I also have DotDG, they are great books to read, I was wondering about the crunch. What do I need to convert to make them RT compatible?

Which game do you guys think would be the best to start off with? Is DH simpler than RT in any way? thanks

Nearly everything in DH is 100% compatible with RT. You can easily explain the weapon differences as being from different Standard Templates. The only issue I see is psyker powers. You'll need either convert powers or use 2 different set of psyker rules. (Personally I find the new rules much more sane and balanced.) I've been working on a few adventures, and I've been using everything as it. I think that CA, and DoDG are very good buys for any RT gm.

Dalnor Surloc said:

Well what is the scale of RT? If I'm in command of a crew of thousands, with some of the best munitions available, why am I worried about a daemonette attack? Why am I even fighting anything? Don't I have underlings to do this stuff for me? I keep hearing things about pirates too? Pirates? That would mean that the pirates would have to be RTs themselves and willing to lose their own dynasties in a chance encounter? And out in the Warp what are the chances of two ships meeting? I can see Dark Eldar pirates, but I heard there aren't any xenos in the book? I don't have the book, so I don't know what kind of adventures are suppose to take place. This is obviously not an action rpg if the PCs have access to so many resources (materials and manpower)? So what kind of challenges does a RT face?

calibur1 said:

I challenges is when you, just vissiting your private minning world and its governor and when you just get a message that a Ork Waaagh is on the way to attack your planet, ofc you could just flee but what would your men so think of you, and if you flee you would also loose a whole minning world and that would give you bad reptations, and you would loose manny money on it. So the challenges is to stand up against the giant Ork Waaagh, make you men defeat the orks, and then at last defeat the warboss yourself, thats the Challenges

calibur1 said:

A daemonic incursion of any kind is everyone's concern. They are not trivial matters to be ignored.

Beyond that, the 'crew of thousands' are there to keep your ship running for you - they're not combatants in general, and not iron-willed daemon-hunters in particular. You start throwing those crew into battle to avoid it yourself, and you'll run out of crew without achieving anything (or more likely, they'll mutiny before you run out). Some of the best munitions available means very little in the face of Daemons - afterall, the Inquisition (at the higher points, such as when talking about the Grey Knights) have access to the best daemon-hunting equipment in the Imperium, and they still make a point of giving it to specialised daemon-hunting warriors. More importantly, the 'best munitions available' in a Rogue Trader context, don't apply to the crew, they apply to the player characters - the common ratings and boarding teams will end up with shotguns and similar cheap weaponry, if anything at all, because they're numerous, not as skilled as the player characters, and generally awkward to equip in such large numbers.

calibur1 said:

As I said before, those underlings are a required part of the function of your extremely large and complex starship. It really does take 95,000 people to operate a Lunar-class Cruiser. Some of them may be capable of fighting to a reasonable degree, and you may even have additional dedicated combat personnel aboard. But even then, soldiers (in the context of the Warhammer 40,000 Universe) need to be led, they need to be inspired and commanded and given an example to follow. That's the player characters.

calibur1 said:

How do you come to that assertion? There are scattered bands of pirates all over the Imperium, lurking in asteroid fields and similarly concealed places, ready to ambush traders and the like. Being a Rogue Trader is not a prerequisite for being a pirate. Even without Navigators (quite likely) they can still make trips through the Warp of about 4 light years, so their ability to interfere with neighbouring systems is not beyond consideration.

calibur1 said:

In the Warp, almost no chance at all, mainly because distance and time are essentially fluid in the Immaterium and you're almost entirely isolated from your surroundings. Outside the Warp, approaching a planet, quite high - afterall, you're not the only ship in the void, and those other ships tend to congregate around planets and similar places just like you do.

calibur1 said:

There are example stats for Eldar Corsairs, Ork Freebootas and Kroot Mercenaries, and a pair of example NPC ships - a wolf pack, or pirate, raider of human design, and an Onslaught-class attack ship as used by the Orks.

calibur1 said:

All kinds. They're on a slightly different scale to those in RPGs where the PCs are less abundantly-provided with resources, but that doesn't preclude action, for example. There are sections in the rulebook explaining a variety of different Endeavours (the basic structural component of an adventure in RT - the objective and the reward). You might, for example, be asked to make contact with, and establish a trade route to, an isolated human world out beyond the reach of the Imperium. In order to do that, you might need to destroy or drive off a group of pirates harrassing that world's shipping, engage in tense negotiations with the world's leaders, and successfully chart the route needed for the Imperium to start sending craft to engage in trade (with you gaining a share of the profits). You might instead be required (as a condition inherent within your Warrant of Trade) be commanded to assist with a Crusade to claim or reclaim a sector of space for the Imperium; working alongside a Warmaster, Lord Generals Militant and Fleet Admirals and Astartes Captains as equals in a military capacity (allowing plenty of space combat and just as much potential for ground-based battles as well, beyond negotiations with native human populations either before or after their crushing defeat by the Imperium, and dealing with the complex politics of a crusade's high command).

calibur1 said:

calibur1 said:

calibur1 said:

That sounds really cool. I'm looking forward to my copy arriving now. Just a couple of questions...

