On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 0:11 PM, DanteFaustus said:

So my question to all folks... Does anyone have a rule set or document with stats and mechanics for either Assassins or Sisters of Battle out there? I know that there are lore and fluff issues but I am looking for something like the SoB beta Acts of Faith from above, but finished. I have a hard time creating my own that have balance since I have not had enough experience with all the systems to make stuff work. Any help all? Thanks!

Dark Heresy Ascension and Blood of Martyrs with the bolt-on for Palatines (released as a free .pdf rather than in print) at ascension level will do for battle sisters and (vindicere) assassins.

It makes a Palatine (a sort of sub-canoness a rather interesting counterpoint to a normal space marine:

• You don't get the same insane unnatural stats BUT you can acquire a rather rare item called the mantle of ophelia (using the influence score you have and the marines don't) which gives you unnatural toughness x2
  • This also lets you get an aspirate cloak (turning your power armour into essentially artificer plate and any other high rarity items (within reason) like a rosarius.
• Your stats pretty much stack up. Sororitas powered armour gives you +5 BS, too, when wearing the helm.
• Your starting weapons aren't astartes-calibre (D10+9) but 'normal' weapons (D10+5). They are best craftsmanship, though, so they never jam, and they're still powerful enough to make mincemeat out of horde-level adversaries.
  • You can requisition a godwyn-deaz storm bolter straight out the bat for even more dude-slaughtering
• No squad mode, but acts of faith give you a limited pool of abilities which can equal or even top squad modes
• Some rather nice hatred-based talents
  • If you snag the 'celestian' advanced career on the way up you count as having hatred (everyone) with an extra +10 WS against people you specifically hate even more .
  • One of the transition packages gives you auto-confirming righteous fury against anyone you hate (essentially giving you deathwatch training but not limited to xenos)
  • You can also get a talent giving you a +BS bonus for hatred as well as a +WS bonus.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:55 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Palatines (released as a free .pdf rather than in print) at ascension level will do for battle sisters and (vindicere) assassins.

Thanks where can I find this PDF?

On 2/3/2017 at 2:57 AM, pearldrum1 said:

If you wanted to commit some beautiful heresy, I got you covered.

http://rpng.freeforums.org/daughters-of-death-female-astartes-chapter-deathwatch-t406.html

Nice work. Care if I copy and paste this into a doc and ad it to my homebrew trove if I credit you? How would you like your credit to read if you okay this?

15 minutes ago, DanteFaustus said:

Thanks where can I find this PDF?

FFG have removed free files from their site, but I think it wouldn't be copyright violation if I share it with you. I'll upload file to google drive from home, in a few hours.

Actually it's still on the site: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/4b/d5/4bd5f9f0-4fa3-470c-b62d-8f0992ffea96/heresy-begets-retribution-hi-res.pdf

On 1/15/2018 at 5:07 AM, DanteFaustus said:

Nice work. Care if I copy and paste this into a doc and ad it to my homebrew trove if I credit you? How would you like your credit to read if you okay this?

Feel free, Dante! I would be honored.

Anyway is fine. How about a gratuitous self promotion for the play-by-post forum I run (we have since moved from that original forum/link)?

http://playbypostgaming.forumotion.com/

Here is the latest link, though I don't believe anything mechanical has changed: http://playbypostgaming.forumotion.com/t13-daughters-of-death-deathwatch-custom-female-chapter

I hope you get a lot of mileage out of it!

We've been looking at a Deathwatch campaign next, and at least one player has expressed an interest in playing an 'attached' throne agent.

