Looking at some of the title card from wave 2, I cannot help but be a bit underwhelmed by the raider titles. They are cheap, but are they useful? Not as far as I can tell - they are geared only vs. fighters, which limits their utility. Too bad they didn't include a title card that could do something other than anti-squad.

Anyway. Anyone see any potential uses for these two cards?

Well I can't think of an application for either title other than anti fighter, so if you can't see value in having an anti squadron speciality you probably aren't going to be impressed, but....

I think Impetuous is the better one, and potentially really good. Add ruthless strategists, and use your command value of 1 to call in some hapless tie fighter, and you should be able to do heaps of damage - the tie fighters guns, 2 black dice to everything in arc, adding a damage with ruthless, and then a final two black dice from impetuous, again adding +1 damage from ruthless, you should be able to shred even rebel fighters fairly quickly, including the special ones. Just don't run out of tie fighters!

Instigator was the one I thought would be better, but it will usually be moving too fast to keep the enemy squadrons engaged. But it could be good to intercept a fighter ball, holding them in position for a crucial turn to guarantee you can fire all your black dice at them. Ruthless or ordnance experts would be good here, perhaps even with quad lasers!

The Impetuous idea was pretty good actually. If A) you plan on using plain TIEs as meat shields and B) already want to include a Raider in your fleet this is good synergy. Range is an issue though: I can see enemy fighters scurrying away from those black dice and strategists

Instigator is probably best with Ozzel, It could also be an interesting counter of sorts to Rogue squadrons. I.e. move in during the ship phase to screw up their squadron phase activation.

I can see enemy fighters scurrying away from those black dice and strategists

Not entirely on-topic, but it's interesting to note that Screed also works against squadrons - which, with both Raiders, 100% guarantees 1 damage (not a huge step up from 93% odds on the Raider-I, or 87.5% on the Raider-II, but certainty has value nonetheless). Combine that with Ruthless Strategists and Instigator, and you suddenly don't have to take risks anymore - the outcome is all but guaranteed one turn in advance.

I've got to agree there Ophion, both are situational but I had wagered Instigator was the one that was going to be more useful. But unless you're playing Ozzel (My ISD's aren't here yet, so I've been using VSD's) or Tarkin for the command token+dial, I've found the Raider comes in too hot and slings past any engagement that it might be useful in. And if you're using the TIE trap on its own, you're likely losing one command that you need to get everything up.

That said, the Impetuous with an Ordnance Experts and that seemingly pitiful Quad laser was far more irritating than I thought it would be in the last game I played. The token TIEs locked me down good and a double arc set up hurt Luke pretty bad

Here's a bit of a question, Instigator vs. Intel: Instigator says that “Enemy squadrons at distance 1 are treated as if they are engaged by 2 additional squadrons, even if they are not currently engaged”:Meanwhile, Intel says says something to the effect of (I'm going off a program, not a card in my hands) 'When an enemy squadron is at distance 1, it gains Heavy.' Given that the ship itself isn't a squadron, it merely conveys the effect, would the Instigator be a good choice to lock down Intel ships?

Yup. Instigator ignores both Grit and Intel

...and like I mentioned, Raiders move in the ship phase (I'm sure you all knew that :-P) so should be extra annoying for Rogue squadrons.

Yep, you can potentially get the jump on everyone except Han.

Nice, I knew it cancelled Grit but I wanted to be sure that Intel was going to get tucked away by that title. If a swarm of enemy attack craft are inbound, I'd prefer using that Raider as a blocking detail and having it blown to pieces, rather than letting a bomber swarm gnaw away on an ISD or something equally pricy. And given the footprint of a small ship base + distance 1 is ~ 190mm (7.5") by 226mm (8.75") measured from the card, the area of effect isn't insignificant. It's an expensive bulwark, but at 400 points it's still only 12-15% of a fleet, depending on upgrades.

Well the title plus ruthless or ordnance techs is only 8 points. You still have all the capability of the raider. If you also give it some ordnance it can be fairly multi role, depending on your admiral.