If I have a crew of 95K, or even 10K for that matter, if only 1% knew how to fight I'd still have a defending force of 100. Now if I'm a RT buying and trading in munitions I might be able to afford a one-time loss of 100 las rifles (or even a 1000) and good armor to supply said crew and call them shipboard marines. And if a group of acolytes can take down a daemonette, then a company of NPCs can too. Afterall, who keeps all the other crew members in line? And I'm pretty sure more than 1% of a crew knows how to fight, especially onboard a cruiser. Void-born PCs do come from these ships. I'm just saying that is a LOT of red shirts to fight for me, yes? And why would I, as a RT, be leading them? That's what junior officers are for. I'm assuming there still is a chain of command? Why would the RT be telling the janitors which way to run? That would be silly.

Although establishing trade routes, negotiating trade, charting trade routes (I'm seeing a pattern here) are all things that senior officers would do, that doesn't sound very swashbuckling? Is the space combat and ship armory extensive, because that looks to be the only action that you're really getting?

Ever read the creature anathema, that stuff is devastating for morale and if your crew doesn't feel safe you get deserters, just beacouse something doesn't pose a direct threat to you doesn't mean it isn't bad. And besides the things can attack you on a huge scale as well.

Deserters? Where are they going to desert to, the Warp? And there's nothing in the Creatures Anathema that a 1000 or 100 crew, armed with las rifles, can't handle. If something does attacke en masse, does the book cover large-scale combat? As for leading by example... The commander of a warship doesn't get out and load the crusise missiles with his crew. Nor does a aircraft carrier commander fly with his squadrons. And neither does a troop transport commander lead the marines storming the beach. They all do what they're expected to do, and that is to lead from the battle bridge, sending orders down the chain of command. There is no question of reputation. That is what the crew expects from their "Captain."

As for "searching for fame and glory" that's what I'm asking about. Besides looking at charts and blasting pirates, what am I looking for? Hmmm... I know I'm not explaining myself well enough. I'll use a simple D&D example. A group of adventurers finds a treasure map. For fame and glory (and profit) they decide to go after said treasure and explore the dangers it entails. NOW... I'm a RT. I find a treasure map. For fame and glory (and profit) I decide to go after said treasure. BUT I bombard the opposition from space and then send down a 1000 crew to go get my treasure. That is the most logical course of action. Yes? No?

calibur1 said:

For creating a threat, you need to use the backround and imagination, not only the statistics. Of course, Khorne Juggernaut isn´t that tought from the 100 meters and when you are armed with Blessed Krak Missles and heavy bolter with psycannon bolts and 50 fearless merceneries. But when it charges you from behind in the confined storage area and you have "only" a power sword, bolt pistol and assault shotgun, it´s completly different matter altogether.

You think there is nothing what can threaten you and your party when you have at least 1000 combat skilled underlings (armsmen, house troops, merceneries, whatever) under your command? Ok, so, what would I do, if I was your GM:

1/ Ghilian Uprising with Pale Throng support- worst scum hidden in the Dark Holds of your starship emerge from the forbidden and lost corridors in their thousands in disturbingly organised attempt to take over the vessel you consider your own. Hordes of mutated voiders storm through the ranks of superstitious, suprised and horrified ship ratings. Hundreds of your house troops pour down to steam down the rebellion, but they are lured into the traps and dark corridors and than slaughtered by monstrous Hullghats (who are, somehow, cooperating with the ghilians) and strange, but well skilled mutant terrorists smuggled to your ship. Important parts of ship suffer from sucide attacks of ghilians who strike through the intersections and shafts throught the all ship. Rumours of common refugees from other parts of ship turning into sadistic, clawed monsters (witch-kins by the way) destroy morale even far from actual fight. Renegade psyker merceneries and witches unleash warp-hell and horrors on everything in their way, and are seriously disturbing and threatening the Astropath Choir and Navigators. And there are quickly spreading whispers of shrouded master behind everything.

