The only problem is that it becomes just as problematic as "engine upgrade in every list"

Limited will suffice.

Can't remember a ship with two turret slots

aaaah

got it

it's SARCASM

So before you go posting NOPE that would make it unplayable lets look at the facts.

• TLT statistically does more damage than 3 primary firepower. So to sum it up TLT > 3 PWT. (Let that soak through) TLT is better than 3 PWT except at range 1 which anythign is better than tlt.
• TLT at range 3 removes all defensive range bonuses. So remebr HLC outrider. Well thats now on smaller ships that don't spend as much points and you can take more.
• TLT was in 3 of the top 8 to include worlds champion list.
• TLT > Blaster turret in terms of damage.

So lets say hypothetically what if TLT had that blaster turret requirement to spend 1 focus token in order to perform the attack twice? How do you think that would affect the game. Now I'm not calling for a nerf the card is printed and it is already too late for that. But what if TLT required a focus token? Would it have been in the top list at worlds still?

No, TLT needed to be the borderline OP card it is in order to help stop Turretwing. If it was just Blaster Turret 2.0 we'd still have a ton of Fat Turretwing lists.

While we're at it, Blaster Turret should require the Focus token but not require the expenditure of it, like Prockets.

Despite how much I complain about Acewing BS, the meta that TLT helped to shape right now is pretty good. Would still prefer pre-Phantom golden age meta, but this current one is sweet.

I don't know about the Wave 3 meta. If you remember it was a fluster cuck of bumps and furball jousting as B-wings and TIE fighters clump up in the center. Occasionally you got Biggs X-wign but yeah swarm would make a big cluster B-wings would go in and with Adv sensors hit up the brawl. Although I will admit there is some strategy in the whole X-wign version of the 40K Assault, but I think as a flight path players prefer to see their ships move almost every turn.

Yeah, there are some people who really over-romanticize the Wave 3 meta. The time when few people ran A-Wings due to them being overpriced, few people ran Interceptors because they were too fragile, few people ran X-Wings because they weren't as good as B-Wings, Y-Wings didn't get played much because they had no damage output (if they saw play, it was often as a naked 18-point jouster), and the HWK and Advanced were a joke. If you were building a list, the only consideration was "Can this beat a TIE swarm?"

I'm much happier with the current meta, which is as wide-open as anything we've seen.

[Edit: I deleted my first comment as it really isn't necessary or relevant for/to the topic.]

TLTs came out, what 3-4 months ago? Guys are calling already to have them nerfed? The lack of patience in these forums is disheartening.

Guys? Guys? Dude, it is A guy. One. This is the only nerf thread, tlt or otherwise on the entire first page. That means this forum considers this every bit as important the Rebels cartoon and playing with yourself. There is no "sky is falling" to rail against. Posts like yours have all the charm of a good ole fashioned commie scare from the 1950s.

This game has put to rest its biggest issues. The Phantom was fixed, Fat Turrets are in check, Paul Heaver used a hunk of junk ship and beat up R2 unit to put the fear of god into arc dodging aces. The Advanced got some sweet sweet lovin', we got a viable X-Wing, and a not terrible fix to the old one. We are in a golden age, and the forums reflect it. Chill out, and realize how insignificant the complaints are.

We are in a good place, enjoy it while it lasts.

I thought so too with the Integrated Astromech coming out. I was/am collection quite a bit and wondering if there was a good stopping point. Wave 7 didn't excite me with the ships, K-Wing and Punisher especially. But a little love, as Alex said, for the X-Wing. Good fix for the Advanced, Extra-Munitions, Munitions Failsafe and soon the Tracer should make ordnance at least decent (shhhh they are already decent in Epic but don't tell anyone).

Getting back I do like X-Wing but if were to stop then after the Gozanti and Wave 8 I may have a very balanced fleet for both sides. Imperial and Rebel that is. Yes I did buy Star Vipers for the Imperial TIE Interceptors and yes I do try to collect for both sides, Imperial and Rebel.

Ys and Ks and HWKs (oh my!) aren't traditionally the most maneuverable things in the galaxy

Y-Wings with Unhinged Astromechs are close to being one of the maneuverable ships in the game.

No. While green 3-turns is cute against control, against most lists, the Unhinged Astromech Y-wing is just an x-wing with no 4-forward in most games as far as dial goes.

yup

unhinged Y-wings basically slightly less maneuverable than X-wings

the dial's fine and all, but it's

1.) low PS

Y-Wings don't have a native 9 PS pilot but they've got a 7 and an 8. I don't really see what PS has to do with how maneuverable a ship is either.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

Ys and Ks and HWKs (oh my!) aren't traditionally the most maneuverable things in the galaxy

Y-Wings with Unhinged Astromechs are close to being one of the maneuverable ships in the game.

No. While green 3-turns is cute against control, against most lists, the Unhinged Astromech Y-wing is just an x-wing with no 4-forward in most games as far as dial goes.