As a result I've been having a thorough re-read of the assorted sourcebooks for Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and this is probably the least thread necromancy place to share the thoughts or comments:

• References
  • If you want to drop throne agents (high level Dark Heresy PCs) in a Deathwatch Kill-Team, you will need or want the following:
    • Dark Heresy Ascension (for Throne Agents)
    • Rites Of Battle Joint Operations chapter - explains how to cross-over the mechanics
    • Heed The Higher Call .pdf linked above (and Heresy Begets Retribution if wanting to play a Sororitas character)
    • The Tome Of Blood - not vital, but this contains rules for hordes fighting a mix of space marine and non-space-marine characters. It was actually not all that needed for Black Crusade (where astartes aren't as tough as their Ddeathwatch analogues due to unnatural toughness +4 instead of x2, and non-marines can easily rack up unnatural characteristics themselves from possession, gifts, etc) but it's worth looking at for Deathwatch to see if you're bothered about including it.
• Is it a good idea?
  • Don't drop more than one throne agent (or maybe two in a really large group). Any more than that and a more sensible idea is a Kill-marine attached to an Inquisitorial Cadre rather than the other way around, and that's an even more awkward game to play.
  • It can work, well and effectively. A well equipped, well-handled throne agent is no slouch - even in a battlefield situation - and can often show up the astartes catastrophically in their fields of competency.
  • What you cannot do as a throne agent is stand in a line next to the astartes at medium range, firing semi-auto bursts from basic weapons at stuff until it falls over. If that's the sum total of tactics your party tries, then the throne agent will feel massively underpowered.
• What house rules/canon should you consider?
  • Command structure
    • If you're attaching a throne agent to a kill-team, you need to understand why they're there. Space marines don't wander around with unaugmented soldiers for no reason.
    • Part of this is the relationship in your universe between the Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos.
    • Since the Deathwatch RPG and the Deathwatch codex came out, the 'chamber militant' concept (as in "Do What The Ordo Xenos Tells You To And Stop Asking Questions") has been heavily played down (presumably because Deathwatch writers liked the 'answerable to no-one' idea).
    • I wouldn't necessarily insist that an attached throne agent is automatically in command of a deathwatch team, but - especially if it's an Inquisitor - the assignment has presumably been done with some degree of authority. At the very least some sort of 'shared authority' ("you're in command for military actions, brother-sergeant, but this is my mission" or similar) is likely. Regardless, figure out as the GM (or as a group) how this is going to work first, and you should avoid arguments in game (or, at least, out-of-character arguments!)
  • Missions
    • You should probably think carefully about the sort of mission the kill-team is likely to be sent on
    • The presence of a throne agent is a good argument for adding (limited) investigation/intrigue bits to a mission, or a larger element of 'take command of this battlefront' rather than just 'go to co-ordinates X4576, Y4875 and murder everyone within bolter range'
    • At the same time, try to avoid turning it into a game of Dark Heresy. Do not derail the deathwatch campaign that the majority of your players (presumably) want to play in favour of one player - but try and create space for them to shine too (after all, Deathwatch are special ops, so they should be expecting to be asked to do this sort of stuff occasionally).
  • Hordes
    • As noted, the black crusade humans-versus-hordes rules are worth a look. They're probably more important for the 'squishier' ascended archetypes, but those should in turn probably not be your first choice for a throne agent in a Deathwatch group.
  • Psykers.
    • Most of the core rules for Deathwatch and Dark Heresy are perfectly compatible. Psychic powers use a fundamentally different mechanic.
    • Using Dark Heresy-style psychic powers is explained in a box-out.
    • You don't have to avoid psykers in their entirety, but I would strongly recommend not having both a psychic throne agent and a librarian in the party because the divergence in rules feels bizzare.
    • I would strongly, strongly recommend leaving the primaris psyker ascension career and imperial psyker basic career out of it. The Dark Heresy psychic mechanics are not suited for someone with that level of power, because fettered lets you fling surprisingly effective minor powers around at will with zero risk, and the sheer number of abilities they get lets you drift into the 'good at everything' territory that makes the rest of the kill-team redundant until the one mission where their powers aren't available, at which point they die instantly if someone looks at them funny.