2/ Dark Eldar slaver raid- innocently looking pilgrim ship hailing/passing/being boarded by your ships isn´t what it seems to be. As the first dark lance puncture your cruiser, the shadow-field dispered and quick raid by fallen Eldar corsair is underway. First salvo neutralises most of the defence turrets and so masses of assault pods are soon cutting through the hull. Webway portals are opening everywhere on the ship and hordes of dark eldar corsairs are catching horrified ratings almost at will. Armouries, barracks and most important corridors are neutralised by obscene traps and demolition charges. Whole ship levels are swarmed by warp beasts and grotesque monster to hold on the counter-attack by the armsmen who are outnumbered and also confused by whole work-gangs desperatly trying to outrun the inhuman slavers. And there is second, much more protected assault pod wave inbound, aiming at the ship´s bridge.

3/ Cunnin Freeboota Boss- while passing the well used warp-route, your ship is knocked out of the warp by unknwon warp energy, which couse several astropaths, Navigators, and dozens of more sensitive crew members die screaming, heads exploding and afteryelling the word "WHAAAAAAGH!!!". Unprepared ship sensors see one ork raider waitng for them near the asteroid field. What they don´t see is gigling ork warboss, who by sacrifing some of his weirdboyz begin the incredibly cunnin plan to loot the ´umie vessels. Massive coils inside the raider are huming with energy, and hundreds of veteran freebootaz, assault sqiugs, lootaz, cyborgs and mega-armoured nobz are prepering to use da new experimentin WHAAAAGH attack- da tellyporta attack.

4/ Charnel Dome- it was just a flicker of the Geller Field- but one of the Navigators is now possesed by terrifieng Charnel Daemon! It is quicly slaughtering the remaining Navigators, Astropaths are screaming from warp-pain, alarms are wailing on whole ship, one Navigator is literally driven insane and start the carnage of house troops trying to stop the warp entity. What is worse, the insane navigator want to exit the Empyrean to banish the ravening daemon. By switching off the Geller Field! And the Charnel monster is descending from the Navigator´s dome to the bridge, and rest of the ship...

If you think, that hundreds and thousands of your troops alone could handle these situations, then I could only wish you good luck and slightly remind you, that this isn´t a Star Trek or Star Wars... this is Warhammer 40 000

calibur1 said:

calibur1 said:

You can't stay in the Warp forever. Eventually you have to make port, to resupply and trade. Plenty of opportunity for someone to jump ship. Also, don't forget the possibility of mutiny. There's one of you and 10,000 of them.

calibur1 said:

You're examples are rooted in modern military culture. 40K isn't. It's much more medieval. The Imperium has a long history of commanders leading from the front, charging headlong into battle, sword raised high (yes, sword!) shouting his battle cry as the las-shots zip by. The commander who won't face the risks with his men is a coward and morale suffers accordingly. That's the culture you're commanding in and that 's the expectation of the crew.

calibur1 said:

As others said, if you bomb the site from orbit you risk blowing up the treasure. If you send your crew down to get the treasure, (especially your crew who things you're a coward and unfit to lead) you risk a mutiny, where some charismatic junior officer convinces the crew to grab the treasure for themselves, divide it among the mutiniers and tries to seize the ship upon returning.

That said, if I were running the game, I'd shape the adventure so that you needed to use your 1000 soldiers to get the treasure... which after all if guarded by an army of ork freebooters.

calibur1 said:

calibur1 said:

No. I mean, if you bombard the target location from space, there's a significant chance that you'll have reduced the treasure to a molten pile of uselessness in the bombardment, or otherwise befouled your chances of actually getting to the treasure. And you may not have dealt with the enemy particular well either, if they're (say) hidden within an underground city unseen by human eyes.

Rogue Traders are not typically lazy men willing to sit aboard their comfortable starships and let their subordinates do all the work; sometimes, you have to get up from your command throne, grab up your plasma pistol and power sword, and take matters into your own hands. Other Rogue Traders will laugh at you when you go to regale them with the tale of when you "shelled the tomb-city of the ancient, extinct Xenos civilisation and had my men dig through the rubble for eighteen months looking for the treasure that was in the middle" while they're talking about how they "shattered the morale of the Ork raiding force above Carsepolis by boarding his 'Kroozer' and slaying the warlord in single combat, taking his ill-gotten loot in the process".

Seemingly stupid risks yield stupidly large rewards. That's what being a Rogue Trader is all about - you head out into uncharted wilderness space, where cold worlds orbit dying stars, where undying monstrosities slumber, where human civilisations have not felt the Emperor's light and Xenos breeds stalk the stars unhindered. Infinite wealth and infinite danger go hand in hand, and those who triumph against all odds are lauded as heroes when they return to the Imperium, their names going down in history for their deeds, while those who fail are forgotten in the depths of the void.

