UPDATE: The Courtier skill has been renamed Influence, on the advice of forumites, and the note on the Crafty advantage has been altered to match the old version. I've also added details on Court Battle in a separate comment .

There's really no point in me doing this, since for it to really be useful, I'd have to also redesign all the courtier techniques, some of the spells, etc. But when have I ever needed a point to waste my time on something? :-P Maybe I'll get around to that eventually. Or somebody else will. We'll see.

What follows is (the beginning of) my take on a new approach to social matters in L5R. It remains largely within the framework of 4e mechanics; I'm not introducing entirely new system elements, though there have been proposals for things along those lines that I think are interesting. It does, however, make alterations to the 4e framework -- hence saying that I'd need to redo techs and such before this would really be useful.

This can't possibly be all things to all people, of course. I know some of you won't like it, either because it goes too far, or because it doesn't go far enough. :-) I may make alterations to it before I put this together as a PDF and post it somewhere (in particular, I'm still futzing with the mastery abilities, and would appreciate input), but the general shape of it is more or less set. One of the advantages of doing this as a casual side product, rather than an official thing I'm being paid for, is that I can do what I like. :-P

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SKILLS

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it. Ergo, I've changed those tactics into Low emphases for High Skills, just like Deceit. Second, I've attempted to clarify and make coherent what effect each social skill has, more clearly delineating the differences between them, laying out ways to roll them (including using more Traits than just Awareness), and discussing their mechanical or roleplay effects. Third, I've given each skill three mastery abilities, which I think should be true of all skills in L5R.

There are five skills (all High, though not always employed in High fashion) which can be used under ordinary circumstances to influence people socially. The divisions between them are not 100% rigid -- there may be cases where two or more skills might be considered appropriate, or the tenor of the scene changes depending on which one is used -- but the descriptions here are meant to give GMs and players a solid basis for deciding which one to apply.

If not described here, the effects of success will be discussed in more detail later. "Significant failure" means that the roll misses the TN by 10 or more.

Etiquette
Emphases: Composure, Courtesy, Insult
This is the skill of influencing how other people see you. It is most commonly used with the Courtesy emphasis to ingratiate yourself with another character, whether by giving a gift or merely making pleasant conversation; this is rolled with Awareness against either a static TN or the target's Etiquette (Composure) / Willpower. Success means the target accepts the gift or views you favorably; failure means their opinion is unchanged; significant failure means you lose Honor for a minor breach of etiquette. This skill can also be used to give calculated offense with the Insult emphasis; in such cases, the contested roll is the same. The Composure emphasis applies to situations where you wish to resist the influence of others or conceal your emotional state; this is rolled with Willpower against either the social skill (if resisting influence) or Investigation (Interrogation) / Perception (if concealing). Success means you are unaffected or hide your true feelings; significant failure has no effect on concealment. Feigning a different reaction falls under Sincerity (Deceit) instead.

Mastery abilities
Rank 3 -- You gain +3 Insight.
Rank 5 -- You gain +1k0 to any Contested Roll using Etiquette.
Rank 7 -- You gain +7 Insight.

Influence
Emphases: Intimidation*, Manipulation, Temptation*
This is the skill of influencing someone else's actions, and is almost always rolled with Awareness against the target's Etiquette (Composure) / Willpower. With the Temptation emphasis, you seek to lure your target into accepting something you are offering, which could be a bribe or a seduction. Significant failure means you lose Honor as if you had committed a minor breach of etiquette (which may rise to major or even blasphemous, at GM's discretion). With the Intimidation emphasis, you roll Willpower instead, and seek to cow your target into complying with your demands. Success inflicts a -1k0 penalty to actions by the target which go against the agent's wishes, while significant failure is the same as with Temptation. Both of these applications usually involve Honor loss for use of a Low Skill, while the target may add their Honor Rank to the total of their roll to resist. Manipulation is used for other forms of influence, such as baiting your target into saying something offensive or embarrassing. Significant failure means you lose one point of Glory for your clumsy and obvious attempt.

Mastery abilities
Rank 3 -- You gain +3 Insight.
Rank 5 -- You gain +1k0 to any Contested Roll using Influence.
Rank 7 -- You gain +7 Insight.

Perform
Sub-types: Poetry, Rhetoric, Singing, Storytelling
This is the skill of affecting the emotional state of your target, inducing feelings of sadness, anger, romance, bravery, or other suitable effects. Rhetoric and Storytelling can be integrated with ordinary conversation, though they can also be executed as a distinct performance; Poetry and Singing are more overt. When used to influence others, these skills are rolled against the target's Etiquette (Composure) / Willpower. Success means you incline your target toward the designated mood; significant failure means you lose one point of Glory for your poor performance. These skills can also be rolled against a static TN purely for social acclaim.

There are, of course, other Perform skills (e.g. Dance or Shamisen), and at the GM's discretion, those can also be used for influencing mood. The four described above are merely the ones best-suited to that application, because of their verbal content.

Mastery abilities:
Rank 3 -- You gain a free emphasis.
Rank 5 -- You gain +1k0 to any Contested Roll to affect someone's mood.
Rank 7 -- If you fail a roll in which you have an emphasis, you may reroll once at no penalty.

Politics
Emphases: Bureaucracy, Court Battle, Gossip, Negotiation
This is the skill of navigating the courtly world on a broader scale. While Influence (Manipulation) most often applies in the roleplay of interpersonal conflict, Politics is more abstract, representing long-term efforts or those which involve speaking to multiple people. The Bureaucracy emphasis is rolled with Intelligence against a static TN, and is used to know who occupies which positions at court, who has the power to authorize or arrange certain things, and what procedures must be followed to conduct business effectively. Success means you gain the information you need; significant failure means you act on incorrect information. It may also be rolled with Awareness to represent the character interacting with that bureaucracy. The Gossip emphasis covers both gathering and spreading rumors, and is usually rolled with Awareness against a TN equal to 10 plus the target's Glory x5, minus your Glory x5. The Negotiation emphasis covers attempts to strike a deal, and is a contested roll against the target's Politics (Negotiation); this can be rolled with either Intelligence or Awareness, depending on circumstances and each character's negotiating tactics. Significant failure means the character concedes far more than they intended. The Court Battle emphasis applies to an optional system, to be discussed later.