    • By comparison, an Inquisitor or Interrogator can take the The Mind's Eye Opens and The Psyker's Gift, not to mention Unnatural Willpower x2, giving them a powerful-but-limited psychic ability.
      • You won't have the ridiculous number of powers a dedicated psyker does, but you'll have the raw power to batter people good and proper with the more limited number of high-end powers you do have
      • You don't have the same access to the 'what perils?' abilities of a dedicated psyker, so whilst you can turn a tank inside out with a dismissive gesture, you're having to take a serious risk to do so (arguably more than a librarian would due to you being more scared of the same amount of damage than a space marine)
      • You still get a half-decent commander/combat character
  • Squad Mode
    • A Throne Agent isn't a space marine.
    • Once players really get their heads around squad mode, they generally realise just how darn powerful squad mode abilities are. The presence of a throne agent won't necessarily reduce available cohesion (assuming a decently qualified kill-team leader) but it won't exactly help, and they can't benefit themselves.
    • There is an argument for allowing the throne agent (and other battle brothers) to buy the Brothers of the Blood deed. This is good for the marines (they count as one another's chapters and get a free squad action) but even just allowing the throne agent to count as being in squad mode is a fair deal for 750XP.
• Character creation
  • Arguably a house rule still, but would strongly, strongly, strongly recommend insisting on a player using a Heed The Higher Call stock build.
    • These are 13,000 XP 'pre-spent'.
    • If you allow a player to spend that much XP 'tweaked' to their hearts content, you'll often end up with some sort of min-maxed nightmare that will really show up the astartes, just as you would if the astartes players were allowed to 'unpick' their starting characters and trade in largely useless traits, skills and starting gear at will for other stuff more suited to their intended role.
  • More importantly, it gives you a 'one stop drop' of advances which dramatically speeds up character creation. Marines pick chapter & specialisation and then they're pretty much off to spend their starting pittance of XP. Doing it this way, a throne agent needs to pick homeworld, career and ascension package, which is a similar amount of customisability.
  • If you're planning a Deathwatch career with a high body count, faster character creation can be extremely important!
• Careers
  • Obviously, any ascended career is an option in theory. I would probably suggest avoiding the primaris psyker (as noted) or sage. Everyone else can manage, with a mix of talents and kit.
  • Probably the best careers for a largely combat campaign are (unsurprisingly):
    • Crusader
    • Death Cultist
    • Palatine
    • Storm Trooper
    • Magos
    • Vindicere Assassin
• Is the Throne Agent not just massively outclassed?
  • Yes and no.
  • Stats
    • Yes, a marine has a +10 starting stat advantage over a 'normal' human on every stat.
    • Heed The Higher Call gives you a decent-but-focused chunk of stats. Generally, you'll end up with about 1/3 of your stats 'starting space marine grade' (40s and low 50s), 1/3 'normal human' (30s) and 1/3 'better than marines' (high 50s and even 60s)
    • Yes, marines can buy stats themselves with their starting (and subsequent) XP. Throne agents can buy stats to match - assuming your first two advances make up the 10 point differential with an astartes character, the two additional stat increases (heroic and master) means you have pretty much the same ultimate stat potential as the marine. However, they are eye-wateringly expensive - the Palatine's final Ballistic Skill increase (her cheapest option) costing 1500XP
  • Skills & Talents
    • By comparison, throne agents 'win' on value for money for skills. When a marine can find themselves paying several hundred XP for one rank of a skill, being able to buy (for example) Observation Mastery for 500xp and get +20 on all the awareness skills at one go can keep the throne agent on par or ahead of the marines.
    • For the sake of simplicity it's worth making sure you've got Fearless, Jaded or similar!
  • Traits
    • This is the big one in favour of marines - because in most cases you can't buy unnatural strength or toughness.
    • A surprising number of the ascended careers can get unnatural willpower or unnatural agility early and for a reasonable price, though.
  • Wargear
    • I'm aware of the oft-trod argument about 'astartes-class' weapons. I'm happy to have them exist but I know others aren't.
      • IGNORE THE WAFFLE IN THE SPOILER BOX BELOW IF NOT INTERESTED
    • Regardless, they exist in the rules. Space Marines get 'em, Humans don't.