A lot of the time, it comes down to doing things the James Tiberius Kirk way - lead the away team yourself and save the day single-handed. Your crew are red-shirts - when confronted with danger, their only purpose story-wise is to die in order to illustrate how dangerous an enemy is.

You can, if you want, send down hordes of troops to do your bidding. You can hire regiments of mercenaries (there are rules for doing just that). It's just that they rarely come in that useful. Drop 1000 men onto a planet and 90% of the time either a) the enemy will run and hide or b) the enemy will slaughter them or possibly c) the men will mill around for a while, then send a message back to the ship saying "uh, boss, what do we do now?"

A regiment of troops is a big hammer, useful for hitting nails but pretty useless for anything else. Usually the RT will be better off taking his best people (the other PCs and maybe a few specialist NPCs) and doing the job himself. They are the equivalent of a special forces team with diplomatic training and psychic and technical expertise. It's simply the most profitable option available to them.

I would certainly dock a Rogue Trader a few Profit Factor points and some Morale if he did nothing but sat in his command throne and sent mercenaries to do all his work. After all the loss of cash and resources from running expensive combat operations and the loss of face for his dynasty would definately cause a loss in power and the cowarly nature of such a captain in the 40k universe would definately reduce his crew's opinion of him.

Furthermore, while there are instances where the RT will need to land with a small army, there are situations where a 'mess of men' are just not going to do much besides die horribly or destroy whatever it is you're going after, especially if you aren't there to lead them. Sometimes, the RT and his command crew need to approach the situation from an 'A-Team' perspective and even the most normal trade negotiation or cargo milk run can become an adventure when local events outside of the RT's knowledge cause the fecal matter to hit the ventilation exchange unit. Want to trade with Noble X on world Y? Well, just as you're having dinner with him, his borther decides to stage a coup. Need to transport a cargo of ammunition and supplies to an Imperial Expedition Force fighting the bug-eyed monsters of B'Movie X, well those bug-eyed monsters have thrown in their lot with Chaos and sent a Murder Class Cruiser to intercept you. The possibilities are endless for someone with an ounce of imagination and even those without have a Misfortune table to spark their noggins.

But then, this is a silly discussion to have. Seriously, if you don't want to be 'adventurous' then why are you playing this or any other RPG in the first place? If all you want to do is sit on your command throne and run things from 'afar' then you really will be happier playing a wargame like 40k or Battlefleet Gothic rather than an RPG. And if you're looking for an RPG that really reflects the life of a non-40k military officer, I suggest you create one called 'Paperwork: The Gathering" which would allow you to RP what real officers do with 90% of their time...

Wow! There are a lot of good responses here, so I’m going to try and answer them all in order. The quote thingy isn’t kinda working for me at the moment so bear with me…

TorogTarkdacil:
First, Dark Eldar are so cool! OK… that being said, any GM can create a doomsday scenario. That’s not even a challenge. If a 1000 of “anything” meddle, mutate, mutiny, whatever, against a handful of PCs then the resulting scenario will be the death of those PCs. Game over man, game over. I’ve read that the PCs are the equivalent of rank 5 DH characters, so they certainly aren’t supermen. Even a handful of space marines will be taken down by a 1000 angry determined mob in a confined space. You might as well ask me what if the mob detonates the warp drive and blows the ship into so many ashes? You get the same results. So what would my RT do in the situations you’ve presented? My answer is die like any other RT placed in that same impossible scenario. If this isn’t Star Trek or Star Wars, then what is it? What is the logical basis of adventure here?

LuciusT:
Seriously? I have no competent or loyal junior officers? You’re trying to tell me that the RT and senior officers (PCs) have to instruct each and every of the 95000 crew members onboard? The RT knows each and every one by name? They play canasta together on the weekends? There has to be someone besides the RT keeping the crew in line. Besides, since everyone here has the consensus that the crew is incredibly incompetent, I highly doubt that they could pull off a mass exodus/desertion from the ship. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that they poop themselves and cry uncontrollably every time a mutant pops its head out of ventilation shaft and then turn around and say they’re able to organize a skilled and detailed desertion/mutiny without the RT’s godlike leadership.

Modern military culture is rooted in pre-medieval war tactics, and the chain-of-command is the most basic of military doctrine. To say that it is not practiced in a game based on mass war is ludicrous. The space marines don’t have a chain-of-command? Really? The God-Emperor himself leads every single marine into combat personally?