Mastery abilities
Rank 3 -- You may attempt to conceal that you are the source of gossip by calling Raises on your roll.
Rank 5 -- You gain +1k0 on Contested Rolls.
Rank 7 -- If you fail your Negotiation roll, you may reroll once at no penalty.

Sincerity
Emphases: Deceit*, Flattery, Honesty
This is the skill of persuading someone to believe your words, and is rolled with Awareness. If the Honesty emphasis applies, you roll against a static TN based on the plausibility of your words. Success means you are believed, while significant failure means the target not only disbelieves you, but puts a negative spin on your words. If the Deceit emphasis applies, this is a contested roll against the target's Investigation (Interrogation) / Perception. Success means you are believed; significant failure means you lose both Honor and Glory, in amounts determined by the magnitude of your lie. Deceit usually entails Honor loss, but it is considered acceptable to use this emphasis to feign a pleasant reaction in place of your true feelings, in order to preserve on and social harmony. If the Flattery emphasis applies, you roll against the target's Etiquette (Composure) / Willpower. Success means you please your target, while significant failure means you lose one point of Glory for your inelegant words.

Mastery abilities
Rank 3 -- You may add your Honor Rank to the total of all Honesty rolls.
Rank 5 -- You gain +1k0 to any Contested Roll using Sincerity.
Rank 7 -- If you fail an Honesty roll, you may reroll once at no penalty.

Example of play:

Doji Himawari is trying to gain the support of a former classmate for her to be appointed the Minister of the Exterior in Shizuka Toshi. Which skill she uses to achieve this goal will vary based on her tactics. If she wants to make her classmate think well of her, such that he will be more inclined to support her based on goodwill, she will roll Etiquette (Courtesy). If she wants to arrange a bargain with him, doing some equivalent favor in exchange for his support, she will roll Politics (Negotiation). If she knows that her main rival is corrupt -- or at least wants her classmate to believe it -- she will roll Sincerity. And finally, if she wants to take the more direct route of persuading him to support her, she will roll Influence (Manipulation). Any of these approaches are possible, and for an important scenario she might combine them for greater effect. But on their own, Etiquette and Sincerity are more of a shot in the dark; in both cases Himawari is simply doing something to boost herself or tear down her rival, without actually referencing the outcome she hopes to achieve. Politics is more targeted, but involves a cost in return. Influence is the most straightforward approach, with the least cost -- but in many cases it is also the least elegant choice, and may be more difficult to achieve unless Himawari has first prepared the ground with other efforts.

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MODIFIERS

Although the above describes the basic use of TNs and Contested Rolls, social interactions can be affected by a number of different factors, which can make a result easier or more difficult to achieve. Rather than attempting to list numerical values for such factors, the following section describes the significance of each potential type of modifier, and what kinds of situations it applies to. "Agent" means the active character in the interaction; "target" means the opponent in a Contested Roll.

How often these modifiers should be brought into play will depend on the GM and the players. Some groups will enjoy modeling nuances with frequent adjustments to their dice pools; others will not. The concept of what each modifier type represents, however, will continue to be used throughout this revision.

Skill-based bonus
Social behaviors often draw on more than one ability at a time. This can be reflected by adding a character's Rank in a relevant Skill to the total of a roll with a different Skill. Many combinations are possible, but some are more common than others. For example, you may add your Calligraphy Skill Rank to social rolls made via writing. Characters who practice Meditation may add that to their Etiquette (Composure) rolls, drawing on their inner serenity. Lore skills or other fields of speciality may be used when speaking on a particular topic, or ingratiating oneself with a target knowledgeable in that field. Depending on circumstances, you may chose which Skill to roll, and which to add as a bonus; the former will be considered the primary effect. A character who rolls Sincerity (Flattery) and adds Poetry to the total will be more effective at pleasing his target with a complimentary poem, but will not be remembered for a memorable composition; if he rolls Perform: Poetry instead and adds his Sincerity, the poem's aesthetic qualities will take primacy over its flattering effect.

Boost to the agent's dice pool
When your character has prepared well for an interaction, you may gain additional unkept or even kept dice for your roll, scaled to reflect the effectiveness of the preparation. Such boosts are commonly obtained by making other rolls in advance, especially if the player calls Raises on that roll. Investigation / Perception, for example, can reveal points of leverage that make a character easier to manipulate with Influence, and Perform can put the target into a receptive mood for a subsequent request. The GM may also grant additional dice as a reward for out-of-character effort: a player who writes an actual haiku or tanka may gain one or two unkept dice on their Perform: Poetry roll, and one who comes up with an especially vicious line of dialogue may get the same on an Etiquette (Insult) roll. If the circumstances that make a task easy have more to do with the agent than the target, this modifier should be used.

Reduction of the agent's dice pool
Circumstances which put the active character at a disadvantage should be modeled by removing unkept or kept dice from the roll. If he is asking for a favor from a samurai he has previously offended, for example, he might face a small reduction; against a sworn enemy, this reduction may become large. If the circumstances that make a task difficult have more to do with the agent than the target, this modifier should be used.

Boost to the target's dice pool
Characters are often less susceptible to certain kinds of influence than others. A happily married character or a lifelong celibate is a more difficult target for seduction; someone with little coin to spare will be reluctant to loan money; a character actively standing guard will be hard to lure away from his post. If the circumstances that make a task difficult have more to do with the target than the agent, this modifier should be used.

Reduction to the target's dice pool
Conversely to the above, a character may be more vulnerable to particular arguments. A guard who has continually been slighted by his lord may be tempted by a bribe to look the other way; a character who is drunk will have less control over his emotions. If the circumstances that make a task easy have more to do with the target than the agent, this modifier should be used.

Free Raises
This modifier should be used very sparingly, as it not only improves the character's chance of success, but allows them to achieve a better result overall than they might have been capable of on their own. In most cases the only way to obtain a Free Raise is through a technique, or else through gaining ten ranks of skill, but the GM may choose to award one for excellent preparation or a particularly vulnerable target.

Target number
For non-contested rolls, of course, the GM can easily adjust difficulty by choosing an appropriate target number. For simple tasks and unimportant NPCs in particular, it is often easier to simply choose a TN than to decide on a dice pool and appropriate modifiers.

