(I have no idea what I'll actually end up calling these. For now, they're aji, which is the Japanese word for flavor or style.)

I can't seem to dig it up in the bazillion branching RPG threads, but at one point some of us got into a discussion about how kata and kiho provide minor ways to customize a PC, breaking up the monotony of "you were trained in this school therefore are capable of XYZ" without rising to the scale of an alternate path. Somebody suggested having a similar kind of thing for courtiers: this is my thread for trying to hash that idea out.

The biggest hurdle here is, how do you limit the use of aji? Not their strength or their acquisition, but their use in play. With kiho, you can only have one of each kind active at a time (barring Martial which gets weird), they often have a duration limited in rounds, and activating them requires either a Complex Action at a low TN, a Simple Action at a higher TN, or a Void Point. With kata, you can only have one active at a time, and activating one requires a Simple Action. But since aji wouldn't be used in combat, controlling their activation through actions or their duration through rounds would be meaningless. On the other hand, tying them to Void Points makes them really expensive. Possibly make activation free, but limit duration via either hours or scenes, and cap the number of aji activations per day to Insight Rank? I dunno. Suggestions would be much appreciated.

But! Let's get to some examples of what aji would do once activated! (Note: all of this is being built on the foundation of the redesign I've been working on over here . If the skill names or other details look weird to you, that's why.)

The idea here is to create some stylistic differences between courtiers which could be shared across schools rather than restricted to a single one, and to set up mechanics for some things that I think ought to be general to courtiers, but are too complex to get packed into basic skill uses or mastery abilities. Conceptually, they represent the character putting herself into a particular frame of mind, with a resulting benefit to her actions. Let me start with some ideas that are meant to be equivalent to the "Striking As" kata series:

Stone of Truth (requires Willpower 3): You have learned how display the will behind your words. While this aji is active, you may add your Willpower Trait Rank to the total of all Sincerity rolls.

Reflection of Grace (requires Perception 3): You are swift to change your tactics based on what you observe. While this aji is active, you may add your Perception Trait Rank to the total of all Etiquette (Courtesy) rolls.

Wind of Insight (requires Awareness 3): You have attuned yourself to the nuances of other people's behavior. While this aji is active, you may add your Awareness Trait Rank to the total of all Investigation rolls targeting people you can observe.

Light of Reason (requires Intelligence 3): You bring tactical reasoning to your actions. While this aji is active, you may add your Intelligence Trait Rank to the total of all Influence rolls.

Emptiness of Self (requires Void 3): Your sense of non-being makes you difficult to influence. While this aji is active, you may add your Void Rank to the total of all Etiquette (Composure) rolls.

That's some basic stuff. To give a more complex example: in contemplating how I might redesign courtier techniques, I found myself frowning at the Doji R2, because it's the kind of thing that any courtier worth their salt ought to be able to learn. (In fact, courtiers pretty much couldn't function if the Doji were really the only ones in Rokugan capable of nonverbal signaling.) So here's a more advanced aji:

Cadence of Allies (requires Perception 3 and Awareness 3): While this aji is active, you are primed to communicate nonverbally with your fellow courtiers. You may roll Influence (Manipulation) / Awareness at TN 15 to convey a simple idea or instruction to another courtier; the target must be paying attention to you and also trained in this aji, although they need not have it active to receive your message. The GM is the final arbiter of what can be communicated through this aji: "follow that man" or "press your advantage" is suitable, but "get him to talk about what the Unicorn armies are planning for next spring" is not.

In all cases you would have to spend XP to learn these, as with kata or kiho, and you could only have one active at a time. As for how much they should cost, whether non-courtiers can learn these, or whether there are school-based restrictions on who can learn what, I think I'd need to build up a larger body of examples before I could decide. I'm more inclined to go with a one-point XP discount for certain groups than school-based restrictions, though -- it means a smaller number of aji can be more widely useful, rather than having to come up with a couple dozen just to give each school more than one option.

So: suggestions for other aji? I figure the guiding principles here should be: 1) they represent general abilities of a courtier, rather than specific tricks more unique to a particular tradition, and 2) their mechanics should be simple -- avoiding opposed rolls (or even rolls at all) when possible, no VP cost, etc. In another thread General Tacitus suggested some kind of mechanic for the escalating risks of an insult exchange; maybe that could be an aji? (Though honestly I'm leaning toward making it a Bayushi technique, either an alternate path or a part of their basic school when I get to that part of my redesign.) I'd love to get a dozen or so of these together, ranging from the basic set above up to some more high-level ones.

An interesting challenge, Kinzen. I hope that this works out, and for the time being? Aji works as good as anything else.

General Tacitus reminded me on another thread that whoever first suggested this idea called it "favors," after some mechanic in an earlier edition, which is a terminology that suggests a different approach to the whole concept. But I suspect this is more analogous to kata and kiho than favors would be, so I'm going to call it aji and run with it. :-)

... General Tacitus...

Mwahaha! Another person trips up on the spelling of my name!

*ahem*

Now for the actual topic of the thread...

Yeah, the original idea was very different from this, and I think also worthy of discussion. I could expand on it here (insofar as I recall the idea), or take it to another thread if you'd prefer to keep this one for your idea.

Regarding how to have them work mechanically... that's tricky. Unlike kata (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, kiho), these are basically never going to be used in combat, so basing their activation around combat timing doesn't do much of anything. Likewise, saying "only one active at a time" is a restriction of sorts, but you're still going to have active whichever one is best for the immediate situation. You could have X uses per day, but that seems weird and gamey to me for something that's not magical at all... maybe "one active per scene"?

This would make "Cadence of Allies" a lot worse, since using it would come at the expense of any of the others... but I actually don't think it fits as one of these. I think it's better as an emphasis of a social skill, probably Etiquette, in the same sort of way that Ciphers are an emphasis of Courtier.