N0-1_H3r3:
I’m not oblivious to the “theme” of Rogue Trader. I have Dark Heresy, and I understand and like it. I have never played 40K the wargame or read any of the novels. And my copy of RT hasn’t arrived yet. All I have to go by is what I’ve heard and read in forums. That is why I am confused. I am detecting a contradiction of “what it is” and “what you do.” The scale of the game is also throwing everything off-whack. How can you seriously be a daring swashbuckler, tackling a million Dark Eldar girl-scout pirate ninja mutants personally (as many of you pointed out as to how this game is played) while your crew of 95000 sit on their bums and drool as they incompetently row your spaceship through the warp? You can’t see that there is something logically wrong there?

Why am I even asking? Because I have owned the original Star Trek (by FASA) and Star Wars (by West End Games) role-playing games. While Star Wars was playable and believable, Star Trek wasn’t. On TV and in the movies you just didn’t notice or rationalize why the Captain of the ship is placing himself and the senior officers in unnecessary danger. You do however when you’re actually playing it out in a game. Now it’s affecting you, and you have time to step back and think about it. Of course everyone goes along with it, because they want to play. But you have to suspend so much logic that it seems ridiculous, and the game turns into a joke. None of my players ever took a game of Star Trek seriously, and I’m seeing a possible repeat here with Rogue Trader. I’m not rich. These books cost a lot, and I don’t keep them around just for decoration.

macd21:
Again, am I’m seeing that space and mass combat seem to be the going trends here? If so, how does RT cover these? If my RT is to gallantly lead his brain-dead crew of hundreds or thousands into battle, is mass combat at least fast and easy? What about ship weapons and defenses? Since a lot of this game seems to ride on space combat, does RT have an extensive list of ship munitions or even ship types (including xenos)? Can I assume that my bungling crew know how to operate the ship’s defenses, or does my RT have to run from turret to turret himself and fire while piloting the ship and handling engineering? Or is this the job of our missionary while the deaf and mute junior officers are staring at the walls?

Luther:
No. That is a complete cop out, and NO rpg gets off that easy. It is in poor design to assume adventure for adventures sake. Even D&D has the most primitive of excuses to adventure… The PCs are poor, unemployed, homicidal sociopathic thieves who kill and grave rob for fun and profit. Eventually the psychopaths kill enough things to become kings themselves, and then the game either ends or takes a different direction. That direction usually means confronting the kingdoms of the other psychopaths and their retainers and hirelings, or challenging the gods for power. At that point the PCs are so powerful that doing the tasks themselves is too beneath them. If you want to turn RTs into Errol Flynn, that’s fine, but I want a **** good logical and believable reason to do so, because I’m the one who has to feed this excuse to the players without them rolling their eyes and chuckling.

calibur1 said:

Well, when the Emperor stopped leading from the front, returning to Terra and leaving the Crusade in the hands of his Warmaster Horus, Horus and half the Space Marine legions rebelled and started a civil war that almost destroyed the human species...

It's got nothing to do with knowing each ratings name or personally giving them orders. It's got everything to do with every one of the those ratings seeing you standing at the front of the charge, sword in hand, not only facing the same foe they do but being in the thick of battle, head to head with the worst the enemy has to offer.

Ludicrous? Heck, yes! We're talking about a universe with three mile long space ships decked out like gothic cathedrals, a universe were soldiers fight with man portable laser weapons and freeking swords! 40K is ludicrous! That's part of the charm.

A few things about crew is that they are non-combatents or security personel but they all have jobs on the ship. If you start pulling people off thier jobs the ships readyness suffers. Crew moral is a factor as well, if the crew are sent to do things that they are not qualified to do the moral of the crew will suffer and the fact is that most of the time they aren't very good at the job. Give 200 random crew members guns and ask them to go down to a planet then they will likely screw it up, while they may haul guns all day long fine, on the ground their dicipline will likely collapse and thier lack of training will become a hinderance. If all goes well then it may be fine but if anything goes wrong and there is alot of casualties crew moral will take a nose dive. They are just not employed to do that kind of thing and the idea that they are being forced to do it becuase thier leader hasn't the balls to do it himself will hurt moral.

On the desertion front, you cant stay away from Port forever (there is rules concerning this), as soon as you hit port then crewmen that are dissatisfied will leave in droves and if you try and keep them on board they will mutiny (again this is part of the rules). Your crew aren't military personel, Rogue Trader is not a military position, most of the time if you are in a mass firefight you are doing it wrong. The reason the Rogue Trader will leave the ship will be because most of the time your mission will have nothing to do with fighting, it will be to explore ruins for archaeo or xenos tech, it will be to start relations establish trade routes. It will be things that require the specialist skills of the PC's, it is the reason most are employed.

