Yep, he wants to force his good taste on people. Nothing wrong with that.

If someone with good taste got into radio and just forced his good taste down others throats we could hear the likes of Edith Piaf, The Seekers, The Mamas & The Papas, Judy Collins, and other "If you don't like these musicians you're a bad person" tier musicians on the radio.

But nope, ******* Hotel California and Nickelback and Nicki Minaj it is. "Hey man, stop forcing your good taste on others, if you don't like it just don't play dude." "You just want the Phantom nerfed because you just want to play swarm."

Whoa whoa. Leave Nicki out of this! She's way more talented than most hip hop artists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56UQK7QpBw&t=1m4s

But really music taste isn't a good analogy for adherence to rules. Music diversity exists because taste in music is equally diverse. The same reason why cars come in 20 colour options.

Rules, on the other hand, exist to be followed. Not following rules defeats the sole purpose of that ruleset in the first place.

It might seem like you're doing new players a favour when you tell them they can pre-measure, but if that turns into a habit they're in for a rude awakening at their first tournament.

It might seem like you're doing new players a favour when you tell them they can pre-measure, but if that turns into a habit they're in for a rude awakening at their first tournament.

There is a point where it can be a good teaching tool. But like you say it's a bad habit to form, and can hurt your ability to play the game if it's removed.

Judging distance is a skill, and the better you are at it, the better you play. Paul H. for example is great at judging distance and as such he can make moves that give him an advantage.

But the key thing is, that for games to be both fun and competitive, everyone has to play by the same rules, and while a group can come up with house rules, those may very well bite them in the rear if they play somewhere else. So it is simply easiest for everyone to follow the rules as written.

It might seem like you're doing new players a favour when you tell them they can pre-measure, but if that turns into a habit they're in for a rude awakening at their first tournament.

Judging distance is a skill, and the better you are at it, the better you play. Paul H. for example is great at judging distance and as such he can make moves that give him an advantage.

That's a good example. Pre-measuring will only hinder your development towards Heaver-like precision! Best way to learn is through mistakes, I say.

Also, I find pre-measuring takes some excitement out of the game. Finding out that a Phantom doesn't have a shot after all and can't re-cloak is a glorious feeling.

True Story:

I was playing a guy who was measuring during movement and checking arcs to see whether he wanted to barrel roll or not.

I told him that wasn't allowed during activation. He said "what difference does it make if you can measure during the combat phase"

My answer "Because it's cheating and it bothers me."

He stopped, paused, and said, you know if you think that's cheating, I don't think we have much chance at playing together.

I packed up my stuff and I left (then I took 6 months off the game, and from what I've seen, he is not a player in the community anymore).

Incidentally, I found out later he has a nickname "Cheater Tim"

Cheating is cheating. Explain why a particular 'cheat' (and I use the term whether it is unintentional or intentional - which is important) is advantageous and why it's not allowed.

For new players, I let it go once or twice but afterward I start enforcing actively ("wait, you can't do that during this phase" or "hey, now that you placed your barrel roll template down, you're committed to the barrel roll on that side). That works a lot better than calling someone a cheater, I've realized...

Things I was wrong about personally for 6 months:

I thought secondary weapons were immune from obstruction penalties.

I placed turn-templates outside the pegs of the ship to move them without having to move ships in the way. The problem with that is that when you put a curved template outside the pegs, you are changing the movement radius (and performing, thusly, turns that aren't even in the game).

These were things I was 'cheating' on and was completely innocent of intent to break rules.

He said "what difference does it make if you can measure during the combat phase"

My answer "Because it's cheating and it bothers me."

There is more to it than just that though.

The whole game is based on the idea of making decisions based on imperfect information. Having to not only outthink the other guy but outguess him as well.

Chess for example has perfect information. Both players know exactly what options both players have, there's nothing hidden or unknowable. X-Wing however has those things as core parts of what makes the game fun.

The reason you can't measure or check arcs in the activation phase, is because you're not suppose to know if that BR will get you out of arc or not. You're supposed to judge based imperfect information.

His excuse is a complete logical disconnect, because measuring in the combat phase means you're past the point where most ships can do anything with the information it has. There's a few exceptions, but those ships actually pay for that, like Fel.

Maybe the guy was simply trying to cheat. But his answer is really nonsense, he's trying to compare apples to oranges and use that as an excuse to do something that's against the rules.

Against new players, I usually say stuff like:

"Go ahead and pre-measure here, but just so you know you can't do that until Activation in the future." Or as they're picking up the template to boost/BR... "Okay, just so you know - once you put that down, you're committed to making that direction."

I find anticipating potential arguments and preventing them before they happen is best. Most new players (there are certainly exceptions) are okay with X-wing's ruleset.

The most common argument I've seen emerge is when new players place a boost/BR template down, then the other player says they can't take it back. We all know how critical those maneuver modifications are, so it's best to jump in before that can happen. The firing arc pre-measure I can let slide because it's usually less important and the information benefits both sides.