    • Does this mean humans are always going to lose out?
    • Again, yes and no.
    • Comparing an Astartes Bolter to a 'normal' version, it's obvious that the former is better.
      • Note is that this is not an entirely fair comparison because a bolter is not the default weapon a throne agent should be bringing if they expect trouble .
      • You have access to the combined armoury of every Dark Heresy sourcebook for a reason, and using the This One Thing I Ask Of You, you can acquire any item in there for a 1D5 'burn' of influence.
        • A Godwyn-pattern Bolt Pistol outclasses a 'normal' bolt pistol something rotten. But a throne agent can turn up festooned with best-craftsmanship Ryza-pattern Plasma Pistols like they're olde worlde flintlocks.
        • Yes, a marine can (ultimately) acquire astartes plasma pistols, but the reknown requirement is hefty (especially to acquire high craftsmanship versions which no longer risk overheating!), and I'm talking about turning up for day 1, mission 1 with this stuff.
      • Equally, the difference is often less than it looks, because if you're determined to use 'mundane' bolt weapons, you can make up a lot of the difference with talents instead of gear.
        • A Desperado has the option to start with a pair of bolt pistols. However, the Heed The Higher Call version also starts with Dual Shot (one BS roll, two hits, only count toughness once) which essentially halves the target's toughness, and mighty shot which gives the pistol +2 damage. The damage yield from his pistols against a traitor marine (damage bonus 5+2, effective toughness 4) is actually better than someone firing godwyn pistols (damage bonus 9, toughness 8).
    • An important thing to check with regards to damage potential is "can it kill horde members":
      • The Godwyn-De'az pattern bolters are not 'civilian grade' either - but whilst they only pack a +5 damage bonus instead of the Godywn's slightly daft +9, they gain Reliable - a very nice trait if you're planning massed automatic fire because you don't have to worry about jamming.
  • Rules
    • Remember the (slight) differences in mechanics between battlebrothers and throne agents - the latter, for example, have a slight edge in the way they can spend fate points- I don't think, for example, a battle-brother can spend a fate point to reroll a damage roll when attacking.
    • Influence - the rules for using influence to lean on organisations and requisition resources and troops beyond just personal weaponry is something to keep in mind. When the battle-brothers get their requisition, you get your requisition checks:
      • If you're requisitioning gear for only a single mission (like them) you get an effective +20 to your influence checks
      • You get a bonus to one influence check of your choice equivalent to 1/4 of their requisition (so if you've got a ~40-60 requisition mission - not unheard of - that's a further +10 to +15 on one influence check of your choice).
• Respective characters
  • Crusader
    • One of the best swordsmen going (marines included) and capable of facing pretty much anything one-on-one with sword-and-shield
    • Best Craftsmanship Carapace gives you Armour 7, with an extra 4 points of armour on the chest and arm for your shield.
    • Heed The Higher Call's +20 WS and your balanced, best craftsmanship sword means that a mission 1, day 1 parry test of 75 is easy to achieve.
    • Pair with Defensive Stance (penalty to hit you and a second bonus parry per turn) and your starting counter-attack talent and you're great at holding off elite-level melee foes.
    • On the attack, you're just as nasty - yes, as ever there's the Astartes-weapons-plus-unnatural-strength differential to overcome, but a Best Craftsmanship power sword with crushing blow behind it does stack up pretty well against the chainswords the marines will be hefting, especially with your assorted ascended traits
  • Death Cult Assassin
    • The speed a death cultist can manage is insane. Your high (even by astartes standards) agility, combined with sprint and (fortunately) hard target gives you a decent chance of running clean through a horde's automatic fire untouched - you can't dodge, but the penalty to hit a running target combined with the additional penalty for hard target means that even when firing semi-auto bursts, the BS30-odd goons that make up the average horde are likely to feel like they're stuck in the Matrix lobby scene.
    • Paired power swords and many attacks can chop up pretty much anything you get your mittens on.
    • What you can't do is survive return attacks in melee from a horde, and unlike a crusader you can't turtle up very well. Assassin Strike is your best bet, but that means you need someone else (possibly 8ft tall wearing power armour) to keep the horde busy whilst you dart in and out.