Regarding who gets to buy them - I'd make them courtier-only, just like kiho are monk/shugenja only and kata or bushi-only. Partly just to preserve mechanical space for each character type, and partly because, if you're a bushi without dedicated courtier training - you probably don't have time to pick up these particularly subtle tricks of the trade. I think going with a school-specific discount is better than making them only available to particular schools - if they're so unique that only one or two schools should be able to take them, I think they'd fit better as school techs or alternate paths.

I had created a bunch of katas for courtiers for 3rd edition, based on the few katas for courtiers that existed in 2nd edition. It's an interesting concept I had been considering a lot (even suggested them for 4th edition during playtesting). I still have a bunch of concepts for those around and I may would have worked on them to post them here if I had not landed a new job starting monday. What little time I can give L5r homebrew those days will be aimed to finishing my LBS work (chapter 1 to 3 is 51 pages long now).

Mwahaha! Another person trips up on the spelling of my name!

Rest assured I will not do so again. :-)

Yeah, the original idea was very different from this, and I think also worthy of discussion. I could expand on it here (insofar as I recall the idea), or take it to another thread if you'd prefer to keep this one for your idea.

I see no problem with discussing it here -- it can get its own thread if one of us winds up trying to actually design it.

Regarding how to have them work mechanically... that's tricky. Unlike kata (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, kiho), these are basically never going to be used in combat, so basing their activation around combat timing doesn't do much of anything. Likewise, saying "only one active at a time" is a restriction of sorts, but you're still going to have active whichever one is best for the immediate situation. You could have X uses per day, but that seems weird and gamey to me for something that's not magical at all... maybe "one active per scene"?

I don't see it as too gamey, because I'm thinking of these as a special form of concentration -- kind of meditative, even if there's no Meditation roll. It is entirely possible to run out of ability to focus; happens to me all the time. :-P

I mean, yes: ultimately the driving force here is game balance. But I think it's better from a "player interest" standpoint to allow people to shift aji within a scene, rather than picking one and being stuck with it, which means the limitation needs to be elsewhere.

This would make "Cadence of Allies" a lot worse, since using it would come at the expense of any of the others... but I actually don't think it fits as one of these. I think it's better as an emphasis of a social skill, probably Etiquette, in the same sort of way that Ciphers are an emphasis of Courtier.

Calligraphy, you mean.

My issue with making it a skill emphasis is that I'd really like to avoid overcomplicating skills (any more than I have already). It feels juuuuuuuuuust a bit too complicated to fit in there, at least to my eye, but not complicated/unique enough to be a technique. I'll consider it, though. But not under Etiquette -- that doesn't fit within the frame of what each skill does, because you're not trying to affect the target's opinion of you. It would have to be Influence if anything (you're trying to provoke an action from the target).

Regarding who gets to buy them - I'd make them courtier-only, just like kiho are monk/shugenja only and kata or bushi-only. Partly just to preserve mechanical space for each character type, and partly because, if you're a bushi without dedicated courtier training - you probably don't have time to pick up these particularly subtle tricks of the trade. I think going with a school-specific discount is better than making them only available to particular schools - if they're so unique that only one or two schools should be able to take them, I think they'd fit better as school techs or alternate paths.

Agreed on that last point.

I have a vague inclination to say non-courtiers can pick up that basic series, to mirror my vague inclination to say non-bushi can pick up the Striking As series. (Only those few basic/universal ones: anything else is too complex for them.) Oooh! Inspiration just struck. Make it a purchasable Advantage, that you've managed to learn one simple kata/aji.

(Yes, I'm probably contemplating this because my campaign is Togashi Dynasty, where bushi can buy kiho and courtiers can buy social-ish spells as ~kiho. I like giving everybody an ever-so-slightly-more-wuxia touch.)

Just did a quick bit of research, but if you are looking for a word with a little more oomph to it than Aji, you might want to consider "Joseki". A joseki is a practiced set of moves in Go and Shoji, similar to a gambit or stratagem in Chess or Othello.

More information on joseki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseki

To be honest, part of the reason for choosing "aji" was that if I'm going to use a Japanese word, I figured I needed to keep it as short and simple as I could for players who don't speak the language. :-) But joseki ain't bad -- thanks! I'll keep it in mind.

Belated reply; my attention has been on redesigning the schools. I figure I shouldn't try to go too far with aji before figuring out what techniques do!

The basic idea is to draw from the Favour tables that Doji Courtiers had access to in previous editions. They'd get to call in a certain number of Favours per story (Air Ring + School Rank, IIRC), up to a level equal to their School Rank, where a given favour could be "an item worth up to X koku", "an invitation to stay at a daimyo's court", "the services of a Kakita Artisan/Kitsuki Investigator/Phoenix scholar/other Clan-iconic samurai on a single matter", "arrange an influential marriage for someone", "gain a post as an Emerald Magistrate", or various others (covering a wide spectrum of levels there, of course).

Hmmmm. I don't think I'm going to pursue that angle myself; I'd rather have those things be decided the usual way, via rolls and RP, and let the advantage courtiers have over bushi etc come from their greater focus on social traits and skills, their techniques, their advantages, and so forth. Turning it into a flat "make a roll to have somebody get made an Emerald Magistrate" feels to me like the equivalent of "make a roll to successfully capture a criminal," rather than making your bushi PCs actually hunt the guy down and fight out the skirmish.

Basically, I'd rather create a mechanic that improves your ability to do stuff, rather than short-circuiting the process and just saying "the stuff gets done."

My issue with making it a skill emphasis is that I'd really like to avoid overcomplicating skills (any more than I have already). It feels juuuuuuuuuust a bit too complicated to fit in there, at least to my eye, but not complicated/unique enough to be a technique. I'll consider it, though. But not under Etiquette -- that doesn't fit within the frame of what each skill does, because you're not trying to affect the target's opinion of you. It would have to be Influence if anything (you're trying to provoke an action from the target).

Is it that complicated? "Roll <SKILL>/<TRAIT> to convey a simple concept or message. Call Raises for slightly more complex information." Done.

