Vykes, regarding gunnery team eliminating the adv gunnery objective advantage;

I would say it does not, as gunnery team is an upgrade that you may choose to employ. (Unlike, say, Slaved Turrets) The word "cannot" would therefore not come into play, because you would not be using gunnery team on your objective ship. Just how I interpret it.

Gunnery Teams is worded like a modification. It is not a choice of using it as more if a 'if you attack twice from a single hull zone X occurs'

I feel like thats just super rules lawyery. But I can do that too. Watch;

The choice is implicit in the card's wording. Gunnery team states "You can attack from

the same hullzone more than once..." before we get to the cannot part. In and of itself that presents a choice. You can do it, but you don't have to. Since you don't have to use it, you are free to use the objective ship ability without triggering the Gunnery Team qualifier, as the "cannot" in gunnery team only refers to attacks made possible by the players choice to use the gunnery team upgrade to enable the second shot.

I agree it could be worded better.

Gunnery Teams does state "you can" but it is not a may ability. May abilities are those that are 100% optional. However a can ability denotes a trigger of some sort. Shooting out of the same hull zone twice is the trigger.

I think that's a fair comment, cuban! We'd had multiple requests to shop talk objs so figured we'd try it.

Gunnery Teams does state "you can" but it is not a may ability. May abilities are those that are 100% optional. However a can ability denotes a trigger of some sort. Shooting out of the same hull zone twice is the trigger.

Now I am curious... Do we have any other upgrades that say "Can" but we generally consider them Optional?

Because this is another thing where we're trying to put English rules into effect when there is no hard-and-fast rule written on it...

EDIT:

Advanced Projectors - Can choose more than one hull zone.

Yavaris - Can attack twice if it does not move.

Demolisher - Can attack after moving.

And maybe... Mon Mothma? Although I guess the FAQ says it does not have its original effect...

But I think that does lend some creedance to can being optional, which may is also.

Gunnery Teams does state "you can" but it is not a may ability. May abilities are those that are 100% optional. However a can ability denotes a trigger of some sort. Shooting out of the same hull zone twice is the trigger.

Now I am curious... Do we have any other upgrades that say "Can" but we generally consider them Optional?

Because this is another thing where we're trying to put English rules into effect when there is no hard-and-fast rule written on it...

EDIT:

Advanced Projectors - Can choose more than one hull zone.

Yavaris - Can attack twice if it does not move.

Demolisher - Can attack after moving.

And maybe... Mon Mothma? Although I guess the FAQ says it does not have its original effect...

But I think that does lend some creedance to can being optional, which may is also.

It is a trigger clause more than an opinion clause.

Now when this gets asked of FFG I will likely be wrong but it is just my interpretation of things.

I've submitted the question to FFG, I'll report back with whatever they say. We might as well put this to bed now, I feel like all the relevant points have been made and it could still be argued either way.

I've submitted the question to FFG, I'll report back with whatever they say. We might as well put this to bed now, I feel like all the relevant points have been made and it could still be argued either way.

Yup. I would hate it if I am right and really wish I am not. It would make Advanced Gunnery a horrible objective for an Assault Frigate Ackbar list. . .

Slowly digesting the episode. I won't lie... My eyes glazed over early with the crits and defense token talk.

The objectives talk is fun. But a lot to take in if you're not 100% dialed in. I'll probably finish it tomorrow on the treadmill or the commute to work.

I have yet to witness the enlightenment that is IFF: XIV Objective Overload. but to a point about upgrade cards which was made on the first page.

My understanding of upgrade cards is that you can always choose to play your ship as if it did not have the aforesaid upgrade card unless that upgrade card is like Captain Needa and you did swap out your redirect for an evade. So if you have slaved turrets you can either attack with two sides or from just one with an extra red dice. I'm not 100% certain so I'm not directly responding to someone.

That's tactics, you may take notes if you so desire

Ooh!

Effect Use and Timing, Page 5, RRG:


• Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified.

Good find, I'd subscribe to that if I had to make any call. But I'm still not entirely comfortable with it.

The slaved turrets thing sounds like an absolute: " You cannot attack more than once per round. While attacking a ship, add 1 red die to your attack pool." It's a sort of slippery slope because of the implications. I can't think of any except Slaved Turrets which might merit the 'unless otherwise specified' clause coming into effect. Even then, there's Admiral Kaan's above interpretation --which I may not ascribe too, but as I can't think of any examples, it sounds fair--.

Do we have any examples of 'All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified'? I'd really like some more exposure just so I can get used to identifying when the state would call for an absolute compared to just a pick and choose effect. I mean, the 'chose your critical effect' was mentioned a few times, but I just really don't like the Golden Rule's wording that "Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rues found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the components effects take precedence" and the ship is still following the upgrade card per se.

I'm not going to push any interpretation, I'm just uncomfortable with this one. -Shrugs- maybe that's just me, so thanks to Madaghmire for sending it in . Maybe I'm just bitter because Precision Strike's advantage is entirely negated by my foremost Rebel admiral. Now that I think of it, a lot of the issues I saw taking place about rules precedents were focused around Mon Mothma, Demolisher with engine tech, and especially Advanced Projectors

Slaved Turrets may be the only example under the "mandatory unless otherwise specified" field... Its not the only one. Currently we have rules that state if an attack die is rolled for anything other than an attack, its result does not count as damage - and there's no cards that ask you to roll a die outside of attacks at the moment, as far as I could see... Although I'm not 100% on Wave 2.

