects" and it is all just the same thing then why do we have both hasty stroke and a test of will why do we not just have one card that allows us to cancel an encounter card effect that was "just revealed" or "flipped" in the case of shadow cards or "just triggered" which would cover both.

Every single time that you think you are finally playing the game 100% correct (or you know 99.9% correct, there is always room for minor errors!) and are playing as fairly and officially as you can you find some other ruling you don't know about and have never seen before, be it fairly recent or very old, that contradicts other rulings or gameplay but is newer so is "official"....

I mean there are probably so few times that this particular case would have even made an impact for me (crebain is killed pretty quickly in my games) outside of Wastes because most quests that do have this sort of uncancellable/unavoidable mechanic usually have treachery cards that simply read this effect cannot be cancelled or similar for the shadow effect and same wording, this effect cannot be cancelled, but it does mean all my wins of Wastes of Eriador are suspect as I have no idea if I cancelled any shadow effects that would have lead to a loss and if I did so during day or night. Time to go back and beat it again I guess...... although I have to say no cancelling of shadow cards during Night can make a pretty big difference and perhaps now I understand why some people are talking about this quest being so **** difficult. It was hard enough to get used to and get consistent wins on without this extra bit of difficulty so with this in effect as well it would be even more painful to grind out consistent wins.

Other than the cards Crebain, Eaves of Mirkwood and during Nightfall in Wastes of Eriador I'm not sure if there are any other (or many) cards that stop all encounter card effects from being cancelled (probably is one or two I can't think of), just cards that cannot be cancelled themselves. I have to say its pretty **** annoying that rules issues this complex can stem from an effect only a small handful of cards create in just a few select quests.

If you look at this thread (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/62792-encounter-card-effects-cannot-be-cancelled/)

there was a ruling from Nate French elsewhere that someone posted that reads shadow card effects are not encounter card effects. The users on the thread seemed annoyed that shadow cards were in fact not encounter card effects and that they should be because they are printed on encounter cards essentially. As much as I agree with this logic and totally understand their frustration I disagree and think that the previous ruling by Nate should remain and encounter card effects (forced and passive effects on treacheries, locations enemies and quests) and shadow card effects should remain as two completely different things. This however was apparently not meant to be. Caleb completely flipped this ruling on its head, which can be seen in this thread:(https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/90968-are-shadow-cards-revealed-from-the-encounter-deck/)

What I personally believe has happened here is that both Eaves and Crebain should have read "when revealed effects cannot be cancelled" not encounter card effects as that clearly does somewhat alude to the fact that this would include shadow effects too as they are after all encounter cards that the shadow effect is coming from. People on the forums picked up on this which was not meant to be the case so when people asked Nate he ruled no it does not apply to shadow cards and shadow effects are not encounter card effects when in reality they should be considered so and the cards should have just read differently to begin with and this was a dodgy fix to the situation. Then Caleb and Matt have come along and were like well no it should play as it reads and makes sense, shadow cards are encounter cards therefore shadow effects are encounter effects and so these cards stop shadow effects from being cancelled as well. I get that in both cases they are trying to simply resolve the issue and actually make things clearer but what we end up with is a complete mess and things are less clear...

This is obviously pure speculation but sounds right to me given the situation.

Changing rules so unnecessarily from a game already so established and fantastic seems really counter intuitive to me...

Why not just print Nightfall in Wastes of Eriador as: It is night, encounter card effects cannot be cancelled and shadow effects cannot be cancelled. Instead we get this rules change and yet another addition to the million page FAQ/Errata manual.

(I am aware this ruling was ages back and not right after Wastes or anything its just that I don't think its had any real influence or importance until Wastes because of Nightfall)

Suddenly this harmless enemy and location from old quests (eaves and crebain) turn into these powerhouse encounter cards that stop any cancelling of shadow cards, considering shadow cards can be potential game enders this is just silly. Not being able to cancel that one devastating shadow card with the shadow cancellation card and resources you specifically saved to do so because of a card that was designed and intended to stop you cancelling treacheries but some dodgy rule change now allows that card to stop shadow cancellation as well is just ridiculous.