    • Don't overlook the fact that you have high climb, swim, silent move, shadowing, concealment and contortionist. Especially in power armour, those are skills the marines can't hope to touch you in no matter how much XP they spend, making you the default person to sneak in and do [nefarious things]
  • Desperado
    • Tying to pretend you're Chow-Yun Fat and take on Deathwatch-level opponents is probably doomed to failure.
    • At the same time, you do have a few good abilities. Master of Locks and Tricks puts you in experienced Techmarine territory for bypassing security, especially with security +10 in the default pack.
    • You're a decent 'face' with charm and deceive, but the marines can - to a degree - match you; stuff like an Ultramarine's Favoured Sons, for example.
    • Note that you get a decent scrutiny skill too - don't forget that Deathwatch adds the 'spot weak point' special ability to the skill, allowing you to up the Pen value of your weapons!
    • As noted above, your starting firepower is better than you'd expect - a pair of bolt pistols with Dual Shot and Mighty Shot can do similar damage to a Godwyn, your BS is likely to match or exceed any of the battle brothers, and with Marksman you can fire those pistols to a similar effective range to the marines' rifles - you can fire with no penalty out to 120m. Admittedly the weapon is then 'out of range' rather than 'applying a penalty to hit' but it's impressive work for pistols.
    • Your starting toughness is not. Dodge +20 and Step Aside is still nice, but unlike the Death Cultist you're standing still (dual shot is a full action), so hordes throwing down massed fire is an issue, and it's one that best craftsmanship Flak isn't going to solve.
  • Hierophant
    • The ascended traits are an odd grab bag - much like the Judge he's a mix of combatant and orator.
    • Not actually that bad in a fight. Hatred, Frenzy and Battle Rage means decent stats- not astartes-quality but surprisingly close - throw in that best craftsmanship chainsword and carapace and you've got a pretty decent fighter.
    • The main problem is that you're trying to fight by charging in and winning by brute force and muscle, which against opponents scaled for marines simply won't work . Even with +10 WS, S, and T, you're still short on damage.
    • Your most important two abilities are Litanites of Hate and Into The Jaws Of ****. if reserve requisition guard companies make an appearance, a Hierophant is the best thing going to keep them pointed in the right direction.
  • Inquisitor
    • Obviously narratively the best ordo xenos 'attachment' but probably one of the least useful to actually have in the field,
    • Inquiry and scrutiny are not bad things to have but useful probably less often than pure combat talents in a Deathwatch campaign
    • The starting equipment list - although you can easily tailor it with a few judicious requisitions - is one of the worst of any career; yes a digital weapon is cool and all but it won't hurt a lot of opponents (okay, maybe an inferno pistol might) and being easy to hide is no substitute for being one-use. Subtlety has its place but that place is not when you've got a kill-team of astartes clomping around with you. By comparison, the lack of even a starting suit of armour of any kind is just painful.
    • As with the Hierophant, you can do worse than battlefield command. Into The Jaws Of **** and command +20 is nice. Staying alive long enough to retain command may be more challenging.
  • Interrogator
    • A rather odd mix - this guy is all about customisability. Wild Skills and Talents means you can spend those starting XP on just about anything, and His Right Hand means that (if there's an inquisitor in the group) you can 'borrow' their skills when needed.
    • Marksman, Mighty Shot and a Rare basic weapon of your choice (with Exotic Weapons an option) means that he's your go-to-choice for using some of the more weird and wonderful things to be found in the various sourcebooks.
    • As a whole, I'd avoid him. He's second-rate as a fighter and poor as a commander.
  • Judge
    • Another combined combat/inquiry character, this time with pretty decent gear - a power maul, combat shotgun with executioner rounds and mighty shot (putting the damage not far short of astartes weaponry) and (light) carapace.
    • Command +20, Master Orator, Into The Jaws Of **** and the Judge's own ascended traits for issuing orders to imperial citizens makes him a great commander and also a great intimidator during insurrections (as he should be!) - being able to yell "stand down!" through a laud hailer at an armed mob busy shooting at the kill team with a reasonable expectation that it'll be obeyed is an exceptional tool in missions dealing with chaos cults or tau sympathisers.
    • +20 Toughness, +8 wounds and light carapace means he can afford to be (vaguely) exposed to enemy fire - at least (unlike the hierophant) he's not running straight into a horde dribbling at the mouth. He has a very limited ability to dodge, though, compared to some, so needs to be very smart once angelus bolt rounds and plasma start flying.
