Would "Saint" be a good elite character advance? What would it have? What would you want in it? Would it be too much like the Sister of Battle elite advance? What would the powers be? Would it need a code of conduct or different codes?

Saints are not so alike that you can make an elite advance and thus cover what a saint can do.

I had to stat a saint, I would prob just give that saint some extraordinary powers on a case-by-case basis.

Saints are not so alike that you can make an elite advance and thus cover what a saint can do.

I had to stat a saint, I would prob just give that saint some extraordinary powers on a case-by-case basis.

I don't know, Saints seem to fall into certain categories, Healer, Exorcist, Combatant, Leader. Possibly the advance could be like a non warp based psychic. You could have abilities that don't require a Perils check. Abilities probably wouldn't be as powerful though.

Technically, a "Saint" is just a fancy title the Ecclesiarchy likes to slap on people who are capable of rallying the populace.

Saint Sebastian. Saint Katherine. Saint Joachim.

It just so happens to be that a lot of people are only familiar with Saint Celestine, so everyone jumps to the assumption of "must have magical powers". Whilst that is one route such an Elite Advance could take, personally, I'd rather craft it around leadership and morale. You get to be Jeanne d'Arc, so to say. Your group's Banner Bearer. The Figurehead.

That being said, I'm not sure if such an Advance wouldn't be a little too powerful. After all, it is a role that mobilises entire sectors behind its name. Kind of like making an Elite Advance called "High Lord of Terra".

like a non warp based psychic

Psychic powers without the Warp? How would that work? Isn't the latter an integral part of the former -- meaning, "psychic powers" themselves effectively just being a gateway to tap, utilise and shape the raw forces of the Immaterium?

I'd rather craft it around leadership and morale. You get to be Jeanne d'Arc, so to say. Your group's Banner Bearer. The Figurehead.

That being said, I'm not sure if such an Advance wouldn't be a little too powerful. After all, it is a role that mobilises entire sectors behind its name. Kind of like making an Elite Advance called "High Lord of Terra".

So more like a demagogue? I could see that. I don't see that it has to be too powerful, after all there are a lot of minor Saints too, that nobody ever hears about. You'd probably loose subtlety every time he used an ability though.

As for the non warp psychic part I was thinking he drew his power from the Emperor's grace or something like that. And be more like "anyone within his WB is immune to certain deamonic effects" or "while in prayer to the Emperor no deamon can approach with WB meters".

So more like a demagogue? I could see that. I don't see that it has to be too powerful, after all there are a lot of minor Saints too, that nobody ever hears about. You'd probably loose subtlety every time he used an ability though.

Mhmm, the minor Saints are "just" the ones who were canonised after their deaths. Living Saints are more rare -- usually one every couple centuries, at least if you'd go by codex fluff.

Ah, I see! Personally, I'd cut the "psychic power" bit entirely, and simply base it on the same superstition and religious frenzy that the Sororitas use. In essence, giving such an impassionate speech that you can rally the faithful masses and inspire their willpower to such a level that they can resist psychic incursions. Sort of like a Deny the Witch Bonus!

GW's Inquisitor game had something like that:

" Word of the Emperor: The character is well versed in all the blessings and liturgies of the Emperor, and speaks as if with his voice. The character may spend actions preaching the word of the Emperor, filled with fiery zeal and dedication. An enemy character within earshot must pass a Nerve test or spend their next successful action recovering from their nervousness. Daemonic creatures which hear the Word of the Emperor must pass a Willpower check or be stunned for 1d3 turns."

Of note, Inquisitor's rules for Sororitas characters made it explicit that this was not a psychic power, and as such could not be nullified like one. Rather, it was one of the Acts of Faiths available to the Sister, who had to spend an action (to preach) and then roll a Willpower Test. If successful, the above effect occurs.

The only thing to keep in mind would be to prevent an overlap with existing Acts of Faith in DH2, but I'd say that shouldn't be too hard, considering that these would cover an entirely different aspect of gameplay -- the ones in Enemy Within are combat-oriented, whilst these are more about inspiring allies, or perhaps making enemies nervous, or convincing neutral parties. Social stuff, basically (albeit also suitable for a Sister Famulous or Sister Sabine).

Good ideas. I was sitting here trying to think of the SoB powers so I wouldn't duplicate them in the post.