I get that it is a fairly complex game and has had different people in charge of it at different times but it still makes me sad that the rules can be so ambiguous or up in the air sometimes and people on the forum will be almost positive of how they think a ruling should go and then bam, we get a ruling that states the opposite and everyone is shocked. Or someone asks about rules that are set in stone, then don't really agree with what they read/are told for whatever reason and ask Caleb who then provides a ruling that directly contradicts the existing older one and everyone else has to accept this and move forward playing this new way all of a sudden. Another issue with all these changes to the rules is that you will always have people on either side of the camp as well, some who believe the original ruling should remain and are upset it is being changed and may even continue to play using the old ruling and those who believe the new ruling makes more sense and might have even already been playing it that way. It leads to arguments and vast discussions about which is right, which makes more sense etc etc

Don't get me wrong I think it takes dedication and lots of respect for your fan base for Caleb to answer every rules query he gets sent and I have certainly sent through quite a few over the last few years. I think clearing up rules issues so quickly for users is amazing service and I think he is a great guy for doing it, it is the contradictory rulings that bother me.

For someone who is a bit of a stickler for the rules and likes to play as genuinely, authentically and correctly as possible at all times it is extremely frustrating following all the rules but then finding out you are playing something wrong that received errata or that was simply flipped and changed because of a newer ruling on the forums. When it is also a ruling you cannot see the sense of or completely disagree with and don't get why it was changed to begin with or just seems like it was changed to fit better with some new cards in a new quest it is about a million times more frustrating.

Because of your personal belief and opinion (not to mention the fact a main designer and previous ruling backs this up) do you play the way you think it should be or because you are a stickler for the rules and want an "official" and unquestionable victory do you play with the new rulings? Either way you are not really entirely happy....

I get that this is a co-op or solo game and not competitive and is a game that is dripping with theme and flavour more than anything else. I get that it stays as canon and true to the source material as possible whilst also expanding and imagining beyond what we know about middle earth and I love it for this. Finally I get that there are a variety of different ways you can play the game, both official and unofficial and that many people play variants or house rules of their own. All of this is not an excuse for the rules to be a little bit shoddy however and if it were not for all these things and this was not the amazing game it is flavour and mechanics wise people would not forgive the rules issues we get from time to time so easily. Not everyone wants to play with house rules or on easy mode or just interpreting the rules in their own way. Some of us want a 100% clean undisputed perfect victory when we win our games. Lastly the various issues with the rules as well as the fact that variants of the game and different difficulties exist (and not just easy, normal, nightmare as there are fan variants of easy, you need to take into consideration how many decks/players are being used etc) and the fact that so many people play with house rules can make it very difficult at times for players to compare results or provide suggestions. Some players might be reporting their experience of a new quest and saying it is insanely easy when you find it very difficult. These players reporting on their experiences could be using any manner of house rules and you don't know what errata or big rules changes they are aware or unaware of. This is on top of the fact that everyone is already using different decks and strategy but at least that is all usually explained and listed or can be easily accessed or asked for. What they may have done wrong or right or whether they allow themselves to undo mistakes or bad choices or if they use any house rules or personal errata (some people use their own errata for core set allies etc who are almost unplayable to make them far more valuable and worthwhile for example which is totally fair enough but means someone could be playing with "non official" cards that you don't have access to as they essentially do not actually exist which may give them quite a bit of a boost in their games compared to yours) however is something far more difficult to know or find out about and I feel like because of that it is often quite hard for any two players to compare their experiences legitimately.