  • Magos
    • Yeah. This guy can be tough even on space marine levels. Power Armour, bionics, The Flesh Is Weak, and the Armour-Monger trait can combine to make him a walking tank.
    • You start with Heavy Weapon training (any two) and I'd strongly recommend upgrading to heavy weapons as soon as practical (especially since you start with bulging biceps). The weakness of non-astartes basic weapons in a Deathwatch game is best overcome by bringing bigger toys. A best-craftsmanship assault cannon, for example.
    • Don't forget Gun Blessing. An intelligence test is a trivial task for a magos, and unjamming two or more heavy weapons in one go can swing a battle.
    • Most of the luminen abilities won't help you that much. Maglev talents are....situational but useful, as are ferric abilities.
  • Palatine
    • Actually one of the closest peers to the space marine.
    • Especially with her starting gear (best craftsmanship non-astartes armour) and some of the exotic relics (opheliate mantle, aspirate cloak) she can get a damage mitigation pretty much identical to a marine in artificer plate, meaning she can stand in the line with the best of them.
    • Also note that Sabbat-pattern armour has autostabilized and a +5 BS targeter built in, making her even better than her basic stats suggest.
    • Godwyn-De'az weapons, as noted, suffer when facing big things but are better than their larger brethren at gunning down hordes because the darn things never jam
    • Your ability to trade for a storm bolter on mission 1, day 1 should not be overlooked because a storm bolter is amazing .
    • Faith talents are a bit of an oddity - they work superficially like squad mode, in that they benefit the palatine and her friends, so it's easy to see her as 'tactical miracle dispenser', but don't overlook Wrath Of The Righteous. Being able to add D5 damage is a nice leg up, but not that big a deal
    • The 'miracle worker' Ascended trait lets you, once per session, spend a fate point for the faith talent's 'burn' effect. For Wrath Of The Righteous, that means that attack does maximum possible damage plus an additional d10 on top . It's the 'divine intervention shot' - from a bolter, it's impressive. From a multimelta ?
    • By comparison, Heroine of the Order moves you a notch up against smaller targets, meaning you can engage elites as well as hordes. Proven (3) with all your attacks against hated targets makes your weapons reliable in damage stakes as well as not-jamming stakes, and encourages multi-die weapons (rather than tearing ones) - a gunfighter saint ex-seraphim with inferno pistols, for example. The fact that you get sanctified for free is great if you happen to really dislike daemons.
  • Primaris Psyker
    • Seriously, avoid this guy. He's one of the least balanced things in a not especially well-balanced supplement
  • Sage
    • You're basically paying for all the scholastic, common and forbidden lores going, at +20. Nice in theory, unlikely to be worth it in Deathwatch.
    • In return, you lack a decent weapon, decent armour and pretty much any useful combat talents
  • Storm Trooper
    • Very nice.
    • No, you're not a space marine. But stack this bundle of stats, homeworld, transition package, and rolled/purchased stats and BS, T, and wounds exceeding the marines are not unlikely, let alone impossible.
    • You are an odd sort-of-sniper-but-not - a hotshot las, crack shot, marksman and special operations training meaning that whilst you don't have the D10+9 damage of an astartes bolter, you get Pen 7 on your shots and suffer no penalties to hit out to 400m range, where a marine with a bolter is going to have a -30 to hit.
    • Depending on the ascended traits you pick, you can be a good commander - field command and command +20, or else pilot +10, drive (all) and drop trooper making you a pilot at least as good as any space marine. Field commander mode requires smart tactics, though, as it's a one--turn effect - still, granting a group of guard heavy weapons teams rerolls to hit can be devastating.
  • Vindicere Assassin
    • The oft-suggested character. Temple Assassin means you can dodge fire from hordes, stealth suit means you often don't need to, and the exitus rifle's turbo-penetrator slug can take a marine into critical damage in one shot
    • Step Aside and Temple Assassin means you're looking at 7 or so dodges a turn. Hurting this guy can be a real challenge.
    • Be very careful to agree what limitations you're putting on Temple Assassin. There must be some situations that basic physics and sanity would not allow the assassin to dodge (extreme strawman: a kilometre-blast lance strike which he was unaware was even incoming) which means that somewhere there's a line where the GM will say "don't be silly". Make sure both parties know where that is before you reach it to avoid arguments!