When I get home I'll start plotting some powers out.

You already had a very good idea with the "daemon repellant"! In addition to this, I'd say a bonus to Deny the Witch (or temporarily granting this Talent to anyone who doesn't have it) would be another good choice. Perhaps a minor SB bonus if you give a sermon before sending allies into melee. Or something Influence-based where the Living Saint wields their reputation against a particularly hesitant noble or officer.

You could probably "recycle" some of DH2's SoB powers if you change just a minor detail, such as modifying the effect not to apply to the caster but instead his or her allies, in a radius equal to their Fellowship bonus x10 in meters (subject to Halo of Command).

Earlier classes and specialisations from the other game lines could provide some inspiration, too. You already listed the Demagogue, for example. The Contagion Demagogue NPC from the DH2 core rulebook also has a cool trick up their sleeve.

I think being a Saint would be quite unbalanced for the rest of the party. I wouldn't feel too happy if the guy sitting next to me at the table is waited upon by the Askellon Synod while I have to wait in line for my Hive Worker Rations

Aside from that, someone being a Living Saint would be so incredibly visible that your Subtlety would sit a negative for most of the campaign. You don't get to be very sneaky if you are a household name in the Sector. I like the idea behind the Elite Advance, but I would call it a Demagogue or Progromite or something that whips up crowds of people.

You know .. if Sororitas can get a Battle Sister Elite Advance, perhaps Ecclesiarchy Hierophants can become Confessors? It's a pretty important title (no Cardinal, but not far below), and they act as beacons of faith not too dissimilar to the more public Saints, except that the latter's arrival on a planet would inevitably soon be common knowledge among the masses (and thus any heretics you may want to hunt down).

I could see calling it confessor instead of Saint.

For a second I thought you were talking about Living Saints, which are way beyond the power level of DH. They probably would steal the show in Deathwatch...

Well, not necessarily actual power ... but the populace generally sees them as personifications of the Emperor's divine will, so you'd probably have a hard time going anywhere without a million zealots following you.

Aren't some of the Living Saints on par with things like Chapter Masters or Chaos Lords though? If I remember the tabletop, Dawn of War and Gaunt's Ghosts correctly...

In the licensed material, most certainly. DoW is a good example, Gaunt's Ghosts probably as well, albeit I haven't read those and so am operating on hearsay here.

But as far as the original GW material goes, it really depends on how you interpret the background, meaning, whether you take everything at face value, or keep in mind how the setting likes to distort such things. In the most optimistic sense, a Living Saint is a personification of the Emperor's Will. If you want to be cynical, however, it is but a title bestowed based on political machinations.

It comes down to how you would prefer to see the setting.

..... Which is exactly why it is entirely inappropriate as an Elite Advance

I think some people are getting stuck on the name. The term saint can be interpreted as meaning 'a person who has supernatural boons given to them by a deity', if you can give me another 40k name (minor saint, Blessed, True Believer, Anointed) for that that would be great. Another trait I was thinking about was 'any weapon he uses is deemed sanctified/holy as long has he wields it' which would be really cool for an ace in a vehicle. Also maybe a tier III trait the lets him recharge fate points, after a successful 20 minute or so Command (roll) speech.

I am glad to see this thread pop up because I have been wanting to create a Confessor Edge, but have been at a loss as to how to do so exactly. All I have come up with is:

Confessor

Prerequisites

Influence: 50

Fellowship: 40

XP cost: 750

Instant Changes

Gains the Peer (Ecclesiarchy) talent, the Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed) skill, the Forbidden Lore (Heresy) skill, and the Leadership Aptitude.

Equipment

Rosarius and Monotask Servoskull (pick one)

Beyond that, I am not too sure. I think a mix of certain Inquisitor and SoB talents might work.

For new stuff, a talent that lets you add your fellowship bonus to the degrees of success for Charm, Command, and Intimidate. Another talent that lets you add your WP to opposed scrutiny checks if someone is lying to you.

What are you all's thoughts?

My thought is that SoB talents should remain SoB talents, else you'd take away from their uniqueness, which doesn't really fit the background. However, you could certainly come up with new talents more suitable to a demagogue that function by a similar mechanic. You could even mirror some of the SoB talents, but twist them in a way that they do not benefit the caster, but rather nearby allies.

For example, the 6E C:SoB gave Ecclesiarchy Priests a special ability called "War Hymns" where they can inspire those around them into benefiting from various buffs, depending on the hymn:

• One called "The Emperor Protects" was for re-rolling failed armour and invulnerability saves, which could convert into DH either by re-rolling Dodges and Parries, or you steal the SoB's "Spirit of the Martyr" to give everyone one or more temporary AP.
  
• Another, "The Emperor's Strength" would certainly lend itself to copying the SoB's "Furious Zeal", conferring a small bonus to melee damage to the caster's allies.
  
• Thirdly, there was "Righteousness of the Emperor", which uses hate to inspire listeners to greater focus. This could convert into DH by either allowing re-rolls to BS/WS, or by providing a flat bonus to attack tests.

I would definitely add a few crowd-swaying talents there, too. The Ecclesiarchy is a warrior cult, and its preachers are accordingly versed in the art of holy war, but their true strength lies in rousing entire populations to take up arms against mankind's enemies.

Perhaps there could even be a talent that gives the character a permanent posse of Frateris Militia .. comparatively weak and inexperienced fighters (to the PCs), but still a boon in any battle, even if it were just for the distraction they provide as meatshields (using them as a Horde to attack), or to protect their master as bodyguards (deflecting a percentage of incoming attacks on the zealots, sort of like having lots of OW Comrades).

The PC could have to pay a few XP to replace casualties among them, though, and that might not be possible everywhere (you could even turn this into a Command test, where the player can invest XP to increase the likelihood to attract followers by buying bonuses or buying off penalties).

You could give them talents that would share their Hatred (x) talent with their fellow Acolytes, or give bonuses to Willpower or Fear/Pinning tests. I like the idea of Confessors leading "War Hymns" as that fits in well with how I see Confessors portrayed.

The War Hymns idea is great. Thanks for that. The idea for Frateris Militia doesn't strike me as an talent thing so much as something that develops during gameplay.

I do love the idea of Confessors having abilities that benefit their allies, though I do wonder about the actual utility of those abilities when it comes to a solo game, which is primarily the reason I am developing the Advance. Fate points being a PC thing means those types of talents wouldn't be of any use.

Granted, a support-based character in a solo game is certainly of questionable use. Is that going to be the PC or an NPC? You could still "salvage" the situation by gathering a bunch of NPCs and having the Confessor boost them, or alternatively get the GM to allow an NPC Confessor to use FP. It's just a guideline, after all.

(personally I've never been fond of using Fate Points as a resource for character-defining abilities ... my own version of Acts of Faith is based on a "once per encounter" kind of deal, but without guaranteed success as it is a WP test)

Alternatively, structure the character more around influencing people and gathering support. "Religious rabblerouser and clever politician", basically, wielding their pull within the Church like others wield their weapons.

My idea of the Confessor would probably be a bit of all of the above.

Also, if it helps, I would compare the Frateris Militia thing to OW Comrades or Minions in DW and BC -- there is definitely a precedent for class-based personnel support. I would probably "embed" it into the game similar to how Investigation works, with the character basically announcing how they want to approach this, and then rolling the test (with modifiers set by the GM depending on the cultural and political situation, representing anything from rival priests interfering - which could then spawn an entire new sub-adventure as the Confessor tries to deal with them - to the settlement simply not being very big and thus having fewer potential volunteers).

I'd not see this as a must, however. Like you said, this could also be done entirely via standard gameplay and RP, similar to how other characters would requisition, say, a platoon of PDF. The Confessor definitely should get an advantage if/when it comes to rolling any tests for raising a bunch of zealots tho.

Yes, the would-be Confessor is the PC. He's definitely a socially-based character so gathering allies shouldn't be much of a problem. I definitely intend to put together a small Fraternis Militia as the story develops. Handling it Only War style might be the way to go.

Then I would take a look at the different Ecclesiarchy Advanced Specialties that Only War offers. Shield of Humanity will be the book to check out.

Ohh, good idea. The specialities themselves are obviously not of much value for Dark Heresy, but most of them come with some very suitable talents that should be easy to translate! The Precentor of Penance even has something akin to the Frateris Militia talent I envisioned earlier.

In addition to this, DH1 Ascension also has the Hierophant, who has a couple of fitting crowd-focused abilities as well.