An unhinged Y-Wing has 7 green maneuvers, 2 of which are turns which is the same as the TIE Interceptor. It can slow roll with a one forward. It may not have the fastest dial because the 4 straight is red and there is no 5 straight but there aren't many ships in the game with a dial as good as the unhinged Y-Wing. You've got X-Wings with R2, Interceptors, TIE/fos, and then a few more that are arguable.

Do TLT-users have epic PS and boost like hell?

nope.

I'm fine with that. Boost-Han or Boost-Dash or Boost-Deci are freaking impossible to play against.

They could. I don't know that it would be worth the points but you could have a PS10 TLT with boost for 36 points (37 if you'd rather have Horton than Jan). You can have a PS9 for 35.

You pay 1 for droid 1 for veteran 4 for boost 6 for tlt and...

****. 37 points. For a boosting Salm

73 points if you want DOUBLE TLT 10 skill boosting party

With little to no damage mitigation, maximum damage of 4 per turn

yeah, you can buy a stress-Y and have a 99 point roster with 3 TLTs and be the uncatchable...

Still doesn't come close to 3-action Dashes and SuperFatHans

Now you're just changing the criteria =).

TLT was in 3 of the top 8 to include worlds champion list.

Autothrusters were in 5 of the top 8 lists, including the world champion's list.

TLT was in 3 of the top 8 to include worlds champion list.

Autothrusters were in 5 of the top 8 lists, including the world champion's list.

Autothrusters are a **** fix band-aid intended to let the developers continue to put out sh*tty turret weapons that do silly damage against normal ships.

Like... yo.

(though, TLT > large turrets. I mean, how can you hate Ys and Hwks? lol)

TLT was in 3 of the top 8 to include worlds champion list.

Autothrusters were in 5 of the top 8 lists, including the world champion's list.

Autothrusters are a **** fix band-aid intended to let the developers continue to put out sh*tty turret weapons that do silly damage against normal ships.

Like... yo.

(though, TLT > large turrets. I mean, how can you hate Ys and Hwks? lol)

And once again, if you have ever seen Fel one shot at Range 3, then you will understand the importance of Autothrusters for the Interceptor.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

Apparently your years of experience never taught you how to analyze a meta. Especially the top tier meta. Just look at the top 16-32 SQUADS of Worlds. Not the factoids that Juggler posted, but the actual squads. I fail to see how you can get much more flavorful than what we saw at Worlds. A diversity that the TLT helped shape.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

And this is where you are wrong. It is not the new meta all by itself. TLT is not always the best weapon. They suffer from bad action economy (they are especially weak to Sensor Jammers) Y-Wings are not the most durable ships. They are tanky, true, but they lack any kind of damage mitigation, which is key for a lot of good ships. Spiking Damage is deadly to them. For example if you give your TIE Advanced Cluster Missiles you can reliably remove one Y-Wing on the first round of shooting, which decreases their firepower by a lot. When they (maybe) then take one of your ships on the return fire it doesn't hurt you as much. 3 TLTs then on the next exchange will struggle to remove one Advanced. You also won't kill one, but it will certainly be done next turn. That doesn't even consider that you can quite easily get into their range 1 bubbles, avoiding the reliable pings entirely.

Please take a look at this years Worlds top 16 and tell me that there is no flavor. Sure, there are a lot of TLTs, since they are reliable by their nature, but there also are a lot of things that are strong against TLTs. Ships with regeneration, with Autothrusters and high agility. We have a meta where 2 TIE Interceptors and a Shuttle are not just viable, but really strong, especially against mindless TLT spam! Brobots also have an easy time destroying pure TLT lists - You see? TLTs will not be the meta because while they are good, there are hard counter for them that are also just generally strong, keeping them in check.

The winning list had 2 TLTs in it. It wouldn't even have changed much had TLT been unique as you suggested, there just would have been more Z-95s or a B-Wing instead of the non Stresshog Y-Wing. It went up against a list that had no TLTs at all. Your analysis is off on this one.

This type of thread is certainly an improvement over "nerf x", "turrets are OP", "fix _________" threads.

It's an interesting thought exercise but I think it's just not good to require a useful weapon an action to fire. That's the major problem with most missiles and torps...

I wouldn't mind seeing decreased usefulness if something doesn't have a TL or Focus OR increased offensive output if something did set up certain actions.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

And this is where you are wrong. It is not the new meta all by itself. TLT is not always the best weapon. They suffer from bad action economy (they are especially weak to Sensor Jammers) Y-Wings are not the most durable ships. They are tanky, true, but they lack any kind of damage mitigation, which is key for a lot of good ships. Spiking Damage is deadly to them. For example if you give your TIE Advanced Cluster Missiles you can reliably remove one Y-Wing on the first round of shooting, which decreases their firepower by a lot. When they (maybe) then take one of your ships on the return fire it doesn't hurt you as much. 3 TLTs then on the next exchange will struggle to remove one Advanced. You also won't kill one, but it will certainly be done next turn. That doesn't even consider that you can quite easily get into their range 1 bubbles, avoiding the reliable pings entirely.