Where it gets complicated is when this is treated as an application of a skill that also does other, mostly unrelated things. The issue isn't that it's so hard to explain; it's that I start to feel like I'm shoehorning in a more advanced concept at a level (basic skill use) that is supposed to be simple.

As regards the skill used for it - you're not trying to provoke an action per se, I don't think. You're trying to communicate something. That something may provoke an action, or it may not, in the same way that getting someone to like you, instilling a particular mood, or convincing someone of a fact may provoke an action on their part. Etiquette was my first thought because the idea - at least, the idea behind Cadence - is that you're weaving the message into casual conversation and innocuous gestures that pass as part of normal conversation. Etiquette is the skill of how you present yourself, and Cadence is about presenting yourself in ways that convey information to people who know how to pick up on the cues.

Really, the problem is that Cadence, as a concept, doesn't fit into either Etiquette or Influence. If anything, it's a Perform skill -- but it is *so* not worth buying an extra skill just to cover this.

Oh, and since we were talking earlier about insult exchanges and escalating Glory losses for them - I don't think that should require an aji either. Throwing taunts back and forth and doubling down on them is something that toddlers can do, it doesn't take special training.

Doubling down on insults doesn't take training -- but engineering the conversation such that your opponent has to match you or else suffer a measurable social consequence? That's more complex. Hence me contemplating making it an aji, or else a technique. Not positive yet whether I'll do it, but I'm still thinking.

I would work on some suggestions for how to do them, and post them in the other thread, buuuut I just had some inspiration on how to make spy networks and digging for information more mechanically functional and interesting, so it might take me a little while to get to it. Likewise, suggesting more agi/joseki; I'm looking through existing lists of kata and kiho in search of inspiration for effects more involved than "add this Trait to that roll", which is a good effect and all but I don't think there's a lot of design space left there.

Heh. The Spy Network thing -- one of my first house-rules for my campaign was to rein in that advantage, because it's hugely overpowered for its cost. I still treat it as a simple "roll X, get a tidbit of intel," because we aren't running an espionage-focused campaign, but it could definitely be more than that.

Regarding other aji, yeah, I don't intend them all to be "add X to this roll." That just works well as a basic, low-level effect.

Belated reply; my attention has been on redesigning the schools. I figure I shouldn't try to go too far with aji before figuring out what techniques do!

The basic idea is to draw from the Favour tables that Doji Courtiers had access to in previous editions. They'd get to call in a certain number of Favours per story (Air Ring + School Rank, IIRC), up to a level equal to their School Rank, where a given favour could be "an item worth up to X koku", "an invitation to stay at a daimyo's court", "the services of a Kakita Artisan/Kitsuki Investigator/Phoenix scholar/other Clan-iconic samurai on a single matter", "arrange an influential marriage for someone", "gain a post as an Emerald Magistrate", or various others (covering a wide spectrum of levels there, of course).

Hmmmm. I don't think I'm going to pursue that angle myself; I'd rather have those things be decided the usual way, via rolls and RP, and let the advantage courtiers have over bushi etc come from their greater focus on social traits and skills, their techniques, their advantages, and so forth. Turning it into a flat "make a roll to have somebody get made an Emerald Magistrate" feels to me like the equivalent of "make a roll to successfully capture a criminal," rather than making your bushi PCs actually hunt the guy down and fight out the skirmish.

Basically, I'd rather create a mechanic that improves your ability to do stuff, rather than short-circuiting the process and just saying "the stuff gets done."

I'd certainly agree that "snap your fingers and make an Emerald Magistrate promotion appear" is beyond the scope of what you should be able to do, even at IR5. On the other hand, I think many of the lesser examples on the list - acquire a given item, get travel papers trouble-free, get an invitation to a party, whatever - are quite reasonable.

On the other other hand, a more robust system for acquiring such routine things as travel papers across X province, an invitation to Y paper, or an appointment to speak with Z lord or official (a simple list of suggested TNs to acquire such things would go a long way, and is notably lacking right now), would serve much the same purpose. At which point a mechanic that makes courtiers better at doing those things (and other things of course) definitely seems like the way to go.

Where it gets complicated is when this is treated as an application of a skill that also does other, mostly unrelated things. The issue isn't that it's so hard to explain; it's that I start to feel like I'm shoehorning in a more advanced concept at a level (basic skill use) that is supposed to be simple.

As regards the skill used for it - you're not trying to provoke an action per se, I don't think. You're trying to communicate something. That something may provoke an action, or it may not, in the same way that getting someone to like you, instilling a particular mood, or convincing someone of a fact may provoke an action on their part. Etiquette was my first thought because the idea - at least, the idea behind Cadence - is that you're weaving the message into casual conversation and innocuous gestures that pass as part of normal conversation. Etiquette is the skill of how you present yourself, and Cadence is about presenting yourself in ways that convey information to people who know how to pick up on the cues.

Really, the problem is that Cadence, as a concept, doesn't fit into either Etiquette or Influence. If anything, it's a Perform skill -- but it is *so* not worth buying an extra skill just to cover this.

I think it fits Etiquette at least as well as Ciphers fit Calligraphy, really. They're both about the expected forms of interaction and communication; one is how you should act in person, the other is how you should write. It seems fitting to me that they should both cover hiding a coded message inside those accepted forms.

Doubling down on insults doesn't take training -- but engineering the conversation such that your opponent has to match you or else suffer a measurable social consequence? That's more complex. Hence me contemplating making it an aji, or else a technique. Not positive yet whether I'll do it, but I'm still thinking.

Well, that's just the nature of Rokugani society, no? It's accepted that failing to respond in some way to an insult constitutes acceptance, so you need to come back with some sort of rejoinder, either by turning it back on them (and thus showing them, rather than you, to be the foolish one) or calling them out for a duel. And if you decide to respond to them in kind, they face the same choice, etc. You don't need to specifically engineer the conversation to go that way, that's how the system works. While you need a certain degree of training in order to play the system well, IMO that is represented by the Etiquette skill; Insults 101 has been part of sourcebooks on playing a courtier since 1e. "How to deal with insults" is surely a basic element of training in courtly behaviour.

Heh. The Spy Network thing -- one of my first house-rules for my campaign was to rein in that advantage, because it's hugely overpowered for its cost. I still treat it as a simple "roll X, get a tidbit of intel," because we aren't running an espionage-focused campaign, but it could definitely be more than that.

Regarding other aji, yeah, I don't intend them all to be "add X to this roll." That just works well as a basic, low-level effect.

Well, as regards "add X to this roll" types, I did think of a few more...

Strength of Conviction: (Not sure what requirement would be appropriate here... a minimum Honour rank, maybe?) You infuse your words with the strength of your Honour, filling them with conviction. Add your Honour rank to your Sincerity rolls. (Or perhaps half your Honour rank? Or restrict it to Sincerity (Honesty) rolls only? I don't want to duplicate the Sincerity 3 mastery ability too closely, though).

Chains Stronger Than Steel: (requires Awarenes 4) Bushido strengthens the soul, but in skilled hands it becomes a lever that can move its adherents to your will. The targets of your Influence (Manipulation) rolls must subtract their Honour rank from their rolls to resist (or perhaps half their Honour rank?). This one one should probably come with some sort of Honour loss attached, I feel.

Mastery of Small Manners: (requires at least one Lore skill at 3) All Rokugani share a common culture, but the Empire is vast, with a dizzying variety of local customs and practices dividing the people of one region from those of another. You have learned to adapt your presentation to the expectations of those you are speaking to, setting them at their ease. You may add your ranks in an applicable Lore skill to your Etiquette rolls (Lore: Great/Minor Clan when dealing with a Clan samurai, Lore: Imperial Families for an Imperial samurai, Lore: Theology for a monk, etc).

I'd certainly agree that "snap your fingers and make an Emerald Magistrate promotion appear" is beyond the scope of what you should be able to do, even at IR5. On the other hand, I think many of the lesser examples on the list - acquire a given item, get travel papers trouble-free, get an invitation to a party, whatever - are quite reasonable.

But I don't feel like those need a focused mechanic. Need travel papers? That's precisely what Politics (Bureaucracy) is for. Want into a party? Influence (Manipulation). Item needed? Commerce if you're buying it; Politics if you're requisitioning it; Influence if you're trying to persuade someone to give it to you. The TNs for these things are either set by an opposed roll or the same as the TNs for anything else, as measured by the chart in the core book: is this supposed to be easy or moderate or hard? Getting into a party is not one size fits all; it depends on the party and who you are in relation to the host.

The argument in favor (heh) of a favor table would be that it helps courtiers be better at these things than bushi are, just as kata help bushi be superior in combat. But I don't think the two things are equivalent. Kata focus on improving or simply changing your rolls and stats during a normal skirmish. The courtier equivalent (in my opinion) ought to similarly improve/change the numbers, not just skip right to the end of what those numbers are used for. Courtiers have a minor edge insofar as they're more likely to have invested in the relevant traits and skills; for a bigger edge, I'd rather focus on the process, rather than the result.

I think it fits Etiquette at least as well as Ciphers fit Calligraphy, really. They're both about the expected forms of interaction and communication; one is how you should act in person, the other is how you should write. It seems fitting to me that they should both cover hiding a coded message inside those accepted forms.

But remember that my take on Etiquette is not precisely the one from 4e. It is still *sort of* about "how you should act in person" -- but more specifically, it's about affecting perception of you as an individual, and how much other people like/dislike you based on your behavior (courteous or insulting, serene or uncontrolled). Which isn't quite as close to the Cadence thing as the old Etiquette would be.

I haven't made a decision one way or another. Just outlining why I don't think there's a clear-cut answer that meshes with the framework in my head.

Well, that's just the nature of Rokugani society, no? It's accepted that failing to respond in some way to an insult constitutes acceptance, so you need to come back with some sort of rejoinder, either by turning it back on them (and thus showing them, rather than you, to be the foolish one) or calling them out for a duel. And if you decide to respond to them in kind, they face the same choice, etc. You don't need to specifically engineer the conversation to go that way, that's how the system works.

Right -- and that's how it works in the basic skill use as I originally outlined it, wherein you must respond either with an insult or a duel, or else lose Glory. What we're debating here is a finer point in the dynamics, i.e. a situation where simply responding isn't enough: the answering insult must clear a bar set by the instigator, or else it's as if you didn't say anything at all. (In fact, under my current rules draft, you can potentially wind up with even more egg on your face: if you fail to meet the Raises you were forced to call by a significant margin, you lose Glory for that, too. Ergo, this can be used to cow you into keeping your mouth shut, lest it turn out even worse for you.) *That's* the point where I think an additional trick can be relevant. It stops just being back-and-forth, and becomes a game where your opponent is forcing you to play by his own rules.

Strength of Conviction: (Not sure what requirement would be appropriate here... a minimum Honour rank, maybe?) You infuse your words with the strength of your Honour, filling them with conviction. Add your Honour rank to your Sincerity rolls. (Or perhaps half your Honour rank? Or restrict it to Sincerity (Honesty) rolls only? I don't want to duplicate the Sincerity 3 mastery ability too closely, though).

Yeah, I think that one winds up duplicating the mastery ability. There could be an aji that specifically lets you add that to your Deceit rolls, though. Or I'm contemplating one that lets you roll Sincerity (Deceit) to detect lies, instead of relying on Investigation -- on the theory that a good liar should be able to spot other liars, even if they're oblivious to everything else.

I followed a similar thread, thinking about the Honor thing:

Honor’s Grace (requires Awareness 4, Etiquette 3): The nobility of your spirit shines through in your conduct. You may add your Honor Rank to the total of all Etiquette (Courtesy) and Etiquette (Composure) rolls.

