Call of the Ravens and reinforce (when overlord's turn stating) happen at the same time,

Can I kill a master monster with Call of the Ravens and put it by reinforce ?

This looks like a healing, and my friend feels strange...(he spoke in a murmur...)

Because I took this with rats...

Call of the Ravens and reinforce (when overlord's turn stating) happen at the same time,

Can I kill a master monster with Call of the Ravens and put it by reinforce ?

This looks like a healing, and my friend feels strange...(he spoke in a murmur...)

Because I took this with rats...

Raven summoning and start of turn reinforcements happen at the same time. So, you could summon the raven, deal 4 damage to a monster, and defeat it, then place that same monster with reinforcements. Yes.

As Zaltyre said, this is a powerful and legal play. It is one of the many reasons Call of the Ravens is one of the most powerful overlord cards available, as it often times gives the overlord a 'free' monster.

As a side note, by my understanding if the Raven is already in play and you use Call of the Ravens then it is the existing raven that is moved. A new raven is not created. This means any buffs you have given it through other Unkindness cards, as well as any damage or conditions it has suffered will remain with the raven.

I am still of the opinion that like a familiar, it would be a fresh, new raven flock in terms of damage and conditions. Cards that get discarded when the raven flock is "defeated" I think would be unaