Buying into 40K is the equivalent to starting down the path to the Dark Side...forever it will dominate you.

Figure per figure, X Wing and Armada are more expensive. But the catch is that you need many more models to play a game of 40K.

But for something like BFG where you only need ten or twelve ships per side (and a lot of them will be small escort ships) it's a much closer comparison.

My Comparison would be:

Baseset Warhammer 40k: 85€

Small Expansion (single model): 21-25€
Medium Expansion (5-10 Models): 35€
Premium Expansion (large Model): 45-60€

Still need: Codex 39€

Comes in Handy: Ruler 1€, Dice 1€

Baseset Armada: 90€
Small Expansion (tiny model prepainted, or a lot very tiny not prepainted): 19€
Medium Expansion (small-medium Model prepainted): 28-35€
Premium Expansion (medium-large Model prepainted): 43€

Still need: -
Comes in Handy: Ruler 8€, Dice 13€

Sure you could want MORE for 40k, but you also do for Armada. And then again, you could just play Mortheim with is great and you only need 5 modells for about 30€.

You all keep telling me, that GW is expensive, but is it anymore expensive than FFG stuff?

Figure per figure, X Wing and Armada are more expensive. But the catch is that you need many more models to play a game of 40K.

But for something like BFG where you only need ten or twelve ships per side (and a lot of them will be small escort ships) it's a much closer comparison.

Once, I believed as you did. Lo' I have seen the new releases, and damnation lies that way.

Seriously, character models can easily reach Armada capital ship prices. A single 28mm regular sized HQ/Lord choice was $1 less than an ISD for me, let alone the 'grand centerpiece' characters. At regular prices, X-wing is less expensive than a fair bit of the 'medium' sized stuff out there, which is on par with Armada medium ships. And before anyone says 'well how many character models do you need', how many ISD do you need? The answer is usually the same.

It depends what the composition of your forces are. Model for model means nothing when there's such an enormous disparity within the systems themselves. If I used a lot of squadrons/guardsmen (and I do) it raises the model count and skews the numbers.

BFG was quite a bit closer, but it's really almost on par with X-wing for a price point about 10 years ago. 2 cruisers cost $25 when they were available in store (it was a good deal), and a single light metal cruiser was about $18. Toss in a Grand cruiser or a battleship, there's your large sized X-wing ship. Only escorts were notably less expensive model per dollar compared to X-wing, and they're still more than Armada's fighter equivalent.

D503 isn't exaggerating in my case either, the shelves (and storage) I have for WFB and 40K cost more than I've spent on Armada too.

Post Scriptum: And I'm using Cnd pricing (which makes a difference, again, perspective), when you get to Aussiland or Middle Earth, the differences are even bigger.

My biggest problem with GW is that they brought out many products which suddenly weren't supported any longer ... so your time and money you invested is wasted.

Yeah you still own the minis - you can hold them, pet them and put them back to the shelf ... you can even use them in other games ... but thats not what I hat in mind initially.

So it would be my biggest fear that when I pick up anything new from GW that it isn't longer supported like 2 years later ...

However, you can not think any compnay will support a game thats not making enough profit.

Good games sell.

Good games sell.

But not forever.

Mortheim, BFG and other were good games. But the market was not ready for some of them.

But how much is enough? GW slashed and burned every single line it had except 40K (and its hobby line) then introduced Age of Sigmar. FFG, meanwhile, has how many supported and available products? They can't all be as profitable as X-wing. And yes, I understand the nature of the business, franchise license, and time things, but the point remains that they didn't dump support for everything else in favour of X-wing just because it generates the most revenue.

I started with Deathwatch (alright, technically I started with Dragonstar years and years ago, before I ever knew who FFG was. It turns out I can still get Dragonstar stuff, and that was conversion material for D&D 3.0), then got into X-wing, Dark Heresy, and Armada. Now I'm dipping my toes into Decent, Edge of the Empire, End of the World, Imperial Assault, WFRP, and Only War. Hookt on FFG werked 4 mee!

Specialist games were the proverbial gateway drug. They may still fill that role again if this is handled properly. Like Forgottenlore rightly said, if it's done with the same care and methods that Forgeworld currently displays, that's very likely a good sign. If not... well, we'll see where it all ends up.

Good games sell.

But not forever.

Mortheim, BFG and other were good games. But the market was not ready for some of them.

Of course. Blame the market for GWs inability.

However, you can not think any compnay will support a game thats not making enough profit.

So they f### it up and call it AoS, where SiegheilMarines made from Sigmarite (it's like space wolfs wolfishly wolfing)

Storm things stormingly using stormcast stormhammers stormshields and stormDerp.

Nah, GW just fired the people who were GAMERS themselves.