Chains Stronger Than Steel: (requires Awarenes 4) Bushido strengthens the soul, but in skilled hands it becomes a lever that can move its adherents to your will. The targets of your Influence (Manipulation) rolls must subtract their Honour rank from their rolls to resist (or perhaps half their Honour rank?). This one one should probably come with some sort of Honour loss attached, I feel.

Oooh -- that one's interesting! I might tweak the requirements; once I have a good mass of these, I'm going to look through and figure out how best to balance them against one another. (I strongly suspect I'll include skill requirements, alongside Traits.) But I wouldn't give this one an Honor loss; in a sense, this is a specific aspect of the "my position is the honorable one!" thing we agreed shouldn't just be a Doji technique. You aren't necessarily lying or acting dishonorably. You're just framing your argument in terms of Bushido.

Mastery of Small Manners: (requires at least one Lore skill at 3) All Rokugani share a common culture, but the Empire is vast, with a dizzying variety of local customs and practices dividing the people of one region from those of another. You have learned to adapt your presentation to the expectations of those you are speaking to, setting them at their ease. You may add your ranks in an applicable Lore skill to your Etiquette rolls (Lore: Great/Minor Clan when dealing with a Clan samurai, Lore: Imperial Families for an Imperial samurai, Lore: Theology for a monk, etc).

A broader version of that is almost certainly going to be my R3 mastery ability for the Lore macro skill: you can add your skill ranks to the total of any conversation on the topic of that Lore. I would include "cultural" Lores on Etiquette (Courtesy) rolls under that umbrella, though I'd have to think about how to phrase it.

Reading through this thread one thought came to mind, one way to spot a fake is to be familiar with the genuine article. One way to call out a liar is to be well informed of the truth. Where in Rokugan sincerity holds as much sway as truth this maybe more difficult to perceive. My thought is this, that someone could use their lore skill in some way to detect a lie instead of just investigation.

Just a thought

Reading through this thread one thought came to mind, one way to spot a fake is to be familiar with the genuine article. One way to call out a liar is to be well informed of the truth. Where in Rokugan sincerity holds as much sway as truth this maybe more difficult to perceive. My thought is this, that someone could use their lore skill in some way to detect a lie instead of just investigation.

That's baked into the basic mechanics of my rules: you get modifiers to your rolls based on circumstances, which in this instance would include what you know. And that could come from a Lore skill, or simply from things you happen to have observed, since nobody has Lore: What I Saw Yesterday. :-)

Some other RPG player classics, expressed in L5R terms...

Lore: Stuff My Character Should Know That I Don't

Lore: Basic Setting Details I Couldn't Be Bothered to Read

Lore: Things That Ruin The Mystery Plot

Lore: Secret Stuff

(Sorry, it's been one of those days, and Lore: What I Saw Yesterday was exactly the laugh I needed.)

My bad, I will take my leave, and go do what I must. I am glad for you, that you can sort all this courtly grace into its place. Farewell.

My bad, I will take my leave, and go do what I must. I am glad for you, that you can sort all this courtly grace into its place. Farewell.

I didn't mean my reply as some kind of attack! I was just clarifying, since this is a separate thread from the one where I laid out my system (plus that was a while ago and people may not remember the details). I'm totally happy to get further suggestions.

No worries, I did not take it as an attack. I simply feel inadequate to give any good suggestions. Most of my Legend of the Five Rings experience comes from either the CCG, or the battlefield. I do have a question though; However it would probably be a question best asked on the other thread, or a new one. Thanks for your time, and hard work.

I'd certainly agree that "snap your fingers and make an Emerald Magistrate promotion appear" is beyond the scope of what you should be able to do, even at IR5. On the other hand, I think many of the lesser examples on the list - acquire a given item, get travel papers trouble-free, get an invitation to a party, whatever - are quite reasonable.

But I don't feel like those need a focused mechanic. Need travel papers? That's precisely what Politics (Bureaucracy) is for. Want into a party? Influence (Manipulation). Item needed? Commerce if you're buying it; Politics if you're requisitioning it; Influence if you're trying to persuade someone to give it to you. The TNs for these things are either set by an opposed roll or the same as the TNs for anything else, as measured by the chart in the core book: is this supposed to be easy or moderate or hard? Getting into a party is not one size fits all; it depends on the party and who you are in relation to the host.

The argument in favor (heh) of a favor table would be that it helps courtiers be better at these things than bushi are, just as kata help bushi be superior in combat. But I don't think the two things are equivalent. Kata focus on improving or simply changing your rolls and stats during a normal skirmish. The courtier equivalent (in my opinion) ought to similarly improve/change the numbers, not just skip right to the end of what those numbers are used for. Courtiers have a minor edge insofar as they're more likely to have invested in the relevant traits and skills; for a bigger edge, I'd rather focus on the process, rather than the result.

Makes sense. The thing is, there really isn't any guidance given for whether these basic sorts of social actions ought to be easy, moderate or hard. How hard should it be for a Crane to get travel papers across Lion territory circa 1155? Difficult, presumably, but is it as hard as scaling a cliff without rope, as hard as diving safely from a waterfall, or as hard as out-wrestling a troll? The book does not give any indication. How hard should it be for a random courtier at the daimyo's court to obtain an invitation to the daimyo's garden party? How much harder should it be to get an invitation to the Emperor's garden party? Once there's a baseline for that sort of thing, you can adjust the TN up and down as needed to reflect circumstances ("Well, you've given the guy an excellent reason why need to cross his province, -10 TN, but you did just kill a Lion in a duel for insulting your family, +5 TN, and even though the guy was totes guilty it was a relative of his, +10 TN, and your Clans are on the brink of war right now, +15 TN..." or whatever), but without a baseline it's a lot more arbitrary.

But remember that my take on Etiquette is not precisely the one from 4e. It is still *sort of* about "how you should act in person" -- but more specifically, it's about affecting perception of you as an individual, and how much other people like/dislike you based on your behavior (courteous or insulting, serene or uncontrolled). Which isn't quite as close to the Cadence thing as the old Etiquette would be.

