I think successful podcast episodes have 3 things in about equal measure: Silliness. Crunchiness. Insightfulness. I think this episode veered pretty hard into crunchiness so we could check off "objectives" from the to do list.

We'll have a light one next time to balance it out

BTW for those interested in the twitch stream, I have done my first Armada test (not a game, just getting the settings right)

http://www.twitch.tv/wwpdsteven/v/26182324

I should be broadcasting around 5PM EST tomorrow for my league game.

I think successful podcast episodes have 3 things in about equal measure: Silliness. Crunchiness. Insightfulness. I think this episode veered pretty hard into crunchiness so we could check off "objectives" from the to do list.

We'll have a light one next time to balance it out

BTW for those interested in the twitch stream, I have done my first Armada test (not a game, just getting the settings right)http://www.twitch.tv/wwpdsteven/v/26182324

I should be broadcasting around 5PM EST tomorrow for my league game.

That's awesome, pretty stoked to watch and ridicule your games. I've been toying with the idea of getting a video setup for local games... Possibly for Twitch, but at least recording and posting games. What kind of equipment are you using for your setup?

"We won't even modify them" Hmmm pretty sure Ackbar is a modification ^_~

What did you do to that ISD base!

I like it. I have been wondering on how to do battle reports myself. Could you tell me how you got the camera setup?

Not to derail the comversation, but finally finished the episode. Great one guys. Truly enjoyed it, really stoked about the squadron one coming up. The rant on rogues at the end had me ready to listen for another two hours.

I do feel like you are underestimating the value of Dangerous Territory in MSU lists. I've won games in that objective because of the freedom of movement afforded by being able to simply ignore the obstacles on the board. That said, I do agree that it doesn't possess the swing potential of some of the other blue objectives. Plus, if you really want one of your other objectives to be taken, Dangerous Territory wont scare anyone into a forced choice.

it doesn't possess the swing potential of some of the other blue objectives. Plus, if you really want one of your other objectives to be taken, Dangerous Territory wont scare anyone into a forced choice.

These are the exact points that make us give it a such a poor rating. Its possible for your opponent to bypass some initial Objective points to charge you and make them up through kills. If you collect all tokens you are a resourceful player and your opponent is subpar. Even then, its possible to come on top with -90pts in 400pt Games, though marginally.

EPIPHANY! I have been commenting and reflecting a lot lately about Victory Points of certain Objectives in a 400pt game world. I have commented that some will become piddly and not impact near as much as they did at 300pts. I even went so far as to say "Is FFG going to up the points on some OBJs? Gawsh! Newbs!" (last bits in overexaggerated jest)

It hit me today that perhaps they were planned for 400pt games all along. Silly me. And silly you for not offering up this counter logic. Newbs! /wink

it doesn't possess the swing potential of some of the other blue objectives. Plus, if you really want one of your other objectives to be taken, Dangerous Territory wont scare anyone into a forced choice.

These are the exact points that make us give it a such a poor rating. Its possible for your opponent to bypass some initial Objective points to charge you and make them up through kills. If you collect all tokens you are a resourceful player and your opponent is subpar. Even then, its possible to come on top with -90pts in 400pt Games, though marginally.

I know they are, thats why the sentence began with "I agree". I just think you undervalued the freedom of movement it offers second player from a tactial perspective. Also, and I can't remember if this was mentioned, but for the large based ship not having to worry about obstacles may be very nice. Particularly the ISD.

Also, and I think Dan touched upon this, while both sides get to place three tokens closer to themselves, in practice the first player should be forced to place two of the three asteroids, and as such would be forced to enjoy two face up crits in the face. If they then kill a command to heal it up, then at least thats one turns command you forced their choice. I think it has a lot of synergy with Dodonna or Riekann MSU builds that can get on the opponent quickly and take advantage of predictable positioning or pre-emptive damage.

All that said, I don't feel like you guys are undervaluing it a whole lot. Every point you did make about it (what was already mentioned, that its a "safe blue" etc) was, in my estimation, on point. Just felt its a little bit better then you gave it credit for being.

So, was just listening again to the convoluted discussion about ion cannons and crits and upgrades early in the episode, and I think I get where Dano was going with the crit/defense timing thing. I'm just really struggling to find a scenario where it matters.

Say you're unloading an Overload Pulse CR90 into the side of a VSD. You roll 2 crits and a hit.

WRONG ORDER:

Attacker rolls C-C-H

Attacker says "using OP"

Defender declares he's using brace and redirect, because why not? They're all getting exhausted anyway.

Crit resolves, exhausting all defense tokens.

Damage is totaled, halved for brace, and rounded up, to 2.

Redirect takes effect, and defender redirects one to the front.

Defender has three exhausted tokens, 1 shield in the rear, 2 shields on the side, 3 shields on the front.