You then have to consider Imperial politics, if people find that you send men to die while sitting on the bridge then they will use it against you. They will inflate the stories and when it comes down to a lurative deal it will go to someone else, someone who has a better reputation than you. Even if you as a player dont think it makes sense it doesn't really matter, it is the mindset of the people you are dealing with in the setting that matter and for the most part that is a very Medieval mindset where personal honor is important and being accused of being a coward can be really damaging.

You can employ people to do stuff for you but then how do they know how to deactivate the xenos defences or know whether an item is inoccuous or lethal. When they come accross the human settlers who can be swayed then they are not going to risk that they are not hostile they will take measures to ensure their safety, they may not start shooting but rough treatment may damage the chances of ever getting help and rough treatment would be exactly what they would recieve (look at military protocol for dealing with people you suspect harbour enemies). Using mercinaries is acceptable but in most circumstances a Rogue Trader finds himself in it is the specialist skills provided by the PC's that will make the difference rather than brute force. You also have to remember that Mericinaries fight for money and will not risk thier lives unduely and if you ever want to hire mercinaries again then you will not try threatening them.

These are a few reasons for the player characters leading like they do. If you want you can keep arguing that they thousands of untrained NPC's should be allowed to do the jobs but any GM worth his salt will make sure that the consequences are harsh and will make sure that the situations where brute force is all thats needed is kept to a minimum.

Kaihlik

Calibur: whole Warhammer 40 000 is a apocalypse made real, there are just some moments, where you need inglourious heroes/villians rather than thousands of men at arms to hold off the doomsday clock :-) Btw.: Of course the Dark Eldar are cool, altough from the Dying Ones I consider nobody as cool as Harlequins...

How could a PC of RT group make difference in these situations?

1/ Personaly securing the most vital parts of ship, organising defence and many times mentioned lead by example, executing the cowards, exterminating enemy witches, finding stories and spy reports of ghilian activity and holdings from the past, breaking deal with secret ship deat-cult to cordinate actions against mutants, tracking down the entity leading the rebellion...

2/ Many as before, organising the rescue parties to save vital members of the crew, with their high authority protocols voiding parts of the ship into the vacuum, chalenging the Dracon in duel (but don´t forget Indiana Jones´ solving of duels:)), good example of this situation is presented in novel Relentless

3/ OK, as I look at this situation, I overmake myself, this is completly frakked up:-)

4/ Hunting down both the Daemon and mad Navigator, reasoning and delaying the latter one, looking for, fighting for, aquiring, studying and trying to use forbidden tomes from secret holds of ship´s Librarium, executing crew members also driven insane, breaking the deal and creating the unlikest intership alliance possible...

calibur1 said:

Fully armed and armoured, no they won't. The kinds of weapons wielded by an angry mob (improvised and primitive, generally speaking) won't do more than scuff the paint on the Marines' armour, while the Space Marines can happily keep punching all day until there's nothing but a thin red gruel all over the walls, floor, ceiling and their fists.

calibur1 said:

Incompetent? No. Inconsequential to the plot? Yes. A hundred thousand faceless NPCs should not be a substitute for intervention by the PCs. That's just boring, and will lead to disinterested players and very short games.

You're also waxing hyperbolic at this point. Daemons aboard your ship is orders of magnitude worse than "a mutant [popping] its head out of a ventilation shaft". Aspect Warrior boarding teams and Ork Freebootas are things that pose a threat to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy forces, so they're not inconsequential either. The crew of a Rogue Trader's starship are not, inherently, professional soldiers. A few are specialists with very complex jobs.The majority are press-ganged muscle. That's not to say that they're incompetent, but rather that fighting Orks and Eldar and Daemons is not in their skill-set.

calibur1 said:

Drool incompetently? Again, you're heavy with the hyperbole.

Everyone's job description is different. A multi-million-tonne starship requires vast amounts of labour to run - tens of thousands of men. There'll be a chain of command aboard the ship, certainly - it's there to keep the ship running. So, while the crew of 95,000 toil away keeping the plasma reactor within operating limits, keep the guns clean and ready to use, ensure the void shields and geller field are functional, and generally do everything they can to avoid having the city-sized starship they call home from being torn apart by unimaginable horrors when next it enters the howling maelstrom of unreality that is the Warp, somebody else has to concern themselves with the outside world.

That's the Rogue Trader's job. Him and his retinue (that is, the Player Characters).

calibur1 said:

An exploration vessel like a Constitution-class in Star Trek benefits from being largely automated and extremely easy to run. It's crew live relatively easy lives, and are specialists in their chosen field - scientists and physicians and engineers and security personnel. That all in mind, your argument is entirely valid.