I haven't made a decision one way or another. Just outlining why I don't think there's a clear-cut answer that meshes with the framework in my head.

Hmm, fair enough. I still think Etiquette fits the best, though - as you described it in your original writeup, it's the skill of " influencing how other people see you", whether by being nice, by being vicious in the socially-approved fashion, or by controlling the face that you show to the world (Composure). I think a cipher-type emphasis would fit in fine. And it's a much simpler solution than inventing a new skill for it or making Cadence an ability you have to pay XP for and can only use X times per day.

Right -- and that's how it works in the basic skill use as I originally outlined it, wherein you must respond either with an insult or a duel, or else lose Glory. What we're debating here is a finer point in the dynamics, i.e. a situation where simply responding isn't enough: the answering insult must clear a bar set by the instigator, or else it's as if you didn't say anything at all. (In fact, under my current rules draft, you can potentially wind up with even more egg on your face: if you fail to meet the Raises you were forced to call by a significant margin, you lose Glory for that, too. Ergo, this can be used to cow you into keeping your mouth shut, lest it turn out even worse for you.) *That's* the point where I think an additional trick can be relevant. It stops just being back-and-forth, and becomes a game where your opponent is forcing you to play by his own rules.

Ohhhhh, I see. I think we've been talking past each other a bit here. What I was thinking of was a mechanic whereby, as the insult exchange went on, the penalty for backing out increased (because you'd be taking the social weight of all the insults thrown back and forth up to that point). What you're talking about sounds a bit different - an effect that you apply to a single insult, that makes your opponent have to go to greater lengths to successfully respond? That does sound like a good concept for an Aji.

I should note, though, that as came up in the discussion about Sincerity and convincing people of things, I don't think making it purely Raise-dependent is a good idea, lest it turn into "Oh, your Void is lower than mine? Guess you lose then, 2badsosad." Void should matter, but it should never be "you must be at least this tall to compete in this contested roll."

Yeah, I think that one winds up duplicating the mastery ability. There could be an aji that specifically lets you add that to your Deceit rolls, though. Or I'm contemplating one that lets you roll Sincerity (Deceit) to detect lies, instead of relying on Investigation -- on the theory that a good liar should be able to spot other liars, even if they're oblivious to everything else.

I followed a similar thread, thinking about the Honor thing:

Honor’s Grace (requires Awareness 4, Etiquette 3): The nobility of your spirit shines through in your conduct. You may add your Honor Rank to the total of all Etiquette (Courtesy) and Etiquette (Composure) rolls.

Ooh, I like it! Much less overlap there. And it fits nicely with the Crane being both "the honourable courtly Clan" and the masters of charm and etiquette.

Oooh -- that one's interesting! I might tweak the requirements; once I have a good mass of these, I'm going to look through and figure out how best to balance them against one another. (I strongly suspect I'll include skill requirements, alongside Traits.) But I wouldn't give this one an Honor loss; in a sense, this is a specific aspect of the "my position is the honorable one!" thing we agreed shouldn't just be a Doji technique. You aren't necessarily lying or acting dishonorably. You're just framing your argument in terms of Bushido.

Oh, that's true. I was thinking of it more as a Littlefinger-esque "You wear your honour like a suit of armour, but all it does is slow you down", but that's certainly not the only use it could be put to. Maybe rename it to "Ties Strongers Than Steel" or something else a bit more neutral than "Chains", in that case?

A broader version of that is almost certainly going to be my R3 mastery ability for the Lore macro skill: you can add your skill ranks to the total of any conversation on the topic of that Lore. I would include "cultural" Lores on Etiquette (Courtesy) rolls under that umbrella, though I'd have to think about how to phrase it.

I like it! I wonder, though... just conversations? I can think of lots of areas where Lore skills could reasonably apply as small bonuses... Lore: Nature when tracking someone through the wilderness? Lore: History when creating art referencing a historical event? Lore: War when planning a battle?

Makes sense. The thing is, there really isn't any guidance given for whether these basic sorts of social actions ought to be easy, moderate or hard. How hard should it be for a Crane to get travel papers across Lion territory circa 1155? Difficult, presumably, but is it as hard as scaling a cliff without rope, as hard as diving safely from a waterfall, or as hard as out-wrestling a troll? The book does not give any indication. How hard should it be for a random courtier at the daimyo's court to obtain an invitation to the daimyo's garden party? How much harder should it be to get an invitation to the Emperor's garden party? Once there's a baseline for that sort of thing, you can adjust the TN up and down as needed to reflect circumstances ("Well, you've given the guy an excellent reason why need to cross his province, -10 TN, but you did just kill a Lion in a duel for insulting your family, +5 TN, and even though the guy was totes guilty it was a relative of his, +10 TN, and your Clans are on the brink of war right now, +15 TN..." or whatever), but without a baseline it's a lot more arbitrary.

As a GM, I tend to tailor these things less on an absolute scale and more on the scale of my plot and my PCs. Are those travel papers something the plot really needs, and so the roll is just barely more than a formality? Low TN. Is this a total hail mary? High TN, and unless the PCs have a really smooth talker or are willing to risk face-planting, they probably won't succeed. But that's not to say that a more in-depth discussion of TNs wouldn't be helpful.

Ohhhhh, I see. I think we've been talking past each other a bit here. What I was thinking of was a mechanic whereby, as the insult exchange went on, the penalty for backing out increased (because you'd be taking the social weight of all the insults thrown back and forth up to that point). What you're talking about sounds a bit different - an effect that you apply to a single insult, that makes your opponent have to go to greater lengths to successfully respond? That does sound like a good concept for an Aji.

What you're proposing sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I could really implement that without basically creating duel-equivalent mechanics -- it's something anybody with the skill can do, but the specifics of how it happens would need explication. On the other hand, hey: if I've made a sub-system for large-scale political maneuvering a la Mass Battle, no reason I can't make a sub-system for hostile conversations a la iaijutsu. :-) (Not right now, though. Got some schools I need to finish drafting.)

I should note, though, that as came up in the discussion about Sincerity and convincing people of things, I don't think making it purely Raise-dependent is a good idea, lest it turn into "Oh, your Void is lower than mine? Guess you lose then, 2badsosad." Void should matter, but it should never be "you must be at least this tall to compete in this contested roll."

As a specialized scenario you won't run into all the time, I don't actually have a problem with it. Basically it's what happens when somebody with a vicious rapier wit starts playing with a target who just isn't that inspired.

But I have an inkling that you and I view the nature and role of Raises a bit differently, such that we're not quite in agreement on how they should be used.

Oh, that's true. I was thinking of it more as a Littlefinger-esque "You wear your honour like a suit of armour, but all it does is slow you down", but that's certainly not the only use it could be put to. Maybe rename it to "Ties Strongers Than Steel" or something else a bit more neutral than "Chains", in that case?

I've got it in my draft as "The Weight of Honor."

I like it! I wonder, though... just conversations? I can think of lots of areas where Lore skills could reasonably apply as small bonuses... Lore: Nature when tracking someone through the wilderness? Lore: History when creating art referencing a historical event? Lore: War when planning a battle?

Heh. Well, two of your three examples are Lores I would never use, because I'm a fan of letting skills also double as knowledge of that skill (to avoid the proliferation of unnecessary Lores). For me, Lore: Nature is just Hunting rolled with Intelligence instead of Perception, and Lore: War is just Battle with Intelligence. I'd let a player buy the Lore if they *really* wanted their PC to only have theoretical rather than practical knowledge of a thing, but most of the time, I don't see the point.

Your art example is a good one, though. I might say "mental/social rolls" or something like that, just to leave it sufficiently broad.

Makes sense. The thing is, there really isn't any guidance given for whether these basic sorts of social actions ought to be easy, moderate or hard. How hard should it be for a Crane to get travel papers across Lion territory circa 1155? Difficult, presumably, but is it as hard as scaling a cliff without rope, as hard as diving safely from a waterfall, or as hard as out-wrestling a troll? The book does not give any indication. How hard should it be for a random courtier at the daimyo's court to obtain an invitation to the daimyo's garden party? How much harder should it be to get an invitation to the Emperor's garden party? Once there's a baseline for that sort of thing, you can adjust the TN up and down as needed to reflect circumstances ("Well, you've given the guy an excellent reason why need to cross his province, -10 TN, but you did just kill a Lion in a duel for insulting your family, +5 TN, and even though the guy was totes guilty it was a relative of his, +10 TN, and your Clans are on the brink of war right now, +15 TN..." or whatever), but without a baseline it's a lot more arbitrary.

As a GM, I tend to tailor these things less on an absolute scale and more on the scale of my plot and my PCs. Are those travel papers something the plot really needs, and so the roll is just barely more than a formality? Low TN. Is this a total hail mary? High TN, and unless the PCs have a really smooth talker or are willing to risk face-planting, they probably won't succeed. But that's not to say that a more in-depth discussion of TNs wouldn't be helpful.

Right, and for dealing with an individual case that works nicely, but I find that having to rely on that makes it hard to maintain consistency in the setting as a GM, or to get a handle on my character's place in the setting as a player. If I'm playing a bushi, I can look at the most common ATNs for people I'm likely to be fighting, figure out how likely I am to hit them and how much damage I deal, and thereby get a decent sense of how good a warrior my PC is. If I'm playing a courtier, then I can see that e.g. my PC rolls 10k5 to navigate the bureaucracy... so how good does that make him? Does he effortlessly complete all but the most difficult of tasks, or do routine challenges just happen to all have TNs that make them tricky prospects for him? Having a more defined set of TNs doesn't mean the GM can't tailor the challenge to the party and situation - you just tailor the circumstances instead. Really need those travel papers for the plot to progress? There's a very agreeable/bribeable/whatever magistrate in the area who can issue them, even if it would normally be very difficult. Total hail mary that the plot can do fine without? Maybe the magistrate has a personal grudge against the PCs, their Clan, whatever.

If you like, I could do some work on TNs and modifiers for common tasks myself, and post it up in the other thread.

What you're proposing sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I could really implement that without basically creating duel-equivalent mechanics -- it's something anybody with the skill can do, but the specifics of how it happens would need explication. On the other hand, hey: if I've made a sub-system for large-scale political maneuvering a la Mass Battle, no reason I can't make a sub-system for hostile conversations a la iaijutsu. :-) (Not right now, though. Got some schools I need to finish drafting.)

Heh. Well, it occurs to me that one fairly simple way to do it would be to say "the Glory loss increases by 1 point with every new Etiquette (Insult) roll." So Bayushi Bob taunts Kakita Kate, threatening one point of Glory long; she comes back at him a biting rejoinder that would threaten him with a 1-point loss of his own, but conceding now would also mean folding on his own insult, threatening him with a 2-point loss. He insults her again, and the ball is in her court threatening a 3-point loss, etc. Or perhaps the amount could increase by 1 point for every full exchange, such that Bob and Kate each face a 1-point loss the first time, then a 2-point loss, etc. It's a bit simplistic, it has the exchange escalating at a constant rate no matter how vituperative or restrained it is, but it works. Another method might be to have the losses for the exchange escalate only if someone calls Raises, and escalate by an amount equal to the Raises called, but that could get out of hand very easily.

As a specialized scenario you won't run into all the time, I don't actually have a problem with it. Basically it's what happens when somebody with a vicious rapier wit starts playing with a target who just isn't that inspired.

But I have an inkling that you and I view the nature and role of Raises a bit differently, such that we're not quite in agreement on how they should be used.

It does seem that way. I like it when Raises provide an advantage... I don't like it when the ability to call Raises is the only meaningful determinant of success or failure.I also think they shouldn't be the sole arbiter of degree of success - not all great successes are planned in advance, or require accepting a greater risk of failure.