Actually, rank 9-11 characherts from Ascension (13-25k XP) can completely outshine rank 1-2 Space Marines. I had Kill-team of 3 Astartes fighting alongside Callidus Assassin in heavy modified Final Sanction adventure - she saved them at least twice.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Traits

• This is the big one in favour of marines - because you can't buy unnatural strength or toughness.

Magos can. In the late ranks, yes, but can. And if you allow to use The Lathe Worlds and The Lost Dataslate, then Magos can become almost as durable as Dreadnought in the end.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Wargear

The main problem that I met is a low penetration of human-scaled melee weapon (with exception of power weapon).

26 minutes ago, Jargal said:

The main problem that I met is a low penetration of human-scaled melee weapon (with exception of power weapon).

I can't remember if the special use of the scrutiny skill to increase the pen of a weapon works in melee?

16 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I can't remember if the special use of the scrutiny skill to increase the pen of a weapon

Honestly I can't remember this rule at all...

1 minute ago, Jargal said:

Honestly I can't remember this rule at all...

I only noticed it myself the other day. It might be evaluate rather than scrutiny, but I remember deathwatch having a 'spot weak spot' special use as a boxout.

Which is quite nice, because many of the less combative throne agents will be heavy on investigative skills.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It might be evaluate

Ah, this. It works only against "heavily armoured stationary target such as a bunker or pillbox" - Corebook, p.98.

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Most of the luminen abilities won't help you that much.

Oh, you're so wrong :-) Enhanced Potentia Coil => your Luminen Flare now deal 2d10+WillpowerBonus E, Penetration [WPB], Blast [WPB], Shocking. Your Luminen Surge is now 2d10+3E, Penetration [WPB], Shocking, Tearing. And your Luminen Barrier (= free Force Field with [Willpower] rating) can be activated as Reaction for [WPB] rounds, first use is free. And you can recharge Land Speeder engine or lascannon pack with +0 Toughness test.

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 6:17 PM, Jargal said:

Oh, you're so wrong :-) Enhanced Potentia Coil => your Luminen Flare now deal 2d10+WillpowerBonus E, Penetration [WPB], Blast [WPB], Shocking. Your Luminen Surge is now 2d10+3E, Penetration [WPB], Shocking, Tearing. And your Luminen Barrier (= free Force Field with [Willpower] rating) can be activated as Reaction for [WPB] rounds, first use is free. And you can recharge Land Speeder engine or lascannon pack with +0 Toughness test.

I certainly forgot Luminen Barrier - it's not part of the Heed The Higher Call stock build (I think The Lathe Worlds came out after Ascension, but regardless the pre-builds tend not to include anything not in the core book) - but nothing would stop your retroactively picking it up later.

The pre-built Magos doesn't get a WP boost, though (primarily getting toughness and intelligence), so whilst it's a nice toy to have, if you really want a force field it's not going to be massively better than just shelling for a refractor field.

I grant that the Luminen Attacks hurt, but unlike a Dark Heresy campaign situations where you're caught 'unarmed' should be much fewer and further between; it's quite understandable for a GM to object to you walking through a hive-spire dinner toting a man-portable plasma cannon, but a deathwatch mission tends to be 'weapons free' - or at least 'loaded for bear' - a far higher proportion of the time.

Luminen Charge is a fair point - it's certainly a good reason to focus on las weapons. I'm not convinced a land speeder specifically is going to be much use as even a speeder built to support Astartes would struggle to lift a borg-ed up senior tech-priest, but the point still stands, and powering up a tank or gunship is just as viable.