Not entirely on-topic, but it's interesting to note that Screed also works against squadrons - which, with both Raiders, 100% guarantees 1 damage (not a huge step up from 93% odds on the Raider-I, or 87.5% on the Raider-II, but certainty has value nonetheless). Combine that with Ruthless Strategists and Instigator, and you suddenly don't have to take risks anymore - the outcome is all but guaranteed one turn in advance.

"All too easy..."

I just had too!

"Everything is proceeding as I had foreseen..."

Impetuous with Ordnance Experts (only 8 points total, plus whatever other upgrade(s) you may wish to use) is statistically very close to "do 2 damage to all squadrons in one arc and then another one in any arc takes 2 more." Not an always upgrade like Demolisher, mind you, but a good way to spend 4 points towards the end of your fleet building.

Ruthless Strategists was mentioned earlier and I think I'd prefer using them (if ever) on a ship with longer reach on its flak. I don't think using it with TIE Fighters is a good idea, but I do like the idea of using it with TIE Bombers, as they'd really rather not be engaged and have the hull points to shed a few if it helps thin out fighters engaging them. 5 HP for 9 points seems pretty all right.

Yeah, I'd view impetuous like veteran captain. A nice to have bonus, that if it triggers even just once is nice. It doesn't change how you want to fly the ship, which better suits overload pulse or ACM/apt boats.

All this being said I've had some experience running raiders and had an opponent make the mistake of entering into a fighter engagement on the raiders trajectory. That little bugger did tremendous damage to his fighter stack and even tho I was outnumbered by 4 full stands that game I still won the squadron battle, largely thanks to the raiders ability to get somewhere quickly. The title would have been a big bonus for very cheap.

This little ship is born to be a support ship, I usually play it cheek-by-jowl with my ISDs and virtually always set a navigate command for it. The maneuverability afforded by this (including keeping a nav token on deck half the game) means the raider is a constant question mark for your opponent. I had one game where my rebel opponent managed to sneak a CR90 with 1 health remaining behind my ISD, I turned my raider on a dime and shot after him and rammed him dead and couldn't stop laughing.

I will definitely be trying lists with the raider titles and using the ship in reserve to support fighter swarms.

The 2 Raider loadouts I'm looking forward to trying are as follows:

Raider I

Instigator

Admiral Montferrat

Ordnance Experts

Expanded Launchers

70 points

This loadout is the more aggressive of the 2, intended to swoop in on a formation of squadrons, pin them down for a turn, then hit them hard the following turn before flying off. Admiral Montferrat ensures that incoming fire from the pinned squadrons is neutered (most squadrons only throw 1 die at ships, and would have to discard that die due to the target being obstructed), whilst also giving some protection against the fire of enemy ships (given that this is a fairly pricy target as far as Raiders go). The Expanded Launchers is an optional addition, but synergises well with the Ordnance Experts to allow this Raider to hit harder than a Gladiator out of a single arc, therefore allowing this ship to contribute even against ship only lists (or once the enemy fight threat is neutralised).

Raider II

Impetuous

Ruthless Strategists

Leading Shots

60 points

This Raider I see as slightly more "escorty", as it relies on the enemy squadrons coming into range, presumably to attack either the squadrons or ship that this is escorting. The general idea is that if your target formation isn't already engaged, you can use a squadron command to throw a bomber their way, then open up with your anti-squadron weaponry to cause at least 1 hit, and up to 3 hits (if at close range) on each enemy squadron (with one lucky squadron being singled out for attention twice!). If at close range, Leading Shots will protect against rolling 2 misses by allowing you to spend the blue die to reroll the black die, whilst also giving a boost to anti-ship firepower.

Admiral Montferrat ensures that incoming fire from the pinned squadrons is neutered (most squadrons only throw 1 die at ships, and would have to discard that die due to the target being obstructed)

Sadly, Montferrat only works "while defending against a ship".

Admiral Montferrat ensures that incoming fire from the pinned squadrons is neutered (most squadrons only throw 1 die at ships, and would have to discard that die due to the target being obstructed)

Sadly, Montferrat only works "while defending against a ship".

Dammit! Well, erm, other than that minor detail, it was an excellent plan

Swap Montferrat out for Quad Laser Turrets then I guess, and hope that having Counter 1 will dissuade the enemy bombers somewhat I guess

I'm not sure 1 blue die will do much to discourage a group of B-wings or TIE Bombers... it's a different matter against a group of squishy TIE Fighters/Interceptors (or, to a lesser extent, A-wings), who might find the blue-for-blue die trade isn't to their advantage at all - and who are now prevented from doing their actual job of chasing down your bombers.

Like I mentioned before, I suspect Instigator will turn out to be more effective against fighters than against bombers, with Impetuous better suited to quickly bringing down sturdier foes like bombers, escorts or the occasional troublesome ace.

I'm not sure 1 blue die will do much to discourage a group of B-wings or TIE Bombers... it's a different matter against a group of squishy TIE Fighters/Interceptors (or, to a lesser extent, A-wings), who might find the blue-for-blue die trade isn't to their advantage at all - and who are now prevented from doing their actual job of chasing down your bombers.

Like I mentioned before, I suspect Instigator will turn out to be more effective against fighters than against bombers, with Impetuous better suited to quickly bringing down sturdier foes like bombers, escorts or the occasional troublesome ace.

Completely agreed. Bombers will turn Instigator into nothing but cooling debris and spiralling crewmen corpses before the piddly 1 blue dice counter attack meaningfully affects them. Used solo, I think it's far better vs. fighters than bombers.

In an earlier thread on Raiders, I mentioned that I think if you're going to go hunting for bombers, having your Instigator accompanied by 2 Interceptors seems safer. The Instigator can engage them so that Intel and Grit cannot pry them free, and the Interceptors can throw a good number of blue dice at them while also using Swarm. Should the bombers counter-attack, you'll have Counter 2 with a reroll. Next turn, Instigator throws out all the black dice of flak it can and makes its getaway.

They all terrible so mail me all the raiders, so you suffer not with them.

Both titles are a bit of a let down.

The one that engages is bad on a ship that can only take six damage from one hullzone, and has no way of redirecting damage and the other title is a great way to sneak in what, an extra point and a half damage? Hard pass.

Then there's the two black die ani-squadron, better hope there's no names pilots around!

Or ships, which kill you at long range where you have no dice to shoot back or close range where you have no defense but a single brace and the hope you live long enough to use the only hull zone you have that's of any value.

Raiders are bad at destroying squadrons with their mere two dice, and bad at destroying ships with their short range and poor armaments. They also have four health and limited defensive capabilities. They're just a disappointment compared to everything else.

Instigator lets you move it and a squadron into engagement range and lock down multiple enemy squadrons that are forced to fire on the fighters before they can attack the Raider. With fighter cover it can prevent a bomber squadron from going for your other capital ships for a turn and will likely decimate a cloud of fighters.

Both titles are a bit of a let down.

The one that engages is bad on a ship that can only take six damage from one hullzone, and has no way of redirecting damage and the other title is a great way to sneak in what, an extra point and a half damage? Hard pass.

Then there's the two black die ani-squadron, better hope there's no names pilots around!

Or ships, which kill you at long range where you have no dice to shoot back or close range where you have no defense but a single brace and the hope you live long enough to use the only hull zone you have that's of any value.

Raiders are bad at destroying squadrons with their mere two dice, and bad at destroying ships with their short range and poor armaments. They also have four health and limited defensive capabilities. They're just a disappointment compared to everything else.

Even if you're not very creative, at the very least they're a faster, bendier, and cheaper platform for the current Screed/ACM nonsense. If you want to look past wave 1, you might also notice that Ordnance Experts gives the R-1 almost guaranteed 2 damage against every fighter they shoot at. Or that 4 of them with APT and Screed could conceivably take down an MC80 with full shields in one round. Or that the Empire now has the most maneuverable ship in the game, that can literally orbit a fighter furball without a nav command and pour black dice into it.

Or that you can kit them with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, and support with Vader for two blue dice and FOUR, DOUBLE-rerollable black dice out the front... for 61 points each. And oh by the way they're still amazing against fighters too: thanks, rerollable double black anti-squadron dice!

If you're running Instigator, you run it in conjunction with a fighter that's built to take punishment--Vader, maybe, or Boba--and fly the two of them into the middle of the other guy's cloud of bombers. Bam, those bombers are all engaged, all have to shoot at that fighter first, can't be released by either Intel or Grit, and oh by the way are taking double blacks across the board every round. And who knows, maybe you spent the four points to reroll them all.

If you're running Impetuous, enhance those anti squadron shots with something. Ordnance Experts on the R-1, Point Defense Reroute and maybe Ruthless Strategists on the R-2.

The Raider is an amazingly flexible tool, and as an almost exclusively Rebel player, I fear it when I see it. One advantage you may not immediately recognize from the other side of the table: I consider a Raider at close range to be a mandatory kill. Sure, taking a side arc from an AF2 and 3 B-wings might (*might!*) kill it in one turn... But that's a whole turn that I'm not able to spend shooting that ISD barreling down on me from behind it. And what did it cost you, 50, 55 points?

Don't underestimate it because it's dinky. I've had people doing that with my CR90B's for months, and they pay the durasteel price for it. This little guy is bendier, just as resilient, and hits much harder than those.

Both titles are a bit of a let down.

The one that engages is bad on a ship that can only take six damage from one hullzone, and has no way of redirecting damage and the other title is a great way to sneak in what, an extra point and a half damage? Hard pass.

Then there's the two black die ani-squadron, better hope there's no names pilots around!

Or ships, which kill you at long range where you have no dice to shoot back or close range where you have no defense but a single brace and the hope you live long enough to use the only hull zone you have that's of any value.

Raiders are bad at destroying squadrons with their mere two dice, and bad at destroying ships with their short range and poor armaments. They also have four health and limited defensive capabilities. They're just a disappointment compared to everything else.

Poor armaments? Limited defensive capabilities? Bad at destroying squadrons? I strongly suspect that you haven't tried flying one (or against one) yet, because these are not the words of one who has seen Raiders raiding.

Even if you're not very creative, at the very least they're a faster, bendier, and cheaper platform for the current Screed/ACM nonsense. If you want to look past wave 1, you might also notice that Ordnance Experts gives the R-1 almost guaranteed 2 damage against every fighter they shoot at. Or that 4 of them with APT and Screed could conceivably take down an MC80 with full shields in one round. Or that the Empire now has the most maneuverable ship in the game, that can literally orbit a fighter furball without a nav command and pour black dice into it.

Or that you can kit them with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, and support with Vader for two blue dice and FOUR, DOUBLE-rerollable black dice out the front... for 61 points each. And oh by the way they're still amazing against fighters too: thanks, rerollable double black anti-squadron dice!

If you're running Instigator, you run it in conjunction with a fighter that's built to take punishment--Vader, maybe, or Boba--and fly the two of them into the middle of the other guy's cloud of bombers. Bam, those bombers are all engaged, all have to shoot at that fighter first, can't be released by either Intel or Grit, and oh by the way are taking double blacks across the board every round. And who knows, maybe you spent the four points to reroll them all.

If you're running Impetuous, enhance those anti squadron shots with something. Ordnance Experts on the R-1, Point Defense Reroute and maybe Ruthless Strategists on the R-2.

The Raider is an amazingly flexible tool, and as an almost exclusively Rebel player, I fear it when I see it. One advantage you may not immediately recognize from the other side of the table: I consider a Raider at close range to be a mandatory kill. Sure, taking a side arc from an AF2 and 3 B-wings might (*might!*) kill it in one turn... But that's a whole turn that I'm not able to spend shooting that ISD barreling down on me from behind it. And what did it cost you, 50, 55 points?

Don't underestimate it because it's dinky. I've had people doing that with my CR90B's for months, and they pay the durasteel price for it. This little guy is bendier, just as resilient, and hits much harder than those.

You, I like you.