I'll use honey! Honest I will! Lol. I just get little chuffed when I get accused of being a jerk by randoms. I'm sure it wasn't meant to sound that way, just like how I didn't mean to come off as actually being a jackbooted rules lawyer.

Anyhoo. Rules issues before have been solved easily. We just look in the TFA book when we need to.

I guess all it really comes down to is this; I feel like people would think I'm a jerk for enforcing rules in a game and I'm wondering how I can bring it up the next time someone paces out a turn with their hand. Long story short I feel like a jerk for expecting something completely mundane and that in and of itself is the real issue. This thread just highlighted that for me. Its not a question of whether or not you should play by the rules, that answer is obvious, but rather why is the expectation for lenience there in the first place?

Why do people expect to be given friendly consideration? Is it that or what? Like I'm seeing this big gap in the way we think nowadays. Maybe it's player respawn syndrome or something? Too many free lives and 1-ups? We just expect second chances and freebies now and to expect them of other people?

****, I know its just a game, but its more than that! Its a social interaction, and if you wanted to you could get really scientific about the simple act of gaming. I dunno... I just thought that the norm was to play by the rules. It is just a game after all, its not like in life where sometimes you have to do things you don't like an maybe break some rules.

So why is it so hard to just say "hey, I forgot that action, its okay. I'll remember next time"?

I just get little chuffed when I get accused of being a jerk by randoms.

Understandable.

Its not a question of whether or not you should play by the rules, that answer is obvious, but rather why is the expectation for lenience there in the first place?

I think part of it is some people have been burned by other games, like playing 40k and having someone bring up a rule from a White Dwarf that was printed 4 years ago and use that to win the game.

That and more often people hearing stories like that and expecting people to actually behave like that. So they become preemptive to stop something that isn't very likely to happen in the first place

That and some people just seem to go up in flames when you expect them to play by the rules. Don't know why but there's just some people like that. In part I think it goes back to the above, and they're being preemptive in avoiding someone taking advantage of them.

I just thought that the norm was to play by the rules.

It is really. Most people will play by the rules, if they know them. Don't let a few posts here make you think the X-Wing community throws the rules out, we don't. Most people I've run into play pretty strictly RAW.

Because doing so means no matter where you go, you can count on everyone playing the same game.

The other thing though is, if you're just playing for fun, and the game means nothing other than that game. The score doesn't factor into anything else. Then it's not a huge leap to change the rules in a way that would seem to make the game more enjoyable.

But the problem is, in the long run they don't. You'll play against other people who play differently or in some cases the rules really are best for the game, like not being able to check the arc before barrel rolling.

Against new players, I usually say stuff like:

"Go ahead and pre-measure here, but just so you know you can't do that until Activation in the future." Or as they're picking up the template to boost/BR... "Okay, just so you know - once you put that down, you're committed to making that direction."

I find anticipating potential arguments and preventing them before they happen is best. Most new players (there are certainly exceptions) are okay with X-wing's ruleset.

The most common argument I've seen emerge is when new players place a boost/BR template down, then the other player says they can't take it back. We all know how critical those maneuver modifications are, so it's best to jump in before that can happen. The firing arc pre-measure I can let slide because it's usually less important and the information benefits both sides.

I guess all it really comes down to is this; I feel like people would think I'm a jerk for enforcing rules in a game and I'm wondering how I can bring it up the next time someone paces out a turn with their hand. Long story short I feel like a jerk for expecting something completely mundane and that in and of itself is the real issue. This thread just highlighted that for me. Its not a question of whether or not you should play by the rules, that answer is obvious, but rather why is the expectation for lenience there in the first place?

Again, I'd recommend the middle ground approach (which is really way closer to your side).

Just tell them you'll let it slide this time. That implies you won't let it slide next time which will either (A) improve their awareness and avoid this situation altogether in the future or (B) give you due cause to not let it slide if it happens again even in future games.

People don't like losing, and losing due to carelessness is even worse. I've played hundreds of games and I'll admit that in the rare situation that I forget a focus token, I'll still ask my opponent if he/she is okay with me adding it. If they say no, that's perfectly fine and understandable. Move on and learn from my mistake. If they say yes, then I consider that an act of good will which I absolutely would return if they make a mistake in either that game or future ones.

I apply that philosophy when I'm the other side too. I'll let it slide if it was an obvious focus action that was forgotten. Personally, I'd rather not win off of someone else's carelessness.

I mean part of it is the setting too. At a local tournament, I think we can all afford to be friendly and forgiving. But at Regionals and Nationals (we've had an epic thread on this before), I'm much more ruthless because the stakes, standards, and expectations are all heightened.

It should also be noted that X-Wings' rules on premeasuring are pretty forgiving as they are (now). If you can't barrel roll to the left, you can also choose to focus, for example. And choosing a weapon and target also allows for many adjustments.

I do not really care how 2 people play a game.

But, before they play you remind them you play the rules as written and let them decide if they want to play that way or not.

Be gracious when telling them or else you might be playing the game solo.

