thrusters were necessary prior to TLT with PWTs absolutely infesting the meta

hell, they single-handedly made interceptors viable years after someone had the lack of vision to release a fragile arc-dodger alongside a mindless game mechanic that couldn't ever be dodged

it's also just grand at range 3, and I wouldn't take even Redline without it (great against swarms)

I'm curious ficklegreendice, how would you have designed the Falcon differently to make it, according to you, not so "dumb"? Or would you just not have included it, one of the most iconic ship in the Star Wars universe, at all? Or, because there's also the Outrider and Decimator, and soon the Punishing One, maybe it's just a general "no turrets in X-Wing" rule that would have been acceptable to you?

Also, are you OK with TLTs?... that can be included on 4 Y-Wings (32 total health), so 3 dice rolled 8 times for a potential of 8 damages per turn. Granted, there's a range restriction, but still...

you'd have to put some actual decision-making into PWTs to make them not idiotic, such as designing four distinct arcs ala Armada and having to decide pre-activation which arc the turret was facing

or make the turret **** and the primary arc stronger, anything really other than the lazy design they went with

and yes, TLTs are fine. It has a range 1 deadzone on low PS ships with "eh" dials and no re-positioning capabilities considering they're low PS, small ships upon which EU would be wasted. TLTs require far more forethought than fat PWTs

I'm curious ficklegreendice, how would you have designed the Falcon differently to make it, according to you, not so "dumb"? Or would you just not have included it, one of the most iconic ship in the Star Wars universe, at all? Or, because there's also the Outrider and Decimator, and soon the Punishing One, maybe it's just a general "no turrets in X-Wing" rule that would have been acceptable to you?

Also, are you OK with TLTs?... that can be included on 4 Y-Wings (32 total health), so 3 dice rolled 8 times for a potential of 8 damages per turn. Granted, there's a range restriction, but still...

The problem a lot of people have with PWTs is that they can never be outmanouvered. Whenever you can shoot it, it shoots back. That puts a lot of stress on to your green dice, which are a general weak point in the games design. Other ways to implement turrets? I have no idea, but the one we have isn't the best. Which is a shame, because secondary turrets are all good design.

The Engine Upgrade and Autothrusters comparison is pretty much wasted. The ONLY ship that could take both happens to be the Interceptor which EU is completely wasted on as it already has a native boost. Basically, if a ship can take Autothrusters it will never be taking Engine Upgrade.

Now there was something that allowed more ships to pick up two modifications then you might see a rise in the EU's value as it then enables AT to be taken.

I stand by EU being the best single mod slot card. AT are awesome and my boost ships don't leave home without them.

I suppose 'best' is bad wording on my part as there is no actual best but if I could hypothetically only have 1 single mod card in my collection and no other, I'd choose engine as it works on such a broad selection of ships.

you'd have to put some actual decision-making into PWTs to make them not idiotic, such as designing four distinct arcs ala Armada and having to decide pre-activation which arc the turret was facing

or make the turret **** and the primary arc stronger, anything really other than the lazy design they went with

and yes, TLTs are fine. It has a range 1 deadzone on low PS ships with "eh" dials and no re-positioning capabilities considering they're low PS, small ships upon which EU would be wasted. TLTs require far more forethought than fat PWTs

Your first suggestion works from a game rules standpoint, but makes little sense from the background. While it may take some time for the turret weapons on a capital ship to change their fire arc, the quad laser cannons on the falcon change arc QUICKLY. We can see in the first movie that Han and Luke were actually reacting to the movement of the Tie fighters when trying to draw a bead on them. Even those quick little ships at close range couldn't dodge the arcs of those turrets for long.

As for your second suggestion, the Falcon's weapons are the 2 AG-2G quad laser cannons, a concealed surface defense blaster cannon, landing jets modified as anti-personnel weapons, and 2 concussion missile tubes (Source: Wookiepedia). The turreted quads ARE the Falcon's primary weapons. It has nothing else to act as a more powerful primary weapon. So again, that makes no sense from a background standpoint.

Personally I think EU on large ships is dumb. Not because I don't think large ships couldn't have that sort of upgrade from a background standpoint, but because it gives them a much bigger move swing than small ships due to the way the movement rules work. So from a mechanics standpoint I don't think it works very well. Maybe a boost for a large ship should be a 2 Straight or 2 Soft placed at the end of the maneuver template for the maneuver chosen (so don't put the large ship down at the end of the initial move unless it can't make a boost). That would cover about the same distance as a small ship boost I think.