***

RAISES

The mechanic of Raises can be used to represent situations where a character chooses to forgo the basic result of a roll, opting to aim for a more difficult (but more effective) goal, with an increased risk of failure. A basic example would be a character rolling Politics (Bureaucracy) / Awareness to request a meeting with an important minister. A successful ordinary roll means the meeting will occur, but at a time convenient to the minister -- which, depending on the Status gap, may not be any time soon. By calling Raises, the character can press to have the encounter happen in a more timely fashion. Failing such a roll, however, means the minister is offended by such pushy insistence and refuses to meet at all.

It is impossible to fully outline the potential uses of Raises in social interactions, or to precisely measure the benefits they bring. Unlike combat, conversation is not (in this system) designed around quantitative values such as damage or Armor TN, which means the effect of a Raise will always be subject to consensus between the players and GM: calling one makes an effect "stronger," but the exact result will depend on the characters, the situation, and the scale the participants have agreed upon. In general, however, GMs should bear in mind that every samurai begins with a Void Rank of 2. Therefore, one or two Raises should give a relatively ordinary benefit, while calling three or more moves into territory others might acknowledge as impressive. (This is especially true on Contested Rolls, where there is less certainty as to what the "TN" created by the opposing side will be.)

Raises are not suitable for rolls in which the character is not choosing to attempt a more difficult task, or there is no increased risk of failure. For example, players should rarely if ever call Raises on Investigation rolls: scalar success (giving more information for a higher result) is a better reflection of the in-character reality, as the character searching for small clues is unlikely to overlook the dead body in the middle of the floor.

The following gives guidelines, some more quantitative than others, concerning what Raises can achieve depending on the use to which the skill is being put.

Etiquette (Composure)
Raises are not generally used on these rolls, as attempting to remain more serene or resist manipulation does not entail a greater risk of losing control entirely.

Etiquette (Courtesy)
A character who makes a Courtesy roll without calling Raises successfully performs the expected etiquette of Rokugani society -- a task which may be quite difficult on its own, if she is being presented to the Emperor at Winter Court or entering some other highly ritualized situation. To make more than a neutral impression, she can call Raises; this may indicate that she presents a gift with particularly flowery language, shows surprising facility with local customs, or otherwise distinguishes herself from the common herd.

Etiquette (Insult)
Although insulting someone may not seem like a task that requires a roll, in Rokugan, insults must be performed correctly or they will bring consequences. A successful ordinary roll means the one giving the insult has done so according to custom, without disgracing himself. With Raises, the insult is more cutting and elegant: the target loses one point of Glory for each Raise called, unless he responds in kind or calls the offender out for a duel. (This often creates a cycle of insult, as both characters want the last word, and explains how many minor altercations rise to the level of dueling.) Significant failure means you lose one point of Glory per Raise for your boorishness.

Influence (Intimidation)
As described above, successful Intimidation roll inflicts a -1k0 penalty to actions by the target which go against the agent's wishes. For each Raise called on the roll, this penalty increases by an additional 1k0. Significant failure, however, earns the character one point of Infamy per Raise.

Influence (Manipulation)
The effects of this emphasis are less clear-cut. One Raise may be sufficient to provoke the target into a minor breach of etiquette; three could increase this to a major breach. The difficulty of inducing other kinds of actions will depend on circumstances. One Raise could persuade the target to speak positively about the agent in a particular cause, while three could make him to actively campaign for her side.

Influence (Temptation)
Raises on Temptation most often represent the agent offering a less substantial bribe for a more serious favor, or trying to lure the target more rapidly into a dangerous indiscretion. Significant failure earns the character one point of Infamy per Raise.

Politics (Bureaucracy)
As described above, Raises on Bureaucracy rolls can help a character navigate the machinery of court more efficiently. Generally speaking, the greater the Status gap between the agent and the character who can grant their request, the more Raises the agent must call to achieve their goal rapidly.

Politics (Gossip)
Characters who have at least three ranks in Politics may call Raises to conceal they are the source of a new rumor; this increases the TN of the Investigation roll by 5 per Raise. When gathering Gossip, a roll with no Raises will bring in whatever information is most readily available through the grapevine, but Raises allow the agent to obtain greater detail on a more specific topic. Raises can also be used to conceal the agent's interest, in the same manner as above.

Politics (Negotiation)
When bargaining, both parties usually have a minimum goal they wish to achieve, which can be obtained with a successful ordinary roll. By calling Raises, the character can attempt to achieve a better result, either by obtaining more, or by conceding less to the other party. Significant failure on such a roll means a major and unwanted concession.

Perform
As with Artisan and those Craft skills which are considered High, each Raise called on a successful Perform roll earns the character one point of Glory. When the skill is being used to influence the mood of others, Raises are necessary: a single one might mean the target empathizes with the performance, while a roll with three Raises means that his mood is affected enough to influence his actions, and five Raises could provoke a public display of emotion.

Sincerity (Deceit)
A character who wishes to embroider his lie with additional, less plausible detail must usually call Raises on the roll: "There was indeed a man slipping out of his room last night, my lord. In fact -- though I could not be certain of this; the light was so dim -- I think it may have been Kakita Norisuke." Raises may also be required if the character wishes to feign a reaction which is strongly different from the reality, such as pleasure when meeting a sworn enemy.

Sincerity (Flattery)
Raises on a Flattery roll may translate into a small bonus on a subsequent roll, if the agent is asking for a favor or otherwise making use of her success at ingratiating herself with the target. The size of this bonus should depend on circumstances, but +1k0 per two Raises is a suitable guideline.

Sincerity (Honesty)

Characters will not ordinarily call Raises on Honesty rolls, but the GM may allow it if the player wishes to speak bluntly without giving offense.

***

GLORY

In this approach, Glory is expected to fluctuate on a regular basis. The skill descriptions above outlined some of the ways in which Glory can be lost, but one of the most common ways for it to drop is for the player to spend it for mechanical benefit. By spending one point of Glory, they may add their Glory Rank (minus their Infamy Rank, if applicable) to the total of a social roll. This represents the character putting the weight of their fame behind their words, and only applies in situations where that reputation might do them good: for example, Etiquette (Composure) rolls cannot benefit from this mechanic, nor can any roll in contexts where the character's identity is not known. Characters with Infamy may choose to spend a point of Glory to instead add their Infamy Rank to Influence (Intimidation) rolls. If the Glory Rank of the character is equal to or lower than their Insight Rank (such as 3.0 for an Insight Rank 3 character, not 3.7), they cannot spend for this effect.