WITH THE OP HEAD FAKE, IN ORDER:

Attacker rolls C-C-H

Defender declares he's using brace and redirect, because why not? They're probably getting exhausted anyway.

Attacker declares he's using the default crit.

Crit resolves with delayed effect ("the first damage card")

Damage is totaled, halved for brace, and rounded up, to 2.

Redirect takes effect, and defender redirects one to the front.

Defender has two exhausted tokens, 1 shield in the rear, 2 shields on the side, 3 shields on the front.

NO HEAD-FAKE, IN ORDER:

Attacker rolls C-C-H

Defender declares he's using brace and redirect, because why not? They're probably getting exhausted anyway.

Attacker declares he's using the OP crit.

Crit resolves, exhausting all defense tokens.

Damage is totaled, halved for brace, and rounded up, to 2.

Redirect takes effect, and defender redirects one to the front.

Defender has three exhausted tokens, 1 shield in the rear, 2 shields on the side, 3 shields on the front.

I think it's the same for ICB, ACM and APT, best I can tell... I just can't think of a situation where it would be better for you to not use your default critical, AND in which the defender might want to do something different based on not having the information of which effect you're resolving. Not to say it doesn't exist, but I can't think of one if it does.

Its mostly that, you could elect to have your Regular Critical hit, and then find your damage Braced/Redirected away.

There have been times where people have elected to throw the ACM crit at me, and I elect to just take it on the nose of a Nebulon for shield and hull damage, when that instead could have been Critical Damage.

Its just about that matter of choice. In doing one, you can potentially miss an opportunity... But those potential opportunities to miss are relatively few and far between, and are generally only missed in the middle of a game when the heat is on and you're thinking about 3 turns in advance - if you're able to work out what's happening before you, do the math, count on your fingers, etc, I feel that its less of an issue.

Its mostly that, you could elect to have your Regular Critical hit, and then find your damage Braced/Redirected away.

There have been times where people have elected to throw the ACM crit at me, and I elect to just take it on the nose of a Nebulon for shield damage, when that instead could have been Critical Damage.

Its just about that matter of choice.

So, I get that it's about the choice for the attacker, but I'm having trouble picturing the scenario where the defender's actions are different based on the knowledge of which crit it will be.

If I understand your example, you're getting shot into the nose of a Neb, enough to punch through the shields, so say have 1 shield on the nose, no damage on the sides, both braces exhausted, and an ACM Glad rolls Hit/hit-crit.

If he elects to use the default crit effect, you would burn a brace based on that knowledge to keep from getting a faceup.

If he elects to ACM, you would not burn the brace, take a hit on both sides, and take a facedown.

Okay, I guess I could see that.

Its mostly that, you could elect to have your Regular Critical hit, and then find your damage Braced/Redirected away.

There have been times where people have elected to throw the ACM crit at me, and I elect to just take it on the nose of a Nebulon for shield damage, when that instead could have been Critical Damage.

Its just about that matter of choice.

So, I get that it's about the choice for the attacker, but I'm having trouble picturing the scenario where the defender's actions are different based on the knowledge of which crit it will be.

If I understand your example, you're getting shot into the nose of a Neb, enough to punch through the shields, so say have 1 shield on the nose, no damage on the sides, both braces exhausted, and an ACM Glad rolls Hit/hit-crit.

If he elects to use the default crit effect, you would burn a brace based on that knowledge to keep from getting a faceup.

If he elects to ACM, you would not burn the brace, take a hit on both sides, and take a facedown.

Okay, I guess I could see that.

Dodannas pride is actually the perfect case where that's important, since it actively takes damage away to deal a crit. So if you roll a 3 damage roll with a crit, there's an opportunity for your opponent to assume you'll trigger dodannas pride, and instead you can take the three damage and potentially deal a crit anyway

The situations are few and far between. But they are there. So it is important to have the procedure in mind.

I volunteer to be a commentator!

it doesn't possess the swing potential of some of the other blue objectives. Plus, if you really want one of your other objectives to be taken, Dangerous Territory wont scare anyone into a forced choice.

These are the exact points that make us give it a such a poor rating. Its possible for your opponent to bypass some initial Objective points to charge you and make them up through kills. If you collect all tokens you are a resourceful player and your opponent is subpar. Even then, its possible to come on top with -90pts in 400pt Games, though marginally.

I know they are, thats why the sentence began with "I agree". I just think you undervalued the freedom of movement it offers second player from a tactial perspective. Also, and I can't remember if this was mentioned, but for the large based ship not having to worry about obstacles may be very nice. Particularly the ISD.

Also, and I think Dan touched upon this, while both sides get to place three tokens closer to themselves, in practice the first player should be forced to place two of the three asteroids, and as such would be forced to enjoy two face up crits in the face. If they then kill a command to heal it up, then at least thats one turns command you forced their choice. I think it has a lot of synergy with Dodonna or Riekann MSU builds that can get on the opponent quickly and take advantage of predictable positioning or pre-emptive damage.

