Imperial Forces Structure

By RebelDave, in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG

.......SWAT cops wear the baklava to hide their identities making them more terrifying.

They do? Typically worn due to the material they are made of - warmth when it is cold or to prevent slight burns from the various munitions that could get tossed. Or I could be wrong so I should stop wearing mine when scooping snow since I might be "terrifying" the neighbors? :) To be fair some probably do wear them to cloak their identity when they must enter a residence of unpleasant people. But, it's not to be "more terrifying".

I suppose it depends on which side of the balaclava you wind up on. I'd argue plenty of studies out there about how humans respond to things with faces and things without but it's probably not worth it for a comment I tossed in for color.

You first said SWAT cops wear them to hide their identities as if their intended purpose was to terrify, comparing to faceless Stormtroopers. You then changed the goal posts to how they could be perceived as scary. I actually agree with that. That wasn't what you first said. I added my post since I'm one of those people that dress that way sometimes and it has nothing at all to do with wanting to terrify people. I put in a :) and even some humor in my response trying to keep it light hearted while simply specifying the real reasons behind wearing a balaclava since false rumors can and do cause problems in my career.

Actually it is both in the case of SWAT. The masks hide their identity and do make the faceless beings more frightening. The need to hide their faces is to make it harder to be identified in case the people they are taking down have friends that would take issue with the officers elsewhere.

The use of stormtroopers in the shows like Rebels and Clone Wars is because you can stamp out 100 clones of the same 3D model and be done with it. If they had faces visible, then it is harder to just reuse the same model over and over. Look at the various bridge crews they do have. The hats on the few guys they've had talking are pulled down so low that the eyes are just gone from the character. So, whether you think of the stormies as a separate branch or the same as the Army isn't the reason for their use in the shows, but for being "iconic" and easy to animate.

.......SWAT cops wear the baklava to hide their identities making them more terrifying.

They do? Typically worn due to the material they are made of - warmth when it is cold or to prevent slight burns from the various munitions that could get tossed. Or I could be wrong so I should stop wearing mine when scooping snow since I might be "terrifying" the neighbors? :) To be fair some probably do wear them to cloak their identity when they must enter a residence of unpleasant people. But, it's not to be "more terrifying".

I suppose it depends on which side of the balaclava you wind up on. I'd argue plenty of studies out there about how humans respond to things with faces and things without but it's probably not worth it for a comment I tossed in for color.

You first said SWAT cops wear them to hide their identities as if their intended purpose was to terrify, comparing to faceless Stormtroopers. You then changed the goal posts to how they could be perceived as scary. I actually agree with that. That wasn't what you first said. I added my post since I'm one of those people that dress that way sometimes and it has nothing at all to do with wanting to terrify people. I put in a :) and even some humor in my response trying to keep it light hearted while simply specifying the real reasons behind wearing a balaclava since false rumors can and do cause problems in my career.

Ever hear of "deindividuation"? Taking away the face makes them into a faceless mass of monsters. We identify others by their faces, there is a whole area of the brain dedicated to it, the fusiform gyrus . If the area fails to see a face we have a hard time seeing them as human. It's also why we see human qualities in some animals and not others. Those with an almost human face are people to us while those without are monsters. So what our brain figures is we are dealing with either monsters or maybe armed robots... I suppose that depends on the individual. That's why stormtroopers wear full face masks and if the police don't wear masks for the same reason then why not wear helmets with clear plastic face protection?

There are plenty of studies out there that look at how humans identify others and the effect of that identification on their reactions. Also there are some people with experience willing to talk about the effect of para-militarization of police. This one was quite interesting:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/08/how-militarizing-police-can-increase-violence.html#

Gil Kerlikowske, the head of U.S. Customs and Border Protection and former police chief of Seattle, drew out this distinction in a striking recent interview with NPR’s Steve Inskeep . He explained that at the one-year anniversary of the damaging 1999 World Trade Organization riots, he took conscious steps to have his officers dressed like police rather than a counterinsurgency unit, which he said made it easier to deal with potentially dangerous crowds. But the police guild didn’t approve of this approach — its members wanted him to give the officers as much armor as possible.