I've got it in my draft as "The Weight of Honor."

I like it!

Heh. Well, two of your three examples are Lores I would never use, because I'm a fan of letting skills also double as knowledge of that skill (to avoid the proliferation of unnecessary Lores). For me, Lore: Nature is just Hunting rolled with Intelligence instead of Perception, and Lore: War is just Battle with Intelligence. I'd let a player buy the Lore if they *really* wanted their PC to only have theoretical rather than practical knowledge of a thing, but most of the time, I don't see the point.

Your art example is a good one, though. I might say "mental/social rolls" or something like that, just to leave it sufficiently broad.

That works... and both of those Lore replacements make sense. Although I note that if they cease to be Lores, they no longer have a Mastery Ability that lets them improve your social rolls, even if you happen to be rolling Etiquette to impress a keen naturalist or rolling Sincerity to convince a general that his battle plan is flawed

If you like, I could do some work on TNs and modifiers for common tasks myself, and post it up in the other thread.

Feel free!

Heh. Well, it occurs to me that one fairly simple way to do it would be to say "the Glory loss increases by 1 point with every new Etiquette (Insult) roll." So Bayushi Bob taunts Kakita Kate, threatening one point of Glory long; she comes back at him a biting rejoinder that would threaten him with a 1-point loss of his own, but conceding now would also mean folding on his own insult, threatening him with a 2-point loss. He insults her again, and the ball is in her court threatening a 3-point loss, etc. Or perhaps the amount could increase by 1 point for every full exchange, such that Bob and Kate each face a 1-point loss the first time, then a 2-point loss, etc. It's a bit simplistic, it has the exchange escalating at a constant rate no matter how vituperative or restrained it is, but it works. Another method might be to have the losses for the exchange escalate only if someone calls Raises, and escalate by an amount equal to the Raises called, but that could get out of hand very easily.

Right now the setup is that if you don't respond, you lose Glory based on the Raises called against you, but you aren't required to respond with the same skill; you just have to defend yourself. (And it doesn't accumulate: you only take the hit from the final pass.) A linear increase feels too simplistic for my taste -- I'm going to ponder whether this is worth turning into a duel-type-thing!

It does seem that way. I like it when Raises provide an advantage... I don't like it when the ability to call Raises is the only meaningful determinant of success or failure.I also think they shouldn't be the sole arbiter of degree of success - not all great successes are planned in advance, or require accepting a greater risk of failure.

I'm okay with Raises being the determinant of success or failure in limited circumstances (which is to say, mechanics only some characters will have access to, which they cannot use all the time). I would never propose something like this as a foundational mechanic.

As for Raises as the sole arbiter -- I agree with you there, and it's one of the things that bugs me about 4e, that it seems to have lost sight of what Raises were intended to mean. They should *only* come into play when there's a greater risk of failure. There is zero logic to the Toritaka Exorcist tech, where you can sense dangerous spirits, and know more about them if you call two Raises. So, what -- if you miss your Raises, then you fail to sense the spirit at all, even if you cleared the original TN? My old GM ran it so that you still sensed the spirit if you hit the original TN . . . but since every character starts with Void 2, that makes the tech mechanically indistinguishable from "if you roll 10 over the original TN, you know more." Ergo, I like to use scalar success for things like Investigation and Lore and so forth.

That works... and both of those Lore replacements make sense. Although I note that if they cease to be Lores, they no longer have a Mastery Ability that lets them improve your social rolls, even if you happen to be rolling Etiquette to impress a keen naturalist or rolling Sincerity to convince a general that his battle plan is flawed

That gets back to one of my core principles in my redesign, which is that GMs should allow adjustments based on circumstances. Given a choice between trying to nail down every permutation of when Skill A should improve your use of Skill B, and nailing down some representative examples while leaving the rest to discretion, I choose the latter. :-) Heck -- I might just have the player roll Hunting / Awareness to impress that naturalist!

I've been pondering the Cadence thing, and I've decided that I'm going to leave it as an aji -- for my purposes, anyway, which of course means that other people can treat it differently in their own games. But I figured I might as well explain my reasons.

1) If it's just a skill use instead of an aji, then there has to be a roll involved (unless I make it a mastery ability, which I'm not keen on doing). Not only does this raise the issue of TNs -- if it's too high, people might fail too often, but if it's too low, it rapidly becomes pointless to even bother rolling -- but it probably means you need two rolls, since being able to signal doesn't mean the person you're trying to signal will notice and/or understand you if they do. Ergo, they should have to roll as well, and this rapidly becomes annoying enough that I don't want to bother. Whereas if it's an aji, I can just say that if you know it then you can both do it and pick up other people's signals, with no rolling involved.

2) If it's an aji, then it's a specialized courtier ability rather than something anybody can do . . . and I think I like that. Very basic bits of body language wouldn't fall under this umbrella (you don't need a special ability to know that if somebody beckons you, they mean "come here," and if they shush you, they mean "be quiet"), but it makes sense to me that the more refined sorts of gestures one might make with a fan or hand positioning or whatever constitute a kind of "secret language" of courtiers, which bushi and shugenja don't learn. It's a way to strengthen the social realm as a distinct place where courtiers can outshine other school types, and I think that's an outcome I like.

The only major argument I can see against making it an aji is that you're limited in how many times a day you can use it, but there are workarounds for that: I'm not 100% positive I'm going to cap things that way in the first place, and even if I do, I could always note that Cadence of Allies doesn't count against that total (much like the Mantis ise zumi tattoo is active all the time, even when you activate another tattoo). So for my own purposes, I'm going to keep it this way.

Hello,

On the subtleties of "courtly" language, there is a very interesting fan-made, pun intended, called The Art of the Fan on Aldana Steel, a website dedicated to 7th Sea. The article explains how courtiers go about transmitting messages secretly using their fan, and giving examples. While not all of them can be applied to Rokugani courts, they are a sound basis for furthering courtly secrecy in L5R.