I think The Lathe Worlds is something to be careful of as a whole, much like The Book Of Judgement. Both were rather out of whack with the power level of 'normal' Dark Heresy characters, but I suspect they're probably fine for Deathwatch throne agents; the Ballistic Surcoat and the Vox Legi Combat Shotgun spring to mind - harsh as heck, but not massively out of whack with Astartes wargear.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I grant that the Luminen Attacks hurt, but unlike a Dark Heresy campaign situations where you're caught 'unarmed' should be much fewer and further between

Main point is that your "weapon" has unlimited ammo and you can't be disarmed.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think The Lathe Worlds is something to be careful of as a whole, much like The Book Of Judgement

Yeah, IH for some interesting gear +TLW+TLD+Ascension = TechPriest Machine of Death.

On 2/22/2018 at 1:03 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

• Is it a good idea?
  • Don't drop more than one throne agent (or maybe two in a really large group). Any more than that and a more sensible idea is a Kill-marine attached to an Inquisitorial Cadre rather than the other way around, and that's an even more awkward game to play.
  • It can work, well and effectively. A well equipped, well-handled throne agent is no slouch - even in a battlefield situation - and can often show up the astartes catastrophically in their fields of competency.
  • What you cannot do as a throne agent is stand in a line next to the astartes at medium range, firing semi-auto bursts from basic weapons at stuff until it falls over. If that's the sum total of tactics your party tries, then the throne agent will feel massively underpowered.
• What house rules/canon should you consider?
  • Command structure
    • If you're attaching a throne agent to a kill-team, you need to understand why they're there. Space marines don't wander around with unaugmented soldiers for no reason.
    • Part of this is the relationship in your universe between the Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos.
    • Since the Deathwatch RPG and the Deathwatch codex came out, the 'chamber militant' concept (as in "Do What The Ordo Xenos Tells You To And Stop Asking Questions") has been heavily played down (presumably because Deathwatch writers liked the 'answerable to no-one' idea).
    • I wouldn't necessarily insist that an attached throne agent is automatically in command of a deathwatch team, but - especially if it's an Inquisitor - the assignment has presumably been done with some degree of authority. At the very least some sort of 'shared authority' ("you're in command for military actions, brother-sergeant, but this is my mission" or similar) is likely. Regardless, figure out as the GM (or as a group) how this is going to work first, and you should avoid arguments in game (or, at least, out-of-character arguments!)
  • Missions
    • You should probably think carefully about the sort of mission the kill-team is likely to be sent on
    • The presence of a throne agent is a good argument for adding (limited) investigation/intrigue bits to a mission, or a larger element of 'take command of this battlefront' rather than just 'go to co-ordinates X4576, Y4875 and murder everyone within bolter range'
    • At the same time, try to avoid turning it into a game of Dark Heresy. Do not derail the deathwatch campaign that the majority of your players (presumably) want to play in favour of one player - but try and create space for them to shine too (after all, Deathwatch are special ops, so they should be expecting to be asked to do this sort of stuff occasionally)

[…] Heed The Higher Call gives you a decent-but-focused chunk of stats.

Yup. They are probably there as specialists or due to specific mission that requires another institution. Not combat specialists at that, because Astartes could as well bring their own fire support with them. Not medics, because they have Apothecary specialized in dealing with their altered physiology.

While the game side implies being more of one group than two cooperating, yet separate groups. Which is why e.g. assassins may just as well be used as "assets" rather than PC/NPC.

This means mostly Ordo of the Inquisition relevant to the mission, or Mechanicus. There are techmarines, but they have rather specific role, generally working with Astartes equipment, while at least biology, sensors and specialized weapons are best left to red robes.

The most obvious example mission would be a genestealer cult that didn't reach "BUGS, BUGS EVERYWHERE!!1" stage yet, and have to be investigated and rounded up with finesse. Especially if the task's already complicated. Such as the place is volatile (literally or figuratively) and/or capture of any infected humans (those of the brood who are not hybrids, only got Genestealer's Kiss) to cure is considered - even Inquisition may want to do it, whether for political or logistical reasons, for practical experience (with this particular strain), or as a matter of principle. And e.g. Salamanders may insist on this themselves. There's still "avoid splitting the group" thing, but this can be done, e.g. Raven Guard participate in sneaking, while others help tech-priests, pilot vehicles, etc until things get hot and noisy.

Or just "there are enough of Orks for everyone, Mechanicus needs to protect its assets and Astartes don't object at all to having some help with demolitions and suchlike".