A Lunar-class Cruiser granted to a Rogue Trader does not have those luxuries. The ship is not automated - it can't be, as machine intelligences any smarter than a housepet are illegal. Its crew are not, by and large, well-educated men and women in an idealistic civilisation, but vast hordes of superstitious, ill-educated labourers whose jobs are menial but crucial. Those few specialists with greater knowledge of what's going on are rare and extremely busy - you don't distract the Tech-Priest in charge of ensuring that your engines are correctly sanctified, blessed and maintained (and you don't dare suggest to him that he should teach other crewmen how to do his job - knowledge is power, and it should be guarded well and restricted to the few). Your argument falls down a little here - there isn't really any crew spare to head down to a planet and poke things.

A Rogue Trader and his immediate retinue are the ones whose job it is to do those things. The ones with the power to make the decisions and the opportunity to do things that extend beyond the outer hull of the ship. It's dangerous, yes... but no more so than the risks of being immolated by a leak in the plasma reactor, or the chance of being crushed by the macro-cannon shell you and four hundred others are manually loading into the magazine.

The Rogue Trader's first responsibility is exploration in the name of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind. Commanding a starship is a means to that end (because it's difficult to go from world to world without one), not the other way around. The Rogue Trader gets his hands dirty at the front lines because it's his job, and because nobody else is qualified to do it (amongst other things, the risk of spiritual corruption is high out beyond the edges of the Imperium; a Rogue Trader has explicit permission to go and confront it; the ratings down on the gun decks don't).

Ship combat is indeed fast and easy, by all accounts. The PCs can take command of certain tasks or they can leave it to the crew (generally it's better if one of the PCs is directing them). For example the Arch-Militant should probably be in charge of gunnery, an explorator should be in charge of repairs, if anyone is a surgeon he could tend to the med-bay etc.

Currently the game is rather sparse when it comes to options for ships and weapons. There simply wasn't enough room for more, but we can expect a supplement soon. Currently when designing a ship the players can choose from 8 different hulls. From this starting point they have a lot of variety with regards to ships systems, weapons etc. Currently there are two broad categories of weapons - lances and batteries, though there are multiple variants of each. The ship hull they choose will determine how many and where they weapons will be. The ship expansion should include torpedoes and attack craft (fighters and bombers) and probably other weapons (possibly including the dreaded Nova Cannon).

In addition to firing on each other the ships can also board each other or launch hit and run attacks. In a hit and run the ships get close enough that small craft can move from one to the other, taking small teams of boarders to launch strikes at critical locations before escaping back to their own ship. Again this probably requires one of the PCs to lead the action to stand any chance of success. The enemy ship will try to shoot down the attack craft with their point defence turrets and the enemy commander will have to try and lead his troops against the boarders.... or if the attackers have access to a teleportarium they can just teleport right into the enemy ship. This is even nastier if the attackers have a company or more of Murder-Servitors (imagine Borg drones, except not as nice).

I don't have a problem with a Rogue Trader ordering his crew to do things off-ship, but taking more than a small percentage at a time is a really bad idea. First off they each have a limited skill set. Most can only handle a few tasks relevant to their posting. If you take too many from any given area for an extended task, your vessel may be lacking in a key service. If you spead out your selection, you now have a mob that lacks any real experience working with one another.

Also, look at the Hired Gun (page 370) and the Voidfarer (page 371) if you want an idea of how capable these guys are going to be for stat-relevant off-ship encounters. In simples terms, they're PC-directed mooks. If you're using them to tie up opposing mooks and allowing your PCs to directly deal witth more dramatic NPCs and challenges, then you're doing it right. If you're letting the PC-directed mooks overcome the dramatic NPCs and challenges, then you've missed the mark.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actualy, there is mass combat rules. They can be found in RT pg 292 under the heading "Mass Combats" ;-)

From glancing them over, there's two ways they can be handled, a detailed and slow way and a cinematic and fast. Enough for most mass combat situations I reckon.

As for the whole captain stays on the bridge talk that's going back and forth, I'd like to mention one ting tat hasn't been brought up in regards to Endeavors. An endeavor can be run in two modes: Active and In the Background. An active endeavor is one where the PC's are actively involved, making decisions to solve problems as they arise, etc while one that is run in the background is one handled strictly by NPC's. Both are valid and, in fact, this enables the PC's to have several endeavors going at once to get as much Profit as they can in as short amount of time as possible. However, the book goes on to explain that endeavors that are run in the background will be problematic (with potential complications that can crop back up down the road), they will take longer then they normally would to complete, and they will not net as much Profit for the PC's as they would have been able to get if they had going into it themselves. Sometimes, if you want a job done right, you really do have to do it your self.