When rolling Lore: Heraldry to identify a character based on their Glory and/or Infamy, success above the normal TN yields further information about the samurai in question, beginning with whatever is best known (their deeds, their lineage, or other such details).


STATUS

Although Status does not give one samurai the right to give orders to people outside their scope of authority, it nonetheless carries a great deal of social weight. GMs who wish to emphasize the force of Status in Rokugan may choose to represent this mechanically, by allowing characters to add their Status Rank to the total of their social rolls. Under this optional rule, a threat from a family daimyo is more frightening, and a sworn statement from an Emerald Magistrate more convincing. The GM may rule that certain kinds of rolls cannot receive this benefit -- but even a performance may be more impressive, simply because samurai are conditioned to admire the works of their betters more than equal attempts from someone of no significance.


FATIGUE

The Fatigued condition inflicts -5 to the total of the character's roll, rather than a +5 to their TN. The purpose of this change is to bring the form of the modifier in line with the standard for this revision.


ADVANTAGES

Altering the mechanics of Advantages/Disadvantages is not strictly necessary in most cases, but I might as well go through it all, both to tidy things up and to bring modifiers in line with the system being used here.

Balance -- eliminated (because of redundancy)

Clear Thinker -- choose Etiquette, Influence, Perform, or Sincerity when you take this Advantage. You gain a bonus of +1k0 against attempts to influence you with that skill. You may take this Advantage more than once, for a different skill each time.

Crafty -- operates according to the 4e version, but applies to any Low usage of a skill in which you have no ranks (e.g. Intimidation for if you have no Influence).

Dangerous Beauty -- +1k0 when attempting to seduce someone attracted to your gender.

Irreproachable -- eliminated (because of redundancy)

Crab Hands, Sage, Sensation, Soul of Artistry -- the Advantage continues to add +1k0 even when you have ranks in the skill, but the first rank in each skill costs two XP instead of one.

Disturbing Countenance -- you suffer a -5 penalty to the total of all your social skill rolls.

Frail Mind -- inflicts a -2k0 penalty on the roll, instead of granting +2k0 to your opponent. This cannot reduce your dice pool below 1k1.

Greedy -- you suffer a -1k1 penalty to resist Influence (Temptation) rolls involving bribery.

Gullible -- you suffer a -1k1 penalty against Sincerity (Deceit) and Sincerity (Flattery).

Lechery -- you suffer a -1k1 penalty to resist Influence (Temptation) rolls involving seduction.

Lost Love -- you suffer -5 to the total of all your rolls, rather than a +5 to your TN. This does not apply to rolls that are not contested and have no TN.

Benten's Curse -- you suffer a -1k1 penalty to all Etiquette rolls not involving the Insult emphasis.

Soft-Hearted -- penalty of -1k1 to all rolls when triggered.

***

Up next: Court Battle. I have the framework, but should put together a chart and Heroic Opportunities to flesh it out. (Update: it's been added here .

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it.

Wait, do I miss a rule here or something? Why did the players think that they would be terrible at Intimidation/Temptation? Just put some Ranks on them, it isn't harder than with any other Skill.

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it.

Wait, do I miss a rule here or something? Why did the players think that they would be terrible at Intimidation/Temptation? Just put some Ranks on them, it isn't harder than with any other Skill.

I have to agree with AtoMaki. I don't know about your experience but mines aren't terrible at all. Not to mention that the whole Yoritomo Courtier School is based entirely on Intimidation...

I would like to know what you mean by "as a separate category" because a Social Skill is a Social Skill, no matter if it's a High or Low Skills. I'm not saying that I hate all you did, I'm just not liking this part because these skills need to be in the system. Removing these would also place some Clan in a huge disadvantage, like I've said the Yoritomo Courtier School, as a perfect example, would suffer a lot because his techniques aren't relying on any Skills you've set. I would suggest to rework it a little to keep these Skills.

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it.

Wait, do I miss a rule here or something? Why did the players think that they would be terrible at Intimidation/Temptation? Just put some Ranks on them, it isn't harder than with any other Skill.

They'd be terrible at it because they don't buy ranks in it because those skills are only usable for dishonorable purposes. If you're playing a school that doesn't care much about honor and makes use of those skills, sure, it's fine -- but I'm folding them in because then whether or not to act dishonorably becomes more of a moral question, rather than a mechanical one. Just like it is with lying.

Crawd -- I mean the groupings that are in the book, i.e. High, Bugei, Merchant, Low. I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category, off in its own little dishonorable ghetto. You can still do all those things; you just do them as dishonorable applications of skills you already have, such as forging orders with Calligraphy instead of Forgery (which is only common sense, really), intimidating or bribing with Courtier, etc. As for its effect on schools, I refer you to the very first paragraph of my post, where I say up front that making this fully usable would require redesigning courtier techs to match.

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it.

Wait, do I miss a rule here or something? Why did the players think that they would be terrible at Intimidation/Temptation? Just put some Ranks on them, it isn't harder than with any other Skill.

They'd be terrible at it because they don't buy ranks in it because those skills are only usable for dishonorable purposes. If you're playing a school that doesn't care much about honor and makes use of those skills, sure, it's fine -- but I'm folding them in because then whether or not to act dishonorably becomes more of a moral question, rather than a mechanical one. Just like it is with lying.

Ah, I see. Though, it sounds really strange that the big, intimidating Hida Bushi is now also a master manipulator .

Why not skip the regular mechanics and larp the social system?

Ah, I see. Though, it sounds really strange that the big, intimidating Hida Bushi is now also a master manipulator .

Eh, you win some, you lose some. :-P Under the 4e setup, I find it weird that the Doji are awesome at finding the perfect gift . . . but apparently crap at offering bribes, as if those two things are all that radically different. At least the Hida probably doesn't have a great Awareness to back up the less blunt-force uses of the Courtier skill.

Ah, I see. Though, it sounds really strange that the big, intimidating Hida Bushi is now also a master manipulator .

Eh, you win some, you lose some. :-P Under the 4e setup, I find it weird that the Doji are awesome at finding the perfect gift . . . but apparently crap at offering bribes, as if those two things are all that radically different. At least the Hida probably doesn't have a great Awareness to back up the less blunt-force uses of the Courtier skill.