Please take a look at this years Worlds top 16 and tell me that there is no flavor. Sure, there are a lot of TLTs, since they are reliable by their nature, but there also are a lot of things that are strong against TLTs. Ships with regeneration, with Autothrusters and high agility. We have a meta where 2 TIE Interceptors and a Shuttle are not just viable, but really strong, especially against mindless TLT spam! Brobots also have an easy time destroying pure TLT lists - You see? TLTs will not be the meta because while they are good, there are hard counter for them that are also just generally strong, keeping them in check.

The winning list had 2 TLTs in it. It wouldn't even have changed much had TLT been unique as you suggested, there just would have been more Z-95s or a B-Wing instead of the non Stresshog Y-Wing. It went up against a list that had no TLTs at all. Your analysis is off on this one.

Or the Stresshog Y-Wing would have just had an Ion Cannon instead, the damage output would have dropped a bit but the amount of control would go up. The Stresshog would have double stressed at range 1 and 2 instead of at range 2 and 3. Take the spare point and get an astromech for the Y-Wing with the TLT or upgrade the Bandit to a Tala.

It wouldn't have changed Paul Heaver's list much.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

Apparently your years of experience never taught you how to analyze a meta. Especially the top tier meta. Just look at the top 16-32 SQUADS of Worlds. Not the factoids that Juggler posted, but the actual squads. I fail to see how you can get much more flavorful than what we saw at Worlds. A diversity that the TLT helped shape.

What's the point in making your statement? Your point has no validity to my argument.

What won worlds, exactly? Hmm, hmm.

I mean, by your measure, Heaver is the only meta that matters in the game.

Did you miss the part where a 2-TLT list won Worlds?

Did you?

A BTL TLT is not the same as normal, turreted TLTs. Also, are you just dismissing Poe?

And how many TLTs did his opponent have?

What's the point in making your statement? Your point has no validity to my argument.

What won worlds, exactly? Hmm, hmm.

I mean, by your measure, Heaver is the only meta that matters in the game.

Did you miss the part where a 2-TLT list won Worlds?

Did you?

Paul Heaver basically only used one "real" TLT. The other was a BTL-A4 Stresshog build with a fixed arc that used the TLT because it has more range than the other turrets; the build still works just fine with an Ion Turret instead.

He also used a high PS arc dodger with Autothrusters (Which is something present in more of the top 8 than TLTs) and a generic Headhunter. There was some great variety in his list alone.

TLT should have been unique: one per list.

I personally think it is taking the game in a direction I do not wish to follow.

I personally believe it was scantly play-tested.

Let me guess, you're a big an of PS8+ boosting

Nope. I'm a noob to the game with 40 years of wargaming experience.

I recognize the best weapon in the game on the cheapest ships in the game with 8 hit points each.

That's the new meta.

I don't know what the old meta was, because I wasn't around.

I'm actually a prostitute for 4 TIE Advanced with accuracy correctors. Screw rolling dice...

Hopefully something in the next wave adds more flavor.

Apparently your years of experience never taught you how to analyze a meta. Especially the top tier meta. Just look at the top 16-32 SQUADS of Worlds. Not the factoids that Juggler posted, but the actual squads. I fail to see how you can get much more flavorful than what we saw at Worlds. A diversity that the TLT helped shape.

What's the point in making your statement? Your point has no validity to my argument.

What won worlds, exactly? Hmm, hmm.

I mean, by your measure, Heaver is the only meta that matters in the game.

Did you miss the part where a 2-TLT list won Worlds?

Did you?

Go look at the top 32 last year. Make note of how the majority of those lists match a single archetype. Now look at this year's top 32. There's a lot more diversity of archetypes there.

Lists that contained ships with TLT made up less than half of the top 32. I'd have to go back and double check, but I don't believe that TLT was the list defining upgrade in more than half of the lists that took it.

Actually Worlds 2014 wasn't as bad as things got in the Regionals and Nationals that happened between the release of Wave 5 and Wave 7.

TLTs are the new hotness. It will blow over (not go away). They are a boogie man that are used on ships that we already have the tools to take out. Its only really a threat to low agility ships. If thats all you bring to the fight, you will have a hard time.

And the new meta seems to revolve around control. Control of the dice and stress. Paul Heaver's list was Poe, Stress wing, and support. Nathan Eide's list consisted of Poe, Corran, and a blocker.

A BTL TLT is not the same as normal, turreted TLTs. Also, are you just dismissing Poe?

And how many TLTs did his opponent have?

Zero. Isn't that why he lost?

A BTL TLT is not the same as normal, turreted TLTs. Also, are you just dismissing Poe?

And how many TLTs did his opponent have?

Zero. Isn't that why he lost?

I think he lost because the "dangle Corran as bait and then scury off to regen while Poe and the A-Wing go to work" strategy failed.

Heaver was able to keep his ships on the offensive the whole time while almost half of his opponent's points were on the run.