However, using the mass amounts of NPC's at their disposal is a valid tactic for PC's. Why give them men if they can't use them after all? A lot of the time, however, while doable, it might not be the most profitable choice. In the end, Profit is the primary motivator for the RT and his crew. There's always more then one way to solve a problem, but not all ways will net you the same amount of profit. It's not a binary matter of succeeding or failing at something but how much profit you can pull out of it. Sending a chunk of your men to their doom to secure a treasure could very well work, but it will cost you as you'll have to replace those that died and, as mentioned earlier, the RT's rep could take a ding (and, as such, cost more profit). The gains of the treasure might very well outstrip those losses, but it would have been even more profit if they didn't take those losses and still got the treasure. In this game, it's not about surviving, it's about thriving and that means getting as Profit as possible.

While adventure can be found in any setting in any way and not just in mortal combat with some beasty, tat can and dose still happen in RT. A few more ideas:

Dark Eldar launch boarding parties in mass against the PC's ship. In side, men are being cut down left and right. Will the PC's seal themselves on the command bridge and give orders from there or seek out the enemy that is desecrating their vessel? If they stay on the bridge, there will be a lot of tense communications from the crew, comment and Tachtia checks will need to be made (at a negative for not getting first hand info) wile the GM makes a roll or two for each side to see how it goes. Eventually, the Dracon and his elite honor guard make it to the bridge and cut their way in. No matter how the rest of the crew are doing up to that point, suddenly the PC's find themselves in the pivotal battle. If the Dracon takes the bridge, it could be all over...

If they chose to take the fight to the DE, the could give out commands to their solders as they see them in the halls in massive bloody conflicts. Again, mass combat rules are used and a few quick roles are made by the GM to see how it goes with the PC's side augmented by the success or failure of the command checks and any tactical advice on how to proceed that the PC's give their underlings. As the fighting continues, the PC's spot the Dracon wading through the shipmen, cutting them down like they are tissue paper. Suddenly, they have a fight worthy of their skill. If the ship men continue to attack him, it will be a slaughter (and they're fighting for their lives against all the other DE). The PC's, however, with a roll or two can wade through the carnage to the Dracon and engage him strait out and, if they can bring him down or force him to retreat, the moral of the DE will be broken and they will fall back. Of course, the same is true of the PC's men. Of they run, their men will to and the DE will suddenly and joyously find themselves stalking a routed and now disorganized force ripe for the picking.

In all things, the PC's actions will be reflected in their men. If they fight on valiantly, so will those who see them as a shinning beacon, a grand hero to live up to or die trying. If they run, the men will realize that what ever they are up against is too much to take on, they will panic, and they will break ranks. You just have to ratchet up the scale you think on. A fight isn't a few guys against a few guys, it's small armies butting heads all looking to their leaders for guidance and inspiration.

Finally, if there seems to be a logical break in a captain leaving his ship or a commander leading his men from the front lines, just remember, logic is a dirty dirty work in 40k. "Logic is the mask of traitors" and "a logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction" are two nuggets of wisdom from the setting. The setting it's self is ludicrous. It will fail if you try to take it too seriously or apply to much common sense to it (it loathes common sense). It's excessive over the tip insanity where things are done the way they are because it's just too cool that way and for no better reason. Once you accept that, embrace it, and wallow in it, the more fun you'll have with the ridicules and over the top aspects of the setting. It doesn't need to be logical. It just needs to be cool.

Graver said:

Ah, thanks for that. I'd completely missed those...

I can’t run this game. I can’t tell my players to “ignore the man behind the curtain”, because the setting dictates it. That’s just weak sauce. I’ll get laughed out of the game store with that excuse. It didn’t work with Star Trek or Paranoia; it’s definitely not going to work with Rogue Trader. This is going to end up being another joke game, and I don’t have the time or patience to do that again. What really sucks is that it’s too late to cancel my order. Thanks for the explanations, and sorry for the tangent.

To all of those who think there is no reason for a rogue trader (or his command staff) to get involved in combat has no idea what a feudal system is.

EVERYONE has a role in a feudal system including those at the top. You could probably get away with doing more than is required (such as a navigator going on "away team missions") but you would be thought odd or eccentric. However if you try and get away with doing less you are in for a heap of trouble.

As to using troops to fight your battles, it is perfectly legit. Among your crew you will have a good number of armsmen and you could easily have a hired or house fighting force to command, with the barracks addon it can even be quite large. The fly in this ointment is that as the commander your role in a feudal society is to command. Which means you have to be with your troops. Failure to do this will have consequences. For instance it would probably kill crew moral, make it harder to hire more troops and the best troops probably would not work for you period.