Actually, the act of gift giving and bribing someone are radically different concepts in L5R and can be looked at as opposites. First, gift giving is extremely social event and is even referred to as a ritual while bribing would be something best left out of the social scene. Secondly, there's the value of honor placed in gifts. The biggest difference is that a gift's value is based on its significance and not necessarily its value while the value of a bribe is paramount.

To answer the argument that the Big Hida Bushi with lots of Intimidation is now a master manipulator...

He always was. He just prefers to use an unsubtle method of manipulation.

Watch a drill sergeant take someone apart verbally some time. It is impressive.

I really like this system, Kinzen, and I completely agree on your opinion about Low Skills. They should just be High, Merchant, and Bugei Skills with Low applications. And yes, I would make Stealth a Bugei skill, since its principal use, Sneaking, is not inherently dishonorable by the rules.

Underlying principles for this section: first of all, I'm eliminating Low Skills as a separate category. In my experience, players are willing to have their PCs lie sometimes (because they have Sincerity already, and can choose to use it dishonorably), but they almost never intimidate or tempt anybody, because they know they'll be terrible at it.

Wait, do I miss a rule here or something? Why did the players think that they would be terrible at Intimidation/Temptation? Just put some Ranks on them, it isn't harder than with any other Skill.

They'd be terrible at it because they don't buy ranks in it because those skills are only usable for dishonorable purposes. If you're playing a school that doesn't care much about honor and makes use of those skills, sure, it's fine -- but I'm folding them in because then whether or not to act dishonorably becomes more of a moral question, rather than a mechanical one. Just like it is with lying.

I think I see exactly what Kinzen means here, and if it's not stepping on her toes--sorry, Kinzen!--can I explain a tiny bit more explicitly from a player's perspective?

I've made some medium-honorable character, say a Mirumoto bushi or even a Hida. I took Courtier because that's one of the basic "social survival skills"; I didn't take Intimidation, because pushing people around is not a major part of my character concept--certainly not so much that I'm going to invest precious starting XP into it. When I run into situations where I have a choice between intimidation or being nice, I'm going to end up considering not just Honor! but also the fact that, no matter how much I hate this dishonorable sucker I'm talking to, I'll roll 5k3 if I stick to (reasonably) amicable persuasion, and just 3k3 non-exploding if I try to intimidate him instead.

I really like this particular change for social skills (and bugei skills--this already pretty much describes the situation with Stealth, and Ninjutsu has long been weirdly redundant), though I think no matter what you may be left with some skills whose use is always Low (or so nearly always as makes no difference)--Poison, anyone? And actually I do think Forgery makes more sense as its own skill, though it could be boosted by skill-based bonuses from relevant High Skills like Calligraphy or Painting.

Also, assuming we're still otherwise sticking to 4E rules with their parsimonious use of Free Raises, your burly Hida Bushi won't actually turn into a master social manipulator just because she's good at intimidating people, either. Her high Earth Ring may make her pretty scary, but it won't do her very much good on the rest of her non-Intimidation-emphasis Courtier rolls, since those key off Awareness, not Willpower. Nor will your gentle Doji with Earth 2 suddenly become a terrifying intimidator.

I really like this system, Kinzen, and I completely agree on your opinion about Low Skills. They should just be High, Merchant, and Bugei Skills with Low applications. And yes, I would make Stealth a Bugei skill, since its principal use, Sneaking, is not inherently dishonorable by the rules.

That's my plan, yeah. I didn't include the others because I'm focusing on social stuff here, but Stealth is now a Bugei skill; whether it involves honor loss depends on whether you're scouting for the army/stalking a wild animal or using it to ambush a samurai. Forgery isn't a skill; it's a way of using other skills. The only really tricky one is Sleight of Hand, and I'm okay with calling that a Perform skill that can be honorably used for entertainment, but isn't much practiced by samurai. I frankly doubt it comes up that often in most games anyway.

Locust Shell -- Craft: Poison would always be low, yeah. But Craft as a macro skill is still under Merchant, rather than being in the Low Skill ghetto. I ditched Ninjutsu a long time ago in my house rules (shuriken and tsubute are thrown with Athletics, and I stuck blowguns in Kyujutsu because it's really not worth having a separate skill just for them). As for Forgery, nah, I don't buy it being its own skill: if you're forging a chop, why in god's name should you be able to do that if you don't know which end of a carving tool to hold? Or why can you fake somebody's elegant handwriting when your own calligraphy looks like that of a Rokugani six-year-old? You're using your skill at other things to mimic somebody else's style, not exercising a wholly different skill set, and being able to fake another person's handwriting shouldn't mean you can also carve like a master sculptor (but only so long as you're imitating him).

Re: Forgery, this is a sticky one from my perspective because it's true you do need some modicum of the basic ability-to-make-the-type-of-thing which you're forging. But the skills you need to make a convincing fake also aren't limited to the skills needed to make the original, and some of them cross the lines of particular craft/artisan skills. To fake a letter from an Emerald Magistrate, Shosuro Sneaky not only needs to do a reasonably good imitation of the governor's handwriting, and either carve an imitation seal or paint a convincing facsimile of the seal impression (not forgetting that telltale chip on the inside left corner), she's also got to know how to acquire or fake the imperial-issue cinnabar ink the letter should be sealed with and the paper from that little atelier outside Kyuden Kakita that this particular magistrate always uses, and then age the whole thing convincingly so that it looks like it's traveled hard all the way from Crab lands instead of being slipped into the courier bag in an inn a day's ride from Toshi Ranbo. Having lovely handwriting and even the ability to do a good pastiche of someone else's style is only a small part of the task. And then if she can do all that with a letter, it seems as though she ought to have a leg up on forging, say, an ink painting as well. Hence why I'd come down on the side of making it a skeevy Craft skill, like Poison, with bonuses or TN modifications based on whether you've got other relevant skills (or have laid the groundwork in another way, like hiring an experienced seal carver to do the initial, innocuous-seeming work before personally finishing up the details that make it a "forgery" and not just a copy)

Anyway, sorry about the digression, since your OP was about social stuff, and all that I definitely like. Though I'll have to cogitate for a bit on how I feel about the breaking-out of Courtier and Politics in this particular way (maybe it's just terminological uncertainty, since "Courtier" now exclusively describes ways of manipulating people, and "Politics" encompasses so much of the active tasks that, well, are a "courtier"'s job?).