INSKEEP: Kerlikowski paid attention [to the guild]. Though he came to wish he hadn't. The next time there were troublesome crowds it was Mardi Gras. Police did not go out in soft gear, they went out heavily protected. So, the cops felt safer but somehow the crowd became harder to control. Scores of people were injured as violence spread. Women were sexually assaulted. One man was killed as police watched.

KERLIKOWSKI: Well, to tell you the truth it makes it pretty difficult when you're talking from behind a face shield with a gas mask, to engage with the public and say, look let's tone this down, let's calm things down, let's make sure that those people that need to be apprehended are arrested because of their intoxicated state, their level of violence etc. It's pretty hard to engage in those discussions when you're hardened up. I regret that - today. I should've stuck by my decision earlier, I didn't.

Kerlikowski, Haberfeld, and other law enforcement seem to have developed an intuitive understanding of the psychological effects of police militarization. But that may not matter, because all this surplus military gear isn’t going away — $450 million of it was distributed to police in 2013 alone . So even after things calm down in Ferguson, we’ll still be in the midst of a sweeping, potentially dangerous experiment in social psychology and criminology.

.......SWAT cops wear the baklava to hide their identities making them more terrifying.

They do? Typically worn due to the material they are made of - warmth when it is cold or to prevent slight burns from the various munitions that could get tossed. Or I could be wrong so I should stop wearing mine when scooping snow since I might be "terrifying" the neighbors? :) To be fair some probably do wear them to cloak their identity when they must enter a residence of unpleasant people. But, it's not to be "more terrifying".

I suppose it depends on which side of the balaclava you wind up on. I'd argue plenty of studies out there about how humans respond to things with faces and things without but it's probably not worth it for a comment I tossed in for color.

You first said SWAT cops wear them to hide their identities as if their intended purpose was to terrify, comparing to faceless Stormtroopers. You then changed the goal posts to how they could be perceived as scary. I actually agree with that. That wasn't what you first said. I added my post since I'm one of those people that dress that way sometimes and it has nothing at all to do with wanting to terrify people. I put in a :) and even some humor in my response trying to keep it light hearted while simply specifying the real reasons behind wearing a balaclava since false rumors can and do cause problems in my career.

OP here's a link for the WEG Imperial Sourcebook in PDF: http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/WEG40092.pdf

Page 82+ may have what you want.

I suspect when they put skulls on the balaclava it is to add terror. Because terror causes people to freeze up and perform poorly. Which when people are shooting at you is probably a good thing.

I was thinking last night after I got offline about this and I realized the situation we find in our own world where police are becoming paramilitary organizations is a great example of the point I was making. Now I'm not sure it applies to the rest of our world in method but I suspect it happened in much the same way as in the States. So if you are from a nation that had their police turn into a paramilitary force in some other way or where it always was one don't get your panties in a bunch.

For those of you across the pond, here in the US what has happened is the US Military either sells at discount prices or simply gives it's surplus gear to police departments. They get body armor, weapons and the infamous balaclavas from the military, thus the reason a SWAT cop on a "dynamic entry" looks a lot like the guys from Seal Team Six. Since the police, like any other government department, are always complaining about needing more money the discounted or free stuff is happily accepted. Since they don't want to look like hobos wearing cast offs they go with basic black since it goes with everything,

Now, in the Empire, many of the planetary forces are underfunded as well, especially when they are called upon to enforce the Emperors will as well as local laws. After all, the Empire is taxing the bejesus out of the planets so they have to cut back everywhere. So in order to keep their police on the beat and protected from the disgruntled citizens they happily accept the Empire's cast offs and hand me downs. So their beat cops look a lot like Imperial Storm Troopers, right down to the hide identity and increase terror helmets with face protection. Everybody wins. Local police get good gear while not breaking the bank and the Emperor gets to project the image that the Empire is everywhere.

So the result is those bucket heads looking for droids on Tatooine were for the most just local boys wearing surplus armor that probably had cooling gear that they were happy to get. When they got a hit on the BOLO they called in the SWAT boys to bring the big guns and try to stop that smuggler they've been having trouble with from getting off-world.

This also is an opportunity to get an idea of what the typical stormtrooper is like for those of us who want to play at a higher level beyond what we get on an X-Box. After all, not every trooper joined up with the dream of blowing a planet home to billions of sentients into an asteroid field. You have to think a few of those troopers may have called Alderaan home and had to deal with the repercussions of being a part to murdering their own family. However if they were anything like my family it may not have been such a burden. To never have to deal with my mother's "You should have gone to college and studied computers." line again would be nice. But I digress.