As for TLTs...they are damned nasty. At least they're not cheap.

gameplay > fluff

always

the Falcon might have 2 whateverthehell who cares cannons, but it has one primary 3 red-die attack; same as the majority of other ships in the game even though the B-wing is just bristling with firepower

fluff does not directly figure with the rules implementations of the game and should only be followed where it is appropriate

on the other hand, the perfect error-free and decision-free PWT that can't ever be dodged also doesn't follow the fluff as those Ties were going way too fast for Luke/Han to follow for the majority of the fight. The PWTs in X-wing are some perfect, laser-sighted automated bull that can fire at any target of their choosing on a whim without the slightest need for foresight or planning

not even getting into the issue that the ANH Falcon was outrun by Tie Fighters and had them buzzing around it for a while, while ROTJ Falcon seemed to be moving at the same speed, and yet in X-wing the Falcon just leaves them in the dust

gameplay > fluff

always

the Falcon might have 2 whateverthehell who cares cannons, but it has one primary 3 red-die attack; same as the majority of other ships in the game even though the B-wing is just bristling with firepower

fluff does not directly figure with the rules implementations of the game and should only be followed where it is appropriate

on the other hand, the perfect error-free and decision-free PWT that can't ever be dodged also doesn't follow the fluff as those Ties were going way too fast for Luke/Han to follow for the majority of the fight. The PWTs in X-wing are some perfect, laser-sighted automated bull that can fire at any target of their choosing on a whim without the slightest need for foresight or planning

The primary 3 red-die attack still represents those cannons however. 3 red attack dice represent some pretty significant attacks. My point was that your suggestion that a ship like the Falcon having a stronger primary attack within an arc isn't just "a little fudgy"...it actually flies in the face of the background material. There is no forward weapon on the Falcon to represent that attack. The turrets are it's primary weapon.

The dodging represents the ties making their 3 green die rolls. You've never dodged a shot from a Falcon with a Tie fighter in X-Wing? The current mechanics already cover that.

"Fluff" is a poorly considered term IMO. Without the background material, there would be little to set this game apart from a number of other miniature ship battle games that have come and gone through the years. While I think the GD team does a bang-up job (just compare this game to Star Trek Attack Wing, which has the same basic rules engine but is far inferior from a balance standpoint), I don't think the game would have gained much traction without the emphasis on "fluff". I know I sure wouldn't be playing it.

I should add that I get that you don't like PWTs. I think they have heavily influenced the meta (particularly with all the upgrades these ships can typically be loaded with to make them that much better). I just think walking the line between background and game balance isn't as simple as you are making it out to be. It's quite possible there was a better way to design these ships that is mindful of both important elements of the game (balance and background), but even in hindsight I struggle to see it. I don't like your suggested changes better than the current implementation.

more Star Wars themed games have come and gone than miniature ship battle games

if x-wing miniatures wasn't such a robust system, it would've been the flash in the pan that the designers had foreseen and wouldn't have been nearly as popular as it is now

and no, agility doesn't represent **** other than dumb luck. The only real dodging comes from manuevering, and PWTs utterly ignore that. If green dice are meant to represent skillful manuevering, they fail miserably

only secondary weapon turrets, and the Outrider HLC by extension, get it right

Thanks a lot guys. This all leaves me with one more question. I have now decided, begrudgingly, that I will probably need the falcon. However, it doesn't fit with the rest of my purchases. I am getting a YT 2400. Is it worth it to switch the Outrider for the Falcon?

Get the Engine and put that plus advanced sensors on a shuttle for the best 28 points in the game. 10 hits 3 attack and can turn surprisingly fast.

I don't think I've used the boost card once. I love using boost on ships that have it, but I've never felt the need to add it to other ships, but that's just my play style.

more Star Wars themed games have come and gone than miniature ship battle games

if x-wing miniatures wasn't such a robust system, it would've been the flash in the pan that the designers had foreseen and wouldn't have been nearly as popular as it is now

and no, agility doesn't represent **** other than dumb luck. The only real dodging comes from manuevering, and PWTs utterly ignore that. If green dice are meant to represent skillful manuevering, they fail miserably

only secondary weapon turrets, and the Outrider HLC by extension, get it right

Okay, fair enough. We fundamentally disagree.

I echo the sentiment of many in the thread that Engine Upgrade is not always a great choice. On high-pilot skill pilots, it's hard to argue with its effectiveness. But at middle to low pilot skill, you're better off taking a Focus since you don't really know where the opponent will end up. I think it's too easy to get swept up in the excitement of boosting that people forget about fundamental defenses.

I suppose that doesn't make Engine Upgrade less powerful, but it's a card you have to use judiciously.

Cards that grant Boost/Barrel Roll will always be powerful. Hell, I'm getting back into using Expert Handling. Used it on a HWK today. Hilarious.

I think if there was more space the interceptor would have totally passed by the falcon to get the heck outta there.

Probably gave the falcon the finger as the fire engulfed him.

EU is a good upgrade, it allows stiffer ships a bit more latitude of movement. With higher PS the more you gain from it.

I always find it funny when people say they can't outmaneuver a PWT, always shows the posters skill level in easy to read format. Also Sith how have you missed this guy posting about "boost wing" for the last 2 weeks? He uses it when ever he can. Makes me laugh every time. Though I do have a feeling it will get old sooner or later.

not even getting into the issue that the ANH Falcon was outrun by Tie Fighters and had them buzzing around it for a while, while ROTJ Falcon seemed to be moving at the same speed, and yet in X-wing the Falcon just leaves them in the dust

In Return of the Jedi, the Falcon was faster than an Interceptor in the Death Star tunnel (As seen in how it outpaced the explosion the Interceptor got caught in). In Empire Strikes Back it outmaneuvered TIE Fighters in an asteroid belt (Which in X-Wing would have given them the advantage with barrel roll and a small base).

The Falcon absolutely is fast as or faster than fighters.

it was Heaver Falcon. No asteroids scare him

or was it Millenium Heaver?

Millenium Phalcon?

Can we drop Autothrusters and the design of 360 firing arcs as irrelevant to the topic at hand?

What I'm curious about is that no-one has mentioned the Decimator or Firespray in relation to EU - two ships that I feel certainly benefit from it, in addition to it being mandatory on any shuttle you ever fly, ever, and expect to shoot more than twice per game.

Firesprays like it because it lets them green maneuver and still turn almost around, and opens up a lot more options not just for shots in the front arc, but in the rear arc as well. Scum Boba in particular loves being able to boost into Range 1 of as many ships as possible. Kath is also much more reliably able to get ships into her rear arc at R1 for that 5 dice goodness.

On the Deci, Oicunn likes being able to swing around faster to joust (and bump) again, while the others benefit from the survivability that an arc-dodging boost provides on big ships, as not being shot in the first place is the Deci's only real defence against attacks.

If I'm taking a Large Ship that isn't an IG-2000, I need a *really* good reason to leave EU at home.

The Palpmobile tends not use Engine Upgrade. And really, I think how important Engine Upgrade is tends to follow what your play style.

Thanks a lot guys. This all leaves me with one more question. I have now decided, begrudgingly, that I will probably need the falcon. However, it doesn't fit with the rest of my purchases. I am getting a YT 2400. Is it worth it to switch the Outrider for the Falcon?

If the Falcon really doesn't appeal you can always look to pick up just the EU card from the likes of eBay resellers. Outrider loves EU in Super Dash mode btw. I don't own one but the toughest 2400's I've face have had EU and gives Dash amazing repositioning combined with BR.

If you really prefer the 2400 to the 1300 stick with that and either use builds that don't rely on engine or like I say, look to pick up the card by itself perhaps. As much as I love EU, I wouldn't buy the Falcon over a ship I actually want just because of it.

The Palpmobile tends not use Engine Upgrade. And really, I think how important Engine Upgrade is tends to follow what your play style.

Because people don't expect it to shoot more than twice. It's just there to bait people into going after it while they get their tail chewed off by Fel/Vader/Jax.

Thanks a lot guys. This all leaves me with one more question. I have now decided, begrudgingly, that I will probably need the falcon. However, it doesn't fit with the rest of my purchases. I am getting a YT 2400. Is it worth it to switch the Outrider for the Falcon?

If the Falcon really doesn't appeal you can always look to pick up just the EU card from the likes of eBay resellers. Outrider loves EU in Super Dash mode btw. I don't own one but the toughest 2400's I've face have had EU and gives Dash amazing repositioning combined with BR.

If you really prefer the 2400 to the 1300 stick with that and either use builds that don't rely on engine or like I say, look to pick up the card by itself perhaps. As much as I love EU, I wouldn't buy the Falcon over a ship I actually want just because of it.

Thanks! The main reason that I haven't picked up EU from Ebay is that it costs upwards of $8, so its almost worth it to pay the extra $10 to get veteran instincts plus another EU. I think I found a way to fit them both in the budget though.