Re: Forgery, this is a sticky one from my perspective because it's true you do need some modicum of the basic ability-to-make-the-type-of-thing which you're forging. But the skills you need to make a convincing fake also aren't limited to the skills needed to make the original, and some of them cross the lines of particular craft/artisan skills. To fake a letter from an Emerald Magistrate, Shosuro Sneaky not only needs to do a reasonably good imitation of the governor's handwriting, and either carve an imitation seal or paint a convincing facsimile of the seal impression (not forgetting that telltale chip on the inside left corner), she's also got to know how to acquire or fake the imperial-issue cinnabar ink the letter should be sealed with and the paper from that little atelier outside Kyuden Kakita that this particular magistrate always uses, and then age the whole thing convincingly so that it looks like it's traveled hard all the way from Crab lands instead of being slipped into the courier bag in an inn a day's ride from Toshi Ranbo. Having lovely handwriting and even the ability to do a good pastiche of someone else's style is only a small part of the task. And then if she can do all that with a letter, it seems as though she ought to have a leg up on forging, say, an ink painting as well. Hence why I'd come down on the side of making it a skeevy Craft skill, like Poison, with bonuses or TN modifications based on whether you've got other relevant skills (or have laid the groundwork in another way, like hiring an experienced seal carver to do the initial, innocuous-seeming work before personally finishing up the details that make it a "forgery" and not just a copy)

I can't resist chasing this digression just a bit further. :-) I don't disagree with you -- but should somebody be able to forge the handwriting and the chop and so forth without also being good at those skills on their own? (I'd put "knowing about the ink and the paper" under Calligraphy, since being a good calligrapher is about more than just the handwriting.) I'd either require multiple rolls for a major, plot-important piece of forgery, or shrug and let it pass with whatever the most relevant roll is. After all, not every forgery is as complicated as the one you describe.

Anyway, sorry about the digression, since your OP was about social stuff, and all that I definitely like. Though I'll have to cogitate for a bit on how I feel about the breaking-out of Courtier and Politics in this particular way (maybe it's just terminological uncertainty, since "Courtier" now exclusively describes ways of manipulating people, and "Politics" encompasses so much of the active tasks that, well, are a "courtier"'s job?).

I could see changing the names, sure. I guess I kept them that way mostly because Manipulation is the emphasis I most commonly see rolled with Courtier, so I reflexively left the name attached to that usage, and made up a new one for the skill that's kind of a hodgepodge of 4e Courtier and Etiquette plus some new stuff.

To be honest, the separation of those two mostly came about because if I turn Intimidation and Temptation into emphases rather than skills, then Courtier becomes the all-singing-all-dancing-all-purpose Swiss Army knife of social skills. I had a vague notion of a "know your way around court in a more intellectual than interpersonal sense" skill; then I thought up Court Battle; then I thought of making Etiquette about influencing people's perception of you, at which point Bureaucracy was no longer a sensible emphasis for it. Put all that together, and this became the most logical solution to the Courtier problem. It doesn't exactly change what Courtier does (except for shifting Gossip off, and insulting people is now part of Etiquette instead of Manipulation), but it broadens the range of possible courtier tech approaches so that not everything will default to that one skill quite so much.

When you put it that way, I almost wonder if "Manipulation" (or maybe "Influence"?) might not be a better name for that skill in its own right, keeping Temptation and Intimidation as emphases and with another emphasis ( "Subtlety," perhaps, if Manipulation became the skill name?) representing what you've put under Courtier (Manipulation) right now--"other forms of influence, such as baiting your target into saying something offensive or embarrassing"? Then Politics could stay Politics or become Courtier, whichever, but you wouldn't have one skill called "Courtier" while the core job functions of most full-time courtiers, like negotiating and bureaucracy and Court Battle, were actually specific emphases located elsewhere.

I can't resist chasing this digression just a bit further. :-) I don't disagree with you -- but should somebody be able to forge the handwriting and the chop and so forth without also being good at those skills on their own? (I'd put "knowing about the ink and the paper" under Calligraphy, since being a good calligrapher is about more than just the handwriting.) I'd either require multiple rolls for a major, plot-important piece of forgery, or shrug and let it pass with whatever the most relevant roll is. After all, not every forgery is as complicated as the one you describe.

Well, if you don't mind! XD For me the sticking point's actually on the opposite end--does someone who's invested some time into getting good at producing original calligraphy, or original art, naturally also have the skills to produce a convincing forgery? That feels more unlikely to me than that someone who's invested time into getting good at unscrupulously faking an array of visual and tactile effects could manage (especially with an example to work from) to create a good enough facsimile of someone else's handwriting or someone else's seal, without necessarily having what it takes to produce original work on the same level. Especially when I think about various low-level, common uses of Forgery for which faking somebody's signature handwriting/style/whatever is actually going to be much less important than getting all the verisimilitude-inducing details right--traveling passes, for example, where no one's going to care nearly as much whether the handwriting really matches that of some random magistrate from six provinces away as they do about whether the seals and the format and the paper look the way they're expecting.

A ctually carving a replica seal that's convincing in three dimensions should indeed be harder and more specialized--more rolls/sub-tasks, higher TNs--but for most purposes you won't really need the whole seal itself, you just need the stamp it makes on the paper. Faking a work by a really great artist or a really great calligrapher (famous, A rtisan Skill 5+) should be harder too, but that'd be the case whatever skill you assign to it.

When you put it that way, I almost wonder if "Manipulation" (or maybe "Influence"?) might not be a better name for that skill in its own right, keeping Temptation and Intimidation as emphases and with another emphasis ( "Subtlety," perhaps, if Manipulation became the skill name?) representing what you've put under Courtier (Manipulation) right now--"other forms of influence, such as baiting your target into saying something offensive or embarrassing"? Then Politics could stay Politics or become Courtier, whichever, but you wouldn't have one skill called "Courtier" while the core job functions of most full-time courtiers, like negotiating and bureaucracy and Court Battle, were actually specific emphases located elsewhere.

If I rename it, I'll almost certainly call it Influence, and keep the other as Politics. After all, there isn't any skill named Bushi or Shugenja. :-P

Well, if you don't mind! XD For me the sticking point's actually on the opposite end--does someone who's invested some time into getting good at producing original calligraphy, or original art, naturally also have the skills to produce a convincing forgery?