So, either way, wave 2 changes something. Hmm, I lean towards your interpretation of it, but I'll remain uncommitted someone makes me take a position I got a bit burned by the XI-7 thing so I'm reluctant (rather than recalcitrant)

Great show lads...no matter how convoluted the conversation, the exchange and banter make the whole thing.(Dano, yer mad and twisted...and right on the mark)....the soon arrival of the Sacred Wave(2) of the Blessed sisters of misery, will open up the can of Worms we've all been waiting for...

then, well see....

I salute you

Guys, I am really wondering if you could help me figure this out regarding critical effects:

When do critical effects actually resolve in relation to the beginning of damage?

Example: If I resolve Assault Concussion Missiles, does it happen before other damage is taken or after? Does it immediately ping each side with or without shields, or does it wait until after damage is redirected? Same with Assault Proton Torpedoes and NK-7 Ion Cannons. It seems like this is a potentially important element to determine which upgrades to take.

It happens after defense tokens are spent/declared, but before damage is resolved. This is mostly important for redirects when using acms, and specific crits such as projector misalignment/capacitor failure combo while using apts.

It's important to maintain that defense tokens are first spent, as evades can cancel crits before you can trigger Amy crit effects.

Cannot

Wouldn't that be covered by the "Golden Rules": If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

Well that makes slaved turrets one heck of a lot worse.

Edit 1: Hate to double post: So I was going to pick a fight with Dano regarding the critical hits section he was discussing around say minutes 28 to 33, specifically the effect of Ion Cannon Batteries. I just double checked the rules and he has the right of it.

Page 15 of the Learn to Play booklet, paragraph 3, "Before the defender determines the total damage amount from an attack, the attacker can resolve a critical effect..."

Page 15 of the Learn to Play booklet, paragraph 1, "When a ship suffers damage, it suffers each point of damage separately..."

Page 22 of the Learn to Play booklet, paragraph 6?, "Critical effects are devastating effects that the attacker can resolve during an attack before totaling the damage amount..."

Yeah, so that Ion Cannon battery effect would strip a shield off the defender before he ever got to redirect or take the damage from the attack. So long as you target a hull zone with shields, you're getting an extra damage through no matter what. + 10 to Dano.

I'll finish any later thoughts once someone else has posted. Fight on IFF crew!

Throwing a rule question out there! Where is the rule that states one ship can block another's movement? You hear Dano say you can just park a Raider right in front of an MC80 and it can't move so you can then easily have other ships blow it up. The rules state ships can't stop a ship from moving with the exception of an overlap. Whats the deal?

I'm sure he referenced an overlap. The slower they are the harder to get around the parked ship.

When I was at uni we were taught to break up complex clauses in a contract into a flow chart. So I did that with the attack sequence.

Here

I always used to say that people listening to a podcast I'm in will walk away feeling smahtah. They either learned something new, or they determine they are wisah/smartah than the me. Win win really. My goal is selfish...I want to cultivate mo goodah opponents. (accented for emphasis...so you know how serious I am. But not so serious that I put my lifelong Armada record in my signature block. Completely different levels of seriousness there.)

Well now I can add 'well rested' to that, lol. Wicked smaht and well rested listeners! I LIKE IT!

BUT...

I'm positive some savvy Armada fleet commander is going to map out a future list (if not already), armed with his new found knowledge about the special timing of Non-Basic Criticals, and ambush an opponent with obviousness. My only regret is that I can't witness every instance of it across the globe. Sweeter still would be it happening to a 'snoozer'. (<---this is general chiding).

So go forth brothahs! Wield your Karma Bats into battle and retell your stories of conquest through Rules As Written!!!

Back to the tub I go...need to re-evaluate Neb Bs and their roles in the 400pt Wave 2 Ackbar world.

I always used to say that people listening to a podcast I'm in will walk away feeling smahtah. They either learned something new, or they determine they are wisah/smartah than the me. Win win really. My goal is selfish...I want to cultivate mo goodah opponents. (accented for emphasis...so you know how serious I am. But not so serious that I put my lifelong Armada record in my signature block. Completely different levels of seriousness there.)

Well now I can add 'well rested' to that, lol. Wicked smaht and well rested listeners! I LIKE IT!

BUT...

I'm positive some savvy Armada fleet commander is going to map out a future list (if not already), armed with his new found knowledge about the special timing of Non-Basic Criticals, and ambush an opponent with obviousness. My only regret is that I can't witness every instance of it across the globe. Sweeter still would be it happening to a 'snoozer'. (<---this is general chiding).

So go forth brothahs! Wield your Karma Bats into battle and retell your stories of conquest through Rules As Written!!!

Back to the tub I go...need to re-evaluate Neb Bs and their roles in the 400pt Wave 2 Ackbar world.

After listening to the programs, I go away being entertained and alittle "Smahtah" always...you lads are always thinking outside the realm of a box. Thats what makes IFF so appealing. You don't take yourselves seriously, but you're passionate about the Game that we all love....thats the Point!!!

Duggs Rule!!

So, either way, wave 2 changes something. Hmm, I lean towards your interpretation of it, but I'll remain uncommitted someone makes me take a position I got a bit burned by the XI-7 thing so I'm reluctant (rather than recalcitrant)

Y'know me, always willing to wear the harvested skin of a Rules Lawyer so I can enter their world and leave unmolested, as I smell like one of them

That episode felt like a college lecture. I didn't do so hot in college.

If I want to get more out of it I'll need to re-listen with the cards in hand and not doing anything else.

I think successful podcast episodes have 3 things in about equal measure: Silliness. Crunchiness. Insightfulness. I think this episode veered pretty hard into crunchiness so we could check off "objectives" from the to do list.

We'll have a light one next time to balance it out

BTW for those interested in the twitch stream, I have done my first Armada test (not a game, just getting the settings right)

http://www.twitch.tv/wwpdsteven/v/26182324

I should be broadcasting around 5PM EST tomorrow for my league game.