Here in our world the police are called to enforce laws that their local municipal governments didn't pass. In many of those cases the laws they enforce are either direct federal mandates or the result of federal manipulations. Very similar to what many planetary police forces must face, enforcing edicts from the Emperor that may run in deep opposition to what the people of their world, and they themselves, think and feel. They may not like it, but after a lifetime in law enforcement what are they to do. They may even tell themselves they are trying to change the system from within, but how can they really do that? At what point do they stop enforcing those edicts and make their stand? What is the mindset of a local cop wearing the armor and carrying the gear of the military being ordered to enforce a law that runs against his own moral code?

So, to our SWAT team member, for those of us who want to understand that mindset explain how you would feel and what you would do if you found yourself in that kind of situation where a Federal mandate conflicts with your personal beliefs and you are called upon to enforce what is in effect the will of a President you may not have voted for and may even find to be a reprehensible human being for his or her stand on certain issues. You probably will never be called upon to participate in the murder of millions of people, but you are wearing the armor and carrying the weapons of those who very well may. How does that feel?

Before the walls of text I had already agreed they CAN cause fear. My response was against the supposed police intention of wearing them to purposely cause fear. Please re-read my posts.

I apologize for helping derail the OP and causing the wall of text to be created above simply because I chose to explain SWAT, in my experience, aren't wearing balaclava's to terrorize (there are other reasons for them). Apparently others believe they have better information then I do and telling them otherwise won't change any minds and will just create more walls of text.

Carry on with the OP.

ETA: If anyone still wishes to discuss this derailment please send me a direct message.

Edited by Sturn

The "wall of text" is in line with the OP. We are discussing why there are so darned many bucket heads running around when it says they are the elite shock troops of the Empire. I am endeavoring to explain that in a creative way that lines up the movies with the books without simply saying "it's Spielberg".

I also am looking to develop more depth to the bucketheads in my campaign and I only served in the military, never spent time as a cop. Many of the bucketheads our players may encounter would be these local police who have been militarized by the Empire. That seems to be a similarity to our real world and as I have offered my views having been an infantryman I was wondering about your views as a cop.

If I have somehow offended you, I really don't care. You don't have a right to not be offended any more than I do.

ETA: If anyone still wishes to discuss this derailment please send me a direct message.

So in order to keep their police on the beat and protected from the disgruntled citizens they happily accept the Empire's cast offs and hand me downs. So their beat cops look a lot like Imperial Storm Troopers, right down to the hide identity and increase terror helmets with face protection. Everybody wins. Local police get good gear while not breaking the bank and the Emperor gets to project the image that the Empire is everywhere.

So the result is those bucket heads looking for droids on Tatooine were for the most just local boys wearing surplus armor that probably had cooling gear that they were happy to get.

Obviously, you're free to interpret what you see and read of the SW universe any way you like, but this goes against pretty much any official informational source we've got.

Far more likely, the STs you see in Mos Eisley in ANH are part of the Devastator 's complement of troops, and seeing as it was Vader's ride at the time, it's more than likely that it was a portion of the 501st.

Think about it: Vader tracks down the Tantive IV , boards, wipes out everyone and takes the princess captive. The Imperials realize that the plans they're after...plans to the biggest, most powerful battle station ever built to their knowledge...are in a droid on this backwater desert planet. They track the trajectory of the escape pod and just like any other missing persons search, they create a search pattern and area where the droids might have gone. Their task is somewhat simplified due to the remote nature of the area, and it's pretty much down to a few homesteads, Jawas, sand people, and Mos Eisley.

Realizing that the Rebels would eventually need to get the plans back on their way to be of any use, Mos Eisley becomes the center of the search, being the bottleneck where the plans must go in order to get back offworld. As such, the majority of the Imperial force goes there, establishing check points, conducting door to door searches, patrolling various businesses and generally looking for any droids that fit the description they had.