It seems more likely to me than the other way around. Truly representing forgery would honestly get more complicated than the rules are really set up for, and it isn't a thing that's vital enough to most L5R campaigns to be worth creating special mechanics for, so you pretty much have to abstract it in one direction or the other. Me, I'd go with the one where you need to be competent with your basic tools in order to forge effectively, and handwave the finer details. But ultimately, I doubt it matters much; you could also just make it a low Craft skill like Poison.

I really like this system, Kinzen, and I completely agree on your opinion about Low Skills. They should just be High, Merchant, and Bugei Skills with Low applications. And yes, I would make Stealth a Bugei skill, since its principal use, Sneaking, is not inherently dishonorable by the rules.

It's an interesting point of view, yes. However, knowing with some discussion there was in other topic, this might bring the "The book contradicts itself" problematic. Why? Because people will say: "It's not stated to be a Low Skill so I shouldn't lose honor."

Also, when you think about it, yes Stealth is a Low Skill. Why? Because you have to see the usage of the skill toward the Emperor. Sneaking on someone or hiding something goes against the Bushido. Is it loyal to do this? Nope, Is that a display of courage? Of course not. Is that a display of righteousness? Nope. Is it a display of respect, not much. Is it a display of loyalty? Nope. Therefore, it is a Low Skill.

The whole idea of the "Low Skills" is this: Is it acceptable to use this skill against the Emperor? Sure, they don't count as Low Skills if you're using Stealth to scout ahead to get some info for the upcoming battle. Why it doesn't count? Simply because the war was already declared and this is part of the war preparations and both of them knows scouts will roam to get intel for the battle. Also Stealth isn't a Low Skill when used in the name of the Emperor. What this mean is to use that skill against the enemy of the Empire. (Shadowland, Gaijin, etc.)

This being said, you would rarely see a member of the Samurai Caste using this skill, because it's more honorable to "walk in and surrender" than simply "hide for your skin". Of course, some players would have trouble with this mentality and would prefer to use the Stealth Skill instead of doing an honorable surrendering or to not kill the NPC that surrenders. I've seen this in my groups, simply because they aren't used to the setting, but this is when we need to discuss with them afterward to teach them.

So, I'm against the removal of the Low Skill category for this. It is clear that most of the time, these skills aren't well recieved, no need to bundle up the Skills. It's kinda wierd because some people said that some skills should be split up to facilitate the comprehension of the skill and they agree with this idea of grouping up skills now. I'm kinda confused...

Edit: I want to note that I really like what Kinzen is doing, even if I will not use it. I fully respect the redesign suggestion he's proposing and I encourage these kind of stuffs. I basically do some redesign when I feel like there's a problem with a rule or when there's a hole in the system, which is something I've said a lot in the other discussion about the "Holes in the system". I'm just giving feedbacks and ask question about the idea to help the elaboration of it because the only way to improve an existing system is by giving feedback or questionning some idea.

There's already precedent in the writeup for Stealth that sometimes it can be used honorably. That doesn't really change just because the header above it now says "Bugei" instead of "Low." There is also precedent for "this skill is fine unless you use it dishonorably, in which case it counts as Low and you lose Honor," in the form of Sincerity (Honesty vs. Deceit), which is why there are asterisks next to Intimidation and Temptation. I'm just extending those principles a bit further -- getting rid of the ghetto, but not the concept it represents -- for the sake of creating a mechanical framework which supports the idea that there is not, in fact, a bright and easily-avoided line between honor and dishonor. The boundary between them is sometimes hard to see, and a samurai can step across it without consciously deciding to -- that commanding order he just gave was delivered too threateningly, that smile was a bit too seductive. The *player* knows they're crossing the line (either because they choose to, or because the GM warns them they're about to do something dishonorable), but it's much easier IC to follow your base impulses across that boundary. Which, to me, makes stories about Bushido far more interesting.

There's already precedent in the writeup for Stealth that sometimes it can be used honorably.

Couldn't find this in your post.

Out of curiosity, when can stealth be used honorably?

Stealth can be used in a honorable way when you are on a scouting mission or when you ar hunting. The book actually excludes both as mentioned in the Skil Stealth at page 145 of the core book"Allthough generally a dishonorable practice, stealth has its uses in such siuations as hunting or while scouting during a millitary engagement. For most samurai however, these are necessary evils and under any other circumstance, no honorbale souls will ever dare to disgrace themself..."

So thi paragrap says that Stealth is acceptable and not dishonorbale when used to eithe rhunt or scout.

Stealth can be used in a honorable way when you are on a scouting mission or when you ar hunting. The book actually excludes both as mentioned in the Skil Stealth at page 145 of the core book"Allthough generally a dishonorable practice, stealth has its uses in such siuations as hunting or while scouting during a millitary engagement. For most samurai however, these are necessary evils and under any other circumstance, no honorbale souls will ever dare to disgrace themself..."

So thi paragrap says that Stealth is acceptable and not dishonorbale when used to eithe rhunt or scout.

Thanks for answer .

There's already precedent in the writeup for Stealth that sometimes it can be used honorably. That doesn't really change just because the header above it now says "Bugei" instead of "Low." There is also precedent for "this skill is fine unless you use it dishonorably, in which case it counts as Low and you lose Honor," in the form of Sincerity (Honesty vs. Deceit), which is why there are asterisks next to Intimidation and Temptation.

You shouldn't use precedents as "common behaviours". When you see Sincerity with Deceit emphases as Low Skill, it's because the common usage of Sincerity is a High Skill, it is how a Samurai should act. I already said that Stealth is fine in very specific cases, I'll quote: "Although generally a dishonorable practice , stealth has its uses in such siuations as hunting or while scouting during a millitary engagement." I focus on generally a dishonorable practice because this is why it is a Low Skill.

I understand the reason that some think it's stupid to see this as a Low Skill, but the reason is based on the point of view. Most are thinking from the character point of view, where he will use Stealth for hunting and scouting, which is why this is written in the skill description. However, when taking the general view of the skill, from the point of view that I pointed out, which is the Emperor point of view. Stealth means hiding for ambushes, sneaking for assassination or hiding items in his cloths. These acts are commonly used by bandits, creatures and assassins which from the point of view of the society is wrong.