Honestly not many people were calling you a jerk, Darkcloak. I should clarify that in my other post I was basically just saying to ignore ParaGoomba's advice because it seemed like he was suggesting a needlessly hostile way of dealing with your players. I'm with you on fixing their play, and I know how frustrating it can be to be the only guy even trying to follow the rules, I just think that starting off by rewarding them will give them incentive to try playing properly.

A lot of people are advising that you double down and be firm but that will just reinforce the idea that you're a rules Nazi to these other players. I used to be similar to those guys (I was terrible for taking backs moves in particular), and attending Friday Night Magic was what fixed that. Players there were not willing to let the game descend into a storm of reversed decisions and confusing house rules, and I found that once I had the basics down it was more fun to play correctly than to deal with the complications caused by changing a decision you made two turns ago.

Diplomatically explaining why not knowing exactly where you'll end up or if you have a shot is more fun will go a lot farther than all this NEVER COMPROMISE, NEVER FORGIVE nonsense that some people are encouraging you to try.

So a lot of new people picking up the game lately. In no small part thanks to X-Wing Night! However. Seems like people are not clicking on some basic rules and its starting to bother me because the term "house rule" is starting to rear its ugly head.

How do I get people playing the game properly? I see a lot of hand measuring, checking dials during activation, the range ruler coming out before combat, and other things. And not just during my games either, just yesterday I overheard another player tell another that "if pre-measuring isn't allowed then the shop should house rule it so that it is because space ships have sensors...".

Um... No. This game is too easy to learn to start house ruling it!

But how do I whip all these new players into shape without seeming like a jerk? Actually the jerk status isn't such a bother, I'd just like everyone to follow the rules.

So you feel everyone should play the game in the manner you feel is correct? And not just play to the letter at tournaments, you feel even casual "X wing night" games should be like a tournament? That's So "fly casual" of you, I bet everyone thinks just like you, or more likely they don't.

If people want to house rule the game and those they play it with agree it's not your position to tell them it's wrong. It doesn't matter if you think the game is great as written or how simple it is, others may not feel that way and their opinion is just as valid as yours.

If you've been pressuring people to play the way you want you are a jerk, no reason to worry about how you come off now. The fact you even stated you don't care if they think you're a jerk if you can get them to do as you wish says terms worse than jerk are more appropriate.

Let the people play as they wish and house rule as they wish as long as the other players aren't taking issue since the individual players are the only ones that can make any judgement on the matter. If you don't like to play people who don't play like you do then just don't play them, just like they have the option to not play you. If you push people to get your preferred play style you will destroy the group and chase off people that might play later.

Mark my words, proceed at your own peril!

Yep, he wants to force his good taste on people. Nothing wrong with that.

If someone with good taste got into radio and just forced his good taste down others throats we could hear the likes of Edith Piaf, The Seekers, The Mamas & The Papas, Judy Collins, and other "If you don't like these musicians you're a bad person" tier musicians on the radio.

But nope, ******* Hotel California and Nickelback and Nicki Minaj it is. "Hey man, stop forcing your good taste on others, if you don't like it just don't play dude." "You just want the Phantom nerfed because you just want to play swarm."

Dude..... really? Friends don't let friends nickleback!

that "but... but... my spaceship has sensors" argument re:Illegal_Measurements is cute. It doesn't take into account that this game is moving at 1,000 miles per hour, if not faster. And Measurement restrictions reflect this "pace."

In tournaments I wanna play strictly... but more than often my opponent will forget actions for half his/her squad until I'm throwing down a Focus Token and they will say. "Oh! These ships are focusing too"

I used to let it slide because maybe my opponent will let ME slide later... but that doesn't happen. So at my next tournament on Saturday I plan on being VERY vigilant about rules.

I lost my last store competition because we had so many missed opportunities and do-overs I allowed the other dude that it screwed me at the end. It was the final round and Time was called- so we had plenty of time to finish the game-round without rushing- but this dude was rushing and frantically trying to get in shots before the Round time ended, so he kept the momentum going...My newbie opponent quickly insisted on a hand shake and a 'good game'. I realized my blinded pilot card was supposed to be flipped over. I even informed my opponent and gave him a lil guilt trip. I would have had a Range1 shot with TL, Focus, Predator and Emperor on his Hull1 Z95- most likely I would have blown it up.... sorry to ramble on but if I was allowed to shoot, I would've won by 15 points- modified win.

Now I know to be strict and take 3 seconds to breathe before conceding defeat, but only in Organized Play.

House rules are a cancer. It breeds players who then go out to a tournament and throw a fit because 'Thats not how we play it at home!' Hell, I know some players at my FLGS who loved the phrase "we don't play by tournament rules" when they got caught out by a combo or move they didn't expect. They'd want you to defer to their incorrect interpetation so they didn't get steam rolled.

New players are fine. They make mistakes. Whatever. You teach them and move on. Its the people who refuse to learn the rules that are the real problem.

News update. A tournament is in the planning phase so I'm super excited. Rules violations won't be a problem because it will be a lot of fun. I am going to give up playing in order to judge the event. So... Wish me luck? Or maybe wish for mercy... Mercy for the rules violators! Mwuhahahaha!