And that's the reason they fail.

hopefully FFG would never fall in that pit.

Warpman - I agree, the problem with bringing back specialist games now is that they lost all their good designers (and plain fell out with a few of them)

The guys who made space hulk, necromunda, warmaster, blood bowl. They're all off making new games now with competitors.

Are they just going hash out (again) the same games from 1980 something with a few new models and new art?..

Well, telling the truth, I've been looking at Armada as a "basis" for homemade 0k fleet.

The system is fine, building ships is fun and making on-par-level-ship-cards is no problem for me.

So I'm planning on spending lonely winter evenings with plastic and hobby knife.

GWs attempts to make frankensteins monster out of BFG carcass. No way am I going to step into their pile of "brilliant miniatures" and dumb ever changing rules again.

Good games sell.

But not forever.

Mortheim, BFG and other were good games. But the market was not ready for some of them.

Of course. Blame the market for GWs inability.

Wait, are you saying there was a market for fleet games back then? BFG was a nice game, but of course its GW faults that they had to scrap it after ... what 8 years?

But how much is enough? GW slashed and burned every single line it had except 40K (and its hobby line) then introduced Age of Sigmar. FFG, meanwhile, has how many supported and available products? They can't all be as profitable as X-wing. And yes, I understand the nature of the business, franchise license, and time things, but the point remains that they didn't dump support for everything else in favour of X-wing just because it generates the most revenue.

How long has FFG supported this games and how long did GW support them?

However, you can not think any compnay will support a game thats not making enough profit.

So they f### it up and call it AoS, where SiegheilMarines made from Sigmarite (it's like space wolfs wolfishly wolfing)

Storm things stormingly using stormcast stormhammers stormshields and stormDerp.

Nah, GW just fired the people who were GAMERS themselves.

And that's the reason they fail.

hopefully FFG would never fall in that pit.

Sorry but Age of Sigmar ist actually a quite good reboot. While Fantasy was pretty bad in the end.

However, you can not think any compnay will support a game thats not making enough profit.

So they f### it up and call it AoS, where SiegheilMarines made from Sigmarite (it's like space wolfs wolfishly wolfing)

Storm things stormingly using stormcast stormhammers stormshields and stormDerp.

Nah, GW just fired the people who were GAMERS themselves.

And that's the reason they fail.

hopefully FFG would never fall in that pit.

Sorry but Age of Sigmar ist actually a quite good reboot. While Fantasy was pretty bad in the end.

I tried to get behind it. Still waiting for official rules clarifications and means for at least half-way balanced games - without using any forms of social balancing. Until then I won't touch it again.

-shrugs- your opinion is your own DScipio. Neither side of that 'good vs. bad' is objective fact. How long for BFG, as in actual support or life support? Real support, I'd say about five years, then seven more where the models could be occasionally purchased online and that was the limit of their involvement.

I'm not going to get into the AoS thing too much, because it makes me miserable. I'll make it short: from lore to the gameplay, AoS it's not for me. If this was its own product, it would be a solid meh, but I'd be fine because it's a choice other gamers can make. I'd just keep on playing 8E. But the way AoS was implemented, championed, and supported, made the whole mess a betrayal on par with Isvaan III. You're going to get an emotional response because people like me made an emotional investment in the game in addition to a substantial financial one.

Ugh, this is why I don't like discussing GW beyond a few neat lore bits. It's a setting I like a lot, but the corporate aspect of its management and policies have sucked the joy out of so many facets for me, that I can't help but be a bitter, cynical, but nostalgic rat. Remember the Battle for Nuln report? The combined Campaign for Armageddon? -sighs- good times, good times.

Anyhow, congratulations to Games Workshop for coming around to supporting some additional variety within their setting. I hope they are able to recapture the flair that a lot of their titles were able to impart to a generation of gamers like myself. I pray that they do not betray the trust, hope, and good-will that those properties still hold in the wargaming community. I may still have misgivings, I may still have issues, and I may still be petty, but I also look at those games quite fondly. I would love to be proven wrong and have Specialist Games lines reemerge as enriching and long term partners in the Dark Future and Old World settings.

And now, back to Armada.

Good games sell.

But not forever.

Mortheim, BFG and other were good games. But the market was not ready for some of them.

Of course. Blame the market for GWs inability.

Wait, are you saying there was a market for fleet games back then? BFG was a nice game, but of course its GW faults that they had to scrap it after ... what 8 years?

Ah yes ... and today there IS a market all of a sudden. What do you think 'markets' come from? Markets are made! With the right arguments, effort and support you could have created a market for fleet games back in stone age.

Good games sell.

But not forever.

Mortheim, BFG and other were good games. But the market was not ready for some of them.

Of course. Blame the market for GWs inability.