All that said, I don't feel like you guys are undervaluing it a whole lot. Every point you did make about it (what was already mentioned, that its a "safe blue" etc) was, in my estimation, on point. Just felt its a little bit better then you gave it credit for being.

Like Madaghmire said, unless your opponent tries to block your obstacle placement then you've got the station, a debris field, and an asteroid. They've got a debris field and two asteroids. Dodonna loves including this mission in his lists, I struggle to think of a time I'd use any other blue in a Dodonna list. Few opponents want to give you two free chances to choose a crit, since there's plenty of options that can linger until they reach combat, even if they've planned engineering dials.

Because of that most people I've seen will grab the objective on the debris field and ignore the asteroids. That's 45-15 turn one, then you can send something fast to grab the two objectives they've missed (Dodonna's Pride or your MC30s wanted to flank the opponent anyway), making it 75-15.

I'm also a bit YOLO about flying over asteroids and debris fields anyway, so this means I won't be punished for doing that. Almost like having Jaina's Light on my entire fleet.

It's going to suit some lists better than others, and that's a great thing!

Good podcast as usual.

BUT...

I'm positive some savvy Armada fleet commander is going to map out a future list (if not already), armed with his new found knowledge about the special timing of Non-Basic Criticals, and ambush an opponent with obviousness. My only regret is that I can't witness every instance of it across the globe. Sweeter still would be it happening to a 'snoozer'. (<---this is general chiding).

So go forth brothahs! Wield your Karma Bats into battle and retell your stories of conquest through Rules As Written!!!

Back to the tub I go...need to re-evaluate Neb Bs and their roles in the 400pt Wave 2 Ackbar world.

Well I know this is a niche case, but APT with Dodonna is bonkers. There isn't much of a fake since its an extra damage anyway, so its overall just a better version of the default crit, but with the timing you do the crit before the rest of the damage goes through. Meaning if you can pull one of the two shield damage cards you can strip shields before resolving damage. Now this could result in your opponent spending their redirect before you strip those shields, and now they don't have anything left to redirect to.

Great episode and discussion in this thread. This is one of the few podcasts I listen to twice in order to try and really absorb/understand what is said.

As far as the comment above about FFG designing a standard game to be X number of points - I could be wrong but I thought the initial copy of the tournament rules specified 180 for core set only, then 300 once wave 1 hit, then 400 once wave 2 hit and thereafter. So I think FFG did design all the victory token point values from objectives with 400 points in mind.

Does anybody think FFG will release new objectives at some point? The objectives are a big part of the reason why I like this game better than X-Wing - games can just feel so different from each other.

Here is a crazy scenario.

A Dodonna MC30 Torpedo boat with Assault Proton Torpedoes (APT) and Heavy Turbo Lasers / XI7 rolls total 6 dmg damage with black crits against an ISD front arc (4 shields).

Defender chooses to only use Brace

You use your APT critical effect, choose Projector Misaligned, resolve immediately to eliminate the most shielded hull zone in this case being the front.

Resolve 6 dmg Braced to 3 dmg directly onto the hull for a grand total of 3 face downs, 1 face up and 4 shields gone.

Ouch.

Never mind... Found my answer.

Does anybody think FFG will release new objectives at some point? The objectives are a big part of the reason why I like this game better than X-Wing - games can just feel so different from each other.

I hope so.

I hope that they add a new colour or category of missions and players have to pick 3 missions each of a different category but will drop a category of missions.

There is a lot of scope here so I also hope they take time and put the effort into making sure the game remains balanced and challenging.

Does anybody think FFG will release new objectives at some point? The objectives are a big part of the reason why I like this game better than X-Wing - games can just feel so different from each other.

I hope so.

I hope that they add a new colour or category of missions and players have to pick 3 missions each of a different category but will drop a category of missions.

There is a lot of scope here so I also hope they take time and put the effort into making sure the game remains balanced and challenging.

That sounds like a pretty good idea. That way if you just hated all the blues or whatever, you would never have to take one.

I can report that I finally got my damage deck holder.

Was your damage dealing device disjointed, dinged, defective or demolished?

Was your damage dealing device corrupted, dominated, devastated or demolished?

Fixed that for ya.

Was your damage dealing device disjointed, dinged, defective or demolished?

Here is a crazy scenario.

A Dodonna MC30 Torpedo boat with Assault Proton Torpedoes (APT) and Heavy Turbo Lasers / XI7 rolls total 6 dmg damage with black crits against an ISD front arc (4 shields).

Defender chooses to only use Brace

You use your APT critical effect, choose Projector Misaligned, resolve immediately to eliminate the most shielded hull zone in this case being the front.

Resolve 6 dmg Braced to 3 dmg directly onto the hull for a grand total of 3 face downs, 1 face up and 4 shields gone.

Ouch.