The point of view that needs to be used to know if the Skill is a Low Skill or not is based on the society, not every Samurai will be scouting ahead, in fact it's a very small part of the army that will use Stealth for scouting in a military engagement. The only one that may be more debatable is for hunting but the usage is very limited that I cannot understand why it should be considered a Bugei Skill since most of the time it will be considered a Low Skill. This is why I don't think it's a good idea to move it up to a Bugei Skill.

As for Temptation and Intimidation being emphases instead of their own Skills, I feel like it's grouping up two Skills that are already large that it may cause Courtier skill being too strong. Right now, Intimidation is used for bullying, torture and controling (control as being a longterm usage like caging someone and breaking his mind after months/years of mistreatments). Seduction is more about about seduction and bribery. Courtier is about discussion manipulation, rhetoric and gossips. By combining all of these, I feel like it's a "One Skill To Rule Them All" Skills. I will say that with a Courtier Skill like that, I think that the Bayushi Courtier is the most OP courtier school because he wants all of these and now it's on a single skills? What a nice deal. Which is why I kinda think they should be separate skills, for balancement issues. The main reason I don't think a Bayushi Courtier is being OP is because he needs to spread his Skills to get those Low Skills while he needs to get his normal High Skills. By fusing the Low Skills in the "High Skill" counterparts is giving him the edge he was lacking.

The very concept of "Low Skills" is kinda silly IMO, but then, in our own modern real culture there are some people who blame the tool for how it's used, so...

Yes, I meant in the 4e writeup, not mine. :-) This post focused only on social stuff.

I'm reluctant to get into this because I fear it may turn into another one of these circular discussions, but...

Crawd, I'm afraid I just don't find your definition of a Low Skill a very useful one.

The whole idea of the "Low Skills" is this: Is it acceptable to use this skill against the Emperor?

Yes, it is certainly dishonorable to use Stealth to sneak up on the Emperor. It is also horribly dishonorable to use Kenjutsu to take a whack at him with your sword, Horsemanship to ride your Utaku steed into his throne room uninvited, Hunting to track and snare his pet peacocks, Poetry to write mean haiku about him, or Ikebana to artfully stick a flower arrangement up his nose. Almost no skill is ever "acceptable to use against the Emperor," so this rule is no help at all in making useful distinctions.

A more useful definition---in the sense of helps us make specific in/out determinations about which skills belong in this group --is "skills which will never be required to discharge the duties of an honorable samurai or law-abiding heimin," i.e. stuff you would only know if you've been up to no good.

Does Stealth have a perfectly acceptable use as part of an honorable and law-abiding life? Yeah. Is that, in fact, the use of Stealth I see being rolled close to 90% of the time? Yeah. Insisting that the whole thing needs to be a Low Skill (for any reason other than Tradition! ) is like insisting Sincerity be a Low Skill because it includes Deceit. Just mark certain less-used Emphases (Ambush, Spell Casting, etc) as Low or Dishonorable, and you're good.

As for Temptation and Intimidation being emphases instead of their own Skills, I feel like it's grouping up two Skills that are already large that it may cause Courtier skill being too strong. Right now, Intimidation is used for bullying, torture and controling (control as being a longterm usage like caging someone and breaking his mind after months/years of mistreatments). Seduction is more about about seduction and bribery. Courtier is about discussion manipulation, rhetoric and gossips. By combining all of these, I feel like it's a "One Skill To Rule Them All" Skills.

If you read the OP attentively, you'll see that it already addresses this. Gossip, negotiation, and rhetoric are broken off into a different skill--Politics--along with Bureaucracy and a few other things. The focus of Courtier is narrowed to influencing people through personal interaction. Right now Bayushi Courtiers have Courtier (Gossip) and Temptation in their school skill list (but not actually, I'll point out, Intimidation); under this revision presumably they'd have Courtier (Temptation) and Politics, or else Politics (Gossip) and Courtier. Easy peasy.

~

I've been thinking about the Low Skill thing (still a tangent, I know! Sorry!), and if I were Empress of L5R and were implementing most of these changes, I think I'd still keep Crafty. I quite like that just as there are multi-skill advantages for being an artistic person or a martial genius, there's one for being a shifty bastard. You'd just have to furnish it with a list of applicable skills instead of a general category-tag. Something like:

"Your rank in all of the following skills is considered 1 rank higher than it already is: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Thrown Weapons [which I'd create whilst getting rid of Ninjutsu, because I think Athletics does enough useful stuff already], Sincerity (Deceit only), Courtier (Intimidation and Temptation only), all Lore skills marked as Dishonorable, all Craft skills marked as Dishonorable. This additional rank is not counted when calculating Insight. If you wish to purchase one of these skills, you must purchase it at Rank 1 as normal, and when purchased after character creation the first rank for all the listed skills except Sincerity costs 2 experience points instead of 1 (all subsequent ranks cost as usual)."

If some of that language looks slightly different from Kinzen's, it's because I am lazy and just swiped it from 3E, with modifications.

I've been thinking about the Low Skill thing (still a tangent, I know! Sorry!), and if I were Empress of L5R and were implementing most of these changes, I think I'd still keep Crafty. I quite like that just as there are multi-skill advantages for being an artistic person or a martial genius, there's one for being a shifty bastard. You'd just have to furnish it with a list of applicable skills instead of a general category-tag. Something like:

"Your rank in all of the following skills is considered 1 rank higher than it already is: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Thrown Weapons [which I'd create whilst getting rid of Ninjutsu, because I think Athletics does enough useful stuff already], Sincerity (Deceit only), Courtier (Intimidation and Temptation only), all Lore skills marked as Dishonorable, all Craft skills marked as Dishonorable. This additional rank is not counted when calculating Insight. If you wish to purchase one of these skills, you must purchase it at Rank 1 as normal, and when purchased after character creation the first rank for all the listed skills except Sincerity costs 2 experience points instead of 1 (all subsequent ranks cost as usual)."

If some of that language looks slightly different from Kinzen's, it's because I am lazy and just swiped it from 3E, with modifications.

I cut it mostly because I felt like the advantage got too complicated when I tried to pour it into the shape of the others -- as your wording demonstrates. It would work fine with the original form (where it only makes your rolls always skilled), but with the XP cost increase, on skills which can also be used honorably . . . it just felt like more trouble than it was worth.

Edit: come to think of it, though, there's no reason the original form couldn't be kept. I don't like that for most of the other skillfaker advantages, because it makes you into more of a dilettante than a Renaissance man samurai -- but it can work for Crafty.