There was an Imperial prefect stationed on Tatooine (at Mos Eisley) at the time, but there's no suggestion that he had anywhere near the manpower to conduct a search like we see in the film. More to the point, in all of the other times we see Tatooine on screen, we never see even one sign of imperial (or republic) presence anywhere. It's even indicated pretty overtly that there is no such presence, and that aside from Hutt justice, laws are fairly non-existent on the planet, which jives with most other sources we have on the nature of the rimward edges of the outer rim.

While a complement of elite shock troops might not have been the ideal choice for such a task, it was the best balance of sufficient amount of personnel with sufficient training, and most importantly, it was what Vader had at his disposal at the time. Waiting around in orbit with 2 ISDs while II or ISB scrambled a search team from the nearest Ubiqtorate base would have been a great way to give any as-yet-unidentified rebels plenty of time to not only get the plans offworld, but to make who-knows-how-many copies of the plans, making Vader's task nearly impossible.

Back to the original point, the stormtrooper legions are meant to be a highly visible, highly recognizable instrument of the emperor's will. While they're part of the military structure, they're also distinctly set apart from the rank and file army and navy troops. Capable of serving a wide variety of roles, from the basic infantry implementation we see on the ground at Hoth and Endor (keeping in mind that at Hoth, they were Vader's troops, and at Endor, with Vader and Palpatine present, and guarding the protection for the DS2 they'd naturally have "high end" troops in place) to the more specialized stuff like the door to door searches.. In contrast, we see the Imperial Army typically employed in a more straightforward military combat application. They aren't meant to be a highly visible imperial symbol like the stormtroopers, who the average citizen looks at and instantly is reminded of how the Emperor is watching (out for) them at all times.

Again, I'd draw the parallel between the SW universe stormtroopers, and the SS of nazi Germany, where not only did they present a formidable fighting force as a military presence, but they were also the ubiquitous symbol of the third reich among the citizenry, simultaneously projecting an image of domestic security and pervasive control, with the underlying fear that went along with all of that.

As I've said before, I once was on the side of Stormtroopers are the elite forces of the Empire and Army Troopers are the standard troops. My arguments included movie observations of: 1) We see Army Troopers in the AT-ST on Endor, 2) we see an Army General leading the attack on Hoth in a similar uniform, 3) we don't see Army Troopers on screen since we are always following the troops directly under command of Vader and the Emperor, thus only the elite ones. Discussions of this repeated topic at this forum have reversed my opinion: 1) We never see Army Troopers on screen because there aren't any, 2) The shock troops of the Empire are the Stormtroopers, who are elite, 3) The mook defensive troopers of the Empire are the black-garbed troopers we see on the DS, Star Destroyers, and Endor, 4) The AT-ST drivers are just that.

ETA: I prefer movie canon far above any other canon. I understand that others may have a far different view of source materials and if it offends you that I typically stick only with movie canon then don't be angry, to each his own.

Olive Uniforms: Command Staff

Cream Uniforms: ISB.

Black Uniforms: Fighting forces. Security Guards, Fighter pilots, Gunners. Black dress/garrison uniforms. Reflective Stormtrooper armor is white with the black jump suit predominantly unseen underneath.

Grey Uniforms: Support. Technicians, vehicle crew, medics, command support, etc.

Edited by Sturn

As with all personal interpretation that goes on in this kind of situation, you should absolutely feel free to buy into whatever half-baked fan theory you like, even if it's wrong. That being said, I think you also owe it to anyone reading to explain that you're getting to your interpretation by specifically only accepting a very narrow slice of available source information, essentially sherry picking only the sources that don't directly invalidate the theory, and then taking that evidence and applying very, very oblique logic to justify an opinion that is easily disproved with a simple trip to Wookieepedia.

Doesn't mean you're not allowed to have that opinion, just that you should also have the decency to not present it in a way as to confuse anyone else on the matter. I personally refuse to consider the Vong as having existed at all, but you can betyour YT-1300 that if I were involved in a discussion that concerned them, I'd state it as my opinion, not just by saying, "The Vong never happened." and only if asked admitting that I came to that conclusion based on a couple of other fans on a message board.

Having the opinion that the Imperial Army, as it exists in all reference material, does not exist is less plausible than the theory that Jar Jar is a Sith mastermind.