To many, this level of freedom on how you play and it being so different for everyone is a really good thing and may even be one of their favourite things about the game but in my opinion it makes it very difficult for players to see eye to eye as often as they should on the forums, makes the rules far more of a nightmare than they should be and just in general leads to a lot of misinformation, disagreement and confusion across the board. Decks that are stated to be super powerful but are in fact mediocre with certain errata issued quite a while ago that some people are aware of and follow but others are not aware of or do not agree with so to some the deck is still a powerhouse but to others it is nowhere near as good. People posting about their epic victories or being like hey I did x to barely scrape by a win on this quest thats legal right....? and being told the bad news it is not in fact legal because of recent ruling X that changes the rules and/or effects for that particular encounter card. I mean some of the users on the forum that as a community we have a lot of respect for and many consider some of the better and more strategic players sometimes make youtube videos of their games. Within minutes people have pointed out some minor mistakes they have made that would change the entire game and potentially change the end result. Sometimes these mistakes pointed out are not at all mistakes and the person pointing them out is not aware of some new ruling or errata. Sometimes they are not at all mistakes but the person pointing them out has just made a minor error or not taken something into consideration (Galadriel letting an ally quest for free for example) or perhaps the person who made the video forgets to specifically mention why he is doing something the way he is doing it so it appears he is doing it wrong but is in fact not (does not say "gandalf does not exhaust to quest because of galadriels ability" but rather just commits him without exhausting him but does not say anything). Then there is the possibility they person making the video actually did make a mistake or are unaware of errata or new rulings themselves which happens just as often.

Why are these players making mistakes? Why are any of us who play it religiously and meticulously making unintentional mistakes and ones we are not even aware of so often? Too many contradictory rulings and rulings from designers that seem to focus more on making the game harder or more punishing and making cards do what they WANT them to do rather than making them do what they SHOULD do based on already existing cards or rules.

There have been more than a few conflicting rulings in the past. The official FAQ ruling or the newer ruling takes precendence.

Also, holy wall of text, Batman!

Lol wow. You didn't just agree with me you REALLY agree with me. All things considered I actually think Caleb and Matt do a fantastic job. I simply disagree with the ruling but I was just being an over the top d-bagish troll because I felt like poking a bit of fun in my frustration.

Shadow cards to my understanding have always been treated as a sort of bonus ability enemies get on attack. Other than that they cease to be encounter cards, basically everything else is blank. Things in this game have a very specific classification system for a reason. Things that come off the top of the encounter deck into play are "encounter cards". Hence why Thalin doesn't damage things coming off the orc deck or stewards fear conspiracy deck for instance. Cards that are placed on top of enemies are shadow cards with a possible bonus ability, not encounter cards, everything else is blank. "When revealed" is different than "discarded" or "added". Terminology matters. Yes you are technically "revealing" it in the English sense of the word "reveal" as you get to see it with your eyes but these terms always have been used in a game function sense not a literal sense. Therefore just because it has an encounter card back and is functionally an encounter card while part of the encounter deck or non-functionally an encounter card when you are storing it separately organized from player cards in your closet for example, in a game function sense it ceases to be an encounter card when it becomes a shadow card.

Finally, consider 'sacked' from Carrock. When revealed as a treachery it cannot be cancelled but when its shadow effect tells you to resolve the when revealed effect, that shadow effect can be cancelled. It makes perfect sense. The hasty stroke would cancel the shadow effect before you even read the when revealed text as the card is functionally different until the effects are resolved. I swear if they change this I will go medievil on them. Mediearth rather

Don't complain too loudly about rules clarity, or we'll end up with LotR LCG V2.0

Don't complain too loudly about rules clarity, or we'll end up with LotR LCG V2.0

I was thinking of that yesterday while noticing the fluidity of the new AGoT. Assuming at the end of cycle 6 they'll have both rotk boxes out. I bet they go there next

There have been more than a few conflicting rulings in the past. The official FAQ ruling or the newer ruling takes precendence.

Also, holy wall of text, Batman!

Wow, this thread got out of hand really quickly! Back to original topic.

If you can't cancel shadow cards, how about discarding them? I built Gandalf-Elrond-Merry deck with Vilia and used Gandalf's Staff to discard shadow cards from enemies in both day and night. After my threat got to dangerous levels, Merry was able to hold it until I was finished. In the end, I used Flame of Anor to blow that wolf into oblivion. Is this strategy ok by the rules?