Wait, are you saying there was a market for fleet games back then? BFG was a nice game, but of course its GW faults that they had to scrap it after ... what 8 years?

Ah yes ... and today there IS a market all of a sudden. What do you think 'markets' come from? Markets are made! With the right arguments, effort and support you could have created a market for fleet games back in stone age.

You did notice that the market for miniatures games is totally different now than it was 5/10/15 years ago? Markets are made, but you cant sell luxury items anywhere.

Remember as well

This New Department, for Specialist Games, is being set up UNDER FORGEWORLD

Not Games Workshop and Jervis Johnson. He's heading the GW Team.

Being UNDER FORGEWORLD, this should hopefully mean it will be slaved to FORGEWORLD design philosophy, which, generally gives the artists, designers and writers more freedom to do what they feel like, and what they feel is cool...

However, this does mean that releases are much slower, as they are often dabbling in many things at once, with -occasionally- no overarching design direction. It won't be slaved to GW's main Weekly Release schedule. So those freaking out about GW and Age of Sigmar - that's not the people working on this.

However, it does lend it that they will be potentially be part of a premium product range. Forgeworld can and has dabbled in Plastic before, and may continue, but most of their product is resin and premium hardcover books.

It won't be Expensive Games Workshop plastics.
It will be Expensive Forgeworld anything.

Both Epic Space Marine and Man-o-war were near perfect systems that did not break down as you created larger and larger armies. Epic was scrapped and reworked... Twice to be more like 40K, Man-o-war was scrapped, because the miniatures were too small and took up too much of the miniatures divisions resources. 40k has been scrapped and reworked so many times, that I don't think GW even knows exactly what incarnation they are on without looking it up. Entire army lists have just disappeared. Squats anyone?

BTW, I remember GW tried this reorganization before. Somewhere in the mid 90s before BFG came out. Dont trust them.

Warpman - I agree, the problem with bringing back specialist games now is that they lost all their good designers (and plain fell out with a few of them)

The guys who made space hulk, necromunda, warmaster, blood bowl. They're all off making new games now with competitors.

Interestingly, the guy who created Blood Bowl is Jervis Johnson, great guy from all accounts. But the people who made BB the amazingly deep yet well balanced game with air-tight rules the game that it is today were players drawn from the BB community (the BBRC, or blood bowl rules committee). When GW made 4th Edition BB themselves, it was such a crap show that almost immediately they recruited the BBRC and started to work on a new 5th Edition. LRB5 enjoyed a much better reception and then was culminated in the sixth edition LRB6/CRP that is what we currently have now, being the last publication before GW burned its bridges with the BBRC and then stopped supporting BB.

Of course, GW being GW, right before LRB6 was published in 2010 as an online PDF they disbanded the BBRC who did all the work to create it, stripped the pictures and fluff out of the document and removed the three new teams that had already been approved as fun, fair, and balanced because GW didn't make official BB models for them. They called it the CRP (competition rules pack), publishing it without any mention of the BBRC members in its acknowledgements or credits who had done all most of the work to create it and save the game from GW's own vision of it.

So, in some sense, GW never made a good BB game, even with the lovable Jervis Johnson at the helm who had great concepts but not the best mechanics or rules. BB was made into a stellar game by a dedicated committee of players, many who are still active in the BB community. Of course, I'm pretty sure GW has sufficiently burned all of their bridges with those fine folks, classic Grandma Wendy (GW) acting like Grandma Wendy.

Wait, are you saying there was a market for fleet games back then? BFG was a nice game, but of course its GW faults that they had to scrap it after ... what 8 years

Absolutely there was a market back then. Most of the specialist games so,s well enough that any other game company would gave considered them a runaway success. They only sold poorly when compared to the 2 warhammers, so GW dropped any support for them. Epic and BB especially have supported thriving communities continuously since the day GW dropped them.

Then, of course, there is the holistic issue. GW, by having all these assorted games set in their own universe, created a whole game ecology that fed itself. Even if the assorted specialist games didn't sell as well individually as 40k and fantasy did, they supported and reinforced those games. It was the existence of those games, combined with the core games, that allowed GW to brand itself as a hobby in and of itself and not get laughed out of business. It was also their possession of this large assortment of different types of games that made them dominant in the market and prevented and competition from getting a foothold. Once they stopped supporting all the specialist games they created opportunities for competitors to step in and fill the void that GW left.

Remember as well

This New Department, for Specialist Games, is being set up UNDER FORGEWORLD

Is it?

The initial FB announcement sounded more like FW was going to be moved under this new department, and the in app announcement didn't mention FW at all.

Or was there more news overnight that I haven't heard yet?

I love Mordheim and Blood Bowl but otherwise don't care about GW at all.