I was on board with the logic of your first post Hydrospanner. But, I don't think the anger of your second post is justified since someone has a different take on source material (obviously I thought) and didn't blatantly state it (actually I kinda did)*. I went ahead and edited my post to add what sources I personally find the most relevant. I hope that helps.

As with all personal interpretation that goes on in this kind of situation, you should absolutely feel free to buy into whatever half-baked fan theory you like, even if it's wrong.

We are fine to have our personal interpretations, even if "half-baked", and "wrong"? Thanks.

Having the opinion that the Imperial Army, as it exists in all reference material, does not exist is less plausible than the theory that Jar Jar is a Sith mastermind.

ALL reference material? The highest form of reference materials are the movies. Where is the, "Army" in the movies? WEG, who created the Imperial Army Trooper, saw General Veers and a couple AT-ST pilots and created an entire military branch out of them. I think we are all aware of how this spawned the many future references throughout canon below the movie level. It shouldn't need to be re-said every time this discussion is launched? Some of us just prefer a different interpretation of what is seen, and not seen (never see something identified as an Army Trooper, even once) on screen and others shouldn't call their theories, "half-baked" or "wrong" simply because they didn't specify what sources they were using.

*Actually, looking at my post again, I did kinda point out my source when I said, "My arguments included MOVIE observations of". I then went on to clearly state my personal "opinion". If you are going to reply, angrily, to someone's post please don't skim.

Having the opinion that the Imperial Army, as it exists in all reference material, does not exist is less plausible than the theory that Jar Jar is a Sith mastermind.

I don't think I can name anyone who actually, seriously, believes Jar Jar is a Sith Lord. It's a fun, fan, discussion. How many RPG campaigns do you think have actually been run with Jar Jar as a Sith Lord? Compare that to the number of RPG campaigns and fans that don't include Imperial Army Troopers in their list of things that exist. Going by past discussions on this forum I don't think 50/50 would be far off. There were quite a few people with a differing opinion when I used to be on the "for" side of Imperial Army Troopers.

Do we all need to go buy Star Wars Battlefront tomorrow and kill hordes of Rebels or Stormtroopers to vent a little bit? :)

ETA: I apologize for adding my own wall of text. :)

Edited by Sturn

Something else to keep in mind about force numbers is that during wartime the numbers within units will change based on operations, casualties, etc. so I wouldn't get too concerned if you plan a scenario and need to have 40 Stormtroopers rather than the "correct" number. That level of detail isn't likely going to matter beyond giving the Player's a rough estimate of how many opponents they may have to encounter. As for those base number I'll second that you should just look up the current organisation of your local military and use that.

The last few posts were far too long for my short attention span. I presume there were some of you anticipating what I'm about to say, and some disagreeing.

There are always solely stormtroopers in the films, because what we're shown are the most important theatres in the war:

IS stole the blueprints for a new generation of mega-super aircraft carrier hid them in the desert. Whom are you sending in? Delta Force or Conscripts.

You've just built said aircraft carrier. Whom are you having guard it?

You know the wherabouts of IS last hidding place, but their AA installations are impregnable. Whom are you sending in?

You're setting up a trap for the world's most dangerous terrorist. Whom are you sending in?

Your last super-mega aircraft carrier has been blown up by IS, and your just constructing another one. Whom are you having guard the shipyard?

Sorry, I should have included an emoticon or something in my opener on that last post...upon re-read, it comes off as quite angry/snarky, and that wasn't my intent.

I absolutely do think it's a completely off-base theory that is only (barely) plausible by ignoring every non-movie reference, and then making the extreme assumption from the movies that "if we don't see something specifically shown, then it doesn't exist"...but I don't have any kind of antipathy toward anyone that chooses to think that way. My apologies for poor communication on that one, a wink might have helped greatly.

I get it that the movies are the "highest reference", but my issue is that, in order to logically uphold this theory, you're required to limit your knowledge base to *only* the films (as expanding it even to the most accepted of the novels, (the Thrawn Trilogy) would mean necessarily accepting the existence of the regular army). And if you're limiting to *only* the movies, and *only* the things you *see* in the movies, then by the same rationale, commonly accepted things like Victory-class SDs, Dreadnaughts, and any number of planets, characters, and equipment must also not exist, assuming you feel that your reasoning is solid for making the claim that the imperial army doesn't exist.

I also don't in any way consider a few (even maybe dozens) of gamers on a message board site to be at all a significant counterpoint to the body of information that goes directly counter the idea (that body of data which you seem perfectly content to completely ignore). Essentially, the argument is, "We don't care that the existence and details are fully supported and are not contradicted by any source anywhere. We refuse to even acknowledge their existence, and instead choose to believe that, even though the movies themselves still do not contradict all of that other source material, that specifically because the movies don't spell it out, that the opposite must be true."

By the same rationale, you could make a just-as-solid argument that every other planet in the galaxy that does not appear on screen is made of bubblegum, and there are a race of giant ants that live on all of these planets, and leave the humans of the galaxy to squabble over the dozen or so worlds we see in the movies. Since we are not considering any other material but the movies, and the movies don't specifically rule out this possibility with on-screen evidence, then it must be held as every bit as plausible as the imperial army not existing.

It's just really shoddy logic, and I feel that to present it as fact in any way is not only inaccurate, but deceptive.

Again, feel free to believe whatever you like, and I really didn't mean to sound that angry in my last post (flippant, absolutely, but I really couldn't care less what sort of wild fan theories people choose to believe), but I do think it's also important to include the context that it is, in fact, a view that is extremely out of sync with large portions of the established lore.

Sorry, I should have included an emoticon or something in my opener on that last post...upon re-read, it comes off as quite angry/snarky, and that wasn't my intent.

Fair enough. I can often come off as a jerk in my posts but believe me I'm really a nice guy. :)

I get it that the movies are the "highest reference", but my issue is that, in order to logically uphold this theory, you're required to limit your knowledge base to *only* the films (as expanding it even to the most accepted of the novels, (the Thrawn Trilogy) would mean necessarily accepting the existence of the regular army). And if you're limiting to *only* the movies, and *only* the things you *see* in the movies, then by the same rationale, commonly accepted things like Victory-class SDs, Dreadnaughts, and any number of planets, characters, and equipment must also not exist, assuming you feel that your reasoning is solid for making the claim that the imperial army doesn't exist.

I like to pick and choose what I like in my campaign. It's MY Star Wars universe after all. If I want Victory-class SD's running around without an Imperial Army Trooper to be seen, I don't think it should be considered some crazy notion by those that embrace nearly all of the EU. Just because I open my campaign doors to EU gems doesn't mean I should be forced to accept what I think are the turds, too.

It's just really shoddy logic, and I feel that to present it as fact in any way is not only inaccurate, but deceptive.

No one presented it as "fact". We simply presented our own opinions on the subject. It wasn't deceptive at all.

No one presented it as "fact". We simply presented our own opinions on the subject. It wasn't deceptive at all.

You may not have, but taken directly from one of the posts that started this whole thing:

I said there is no imperial army trooper - everything in canon seems to agree with that.

I like to pick and choose what I like in my campaign. It's MY Star Wars universe after all. If I want Victory-class SD's running around without an Imperial Army Trooper to be seen, I don't think it should be considered some crazy notion by those that embrace nearly all of the EU. Just because I open my campaign doors to EU gems doesn't mean I should be forced to accept what I think are the turds, too.

Absolutely agree on that one. And I'd have taken little issue with it if it were presented as such, but the initial presentation was one of, "This is my stance on the issue, and it's backed up with evidence and solid reasoning."

As I said before, I live in complete denial of the Vong...pretty much all of the SW story that takes place more than a few years after Thrawn, really. But by the same token, I don't carry that view into the greater context of a discussion about that part of the timeline and say that major events never happened (of course, one if the things I am going to love in a bit over a month is having established lore that completely invalidates that specific part of the lore...but that's a discussion for another time).

Fair enough. I can often come off as a jerk in my posts but believe me I'm really a nice guy. :)

I'm really pretty salty in person as well, but I guess I make up for it in trivia skills and exhaustive beer knowledge so that people can still stand to be around me.

No one presented it as "fact". We simply presented our own opinions on the subject. It wasn't deceptive at all.

You may not have, but taken directly from one of the posts that started this whole thing:

I said there is no imperial army trooper - everything in canon seems to agree with that.

You are taking this sentence out of context. Reading everything he posted on the matter makes it much more apparent it is his personal opinion and "canon" to him does not include much or any EU.

There is no such thing as an imperial army trooper.

Never seen them in anything other than craptastic weg. Why ffg kept them i don't know. Stormtroopers are the infantry - they are recognizable by people and people want to fight them. They are the infantry, but at most i would say the army troopers are the vehicle crews.

Then, after you called him on it....

I said there is no imperial army trooper - everything in canon seems to agree with that.

His second sentence in the first post above points out that he knows they exist in some sources since he mentions WEG, where they were first created. Reading his post in-context shows he knows they exist in a source he doesn't have a good opinion of. Thinking something is "craptastic" is obviously a personal opinion not based in fact. :) With that in mind, he posted the second response which makes it obvious what he is calling canon is not what others may be calling canon since he already acknowledged they existed in WEG. Yes, he could have said, "movie canon", or some such, not just "canon", but reading it in-context makes it obvious he wasn't including EU as canon.

PS: Including the new, official definition of "canon" imposed by Disney, he's actually correct as far as I know. I haven't heard of Imperial Army Troopers showing up in any movie, the Clone Wars series, Rebels series, or any of the new comics or novels which are the only things included in the new canon. I challenge you to find me an image of a Star Wars Imperial Army Trooper with supporting information saying it is such from any of those new canon sources. I haven't read everything new. I could be wrong

Edited by Sturn

A couple of things:

I'm sorry for the derail, but is hard to determine the imperial military structure without clarifying what stormtroopers really are. Now, from Pablo Hidalgo, via Rebels Recon:

Rebels Recon 1.09

Q: Are Stromtroopers considered an elite corp of the Imperial Military. Or are they regular soldiers?

A: Oh man what is the best way of answering this that is fully respectful of the awesome 501st legion? It is easy to put on paper that Stormtroopers are the super elite, the best of the best. But when it comes to having to put them on screen they often fill roles where you can't have the best of the best. I mean if you're going to exhibit a soldier in Star Wars, an Imperial Soldier, you're not going to create some sort of generic military guy, you want to use Stormtroopers. So that means you have to have a mix, and that's true in the movies. If you look some of the Stormtroopers are really good. The guys that raided the Tantive IV, at the beginning of A New Hope, those guys are really good, they really made short work of those rebel defenders. Now compare that to some of the guys that are chasing Han Luke, and Liea around aboard the Death Star. So it's not an equal mix. Which goes to the argument that these guys aren't clones. You know because they're definitely anything but uniform.

So, there you have my stance. The rank and file infantry are Stormies, the best if the best are Stormies. Vehicle crews are seperate, mostly.

As to the size of a deployed group, i generally think of squads of 12 divided into 3, 4 person elements or fireteams with a sergeant coordinating. However, you could take cue from imperial asssult and deploy them in 3 person fire team.

I honestly see the Empire using the threat of orbital bombardment as a deterrent - or even primary method of assault, followed by overwhelming vehicle units and sending in stormtroooers when the previous two options are not viable - such as the tunnels snd trenches of Hoth and the Boarding of the Tantive IV.

General is a term given to a military leader who is overseeing, planning and coordinating a battle Both Veers and Jedi held the title, as well as Solo and Calrissian. An admiral commands multiple star ships, but a general could, if in charge of the battle, order them around.

This is conjecture, but i think the best thing to do is not use real world military structure, but adapt what we see on screen and read to make a logical cohesive whole, where the names and ranks of various military branches are intermingled.

The rebels are even more confusing, as they are a volunteer army - the troops can come and go freely, as they wish. (Source: Lost Stars). As long as they follow protocols and precautions.

Well, you can extrapolate however you want just as I can. I think in the second set of movies Spielberg was trying to mirror the events of our reality. Heck, the recently christened Darth Vader actually said "If you're not with me, you're against me." which mirrors the words of a certain American President of the time who was often accused of being the servant of a dark master. Thus the militarization of civilian police seems a meme that could easily be repeated in fiction making the stormtrooper a more accessible character. Sure we are supposed to shoot them down as if they are little more than battle droids, but why not change that dynamic. What if they were local police wearing hand me down armor? What if one stormtrooper was a childhood friend of one of the PC's? What if one was the son of the guy who runs the krellburger stand they like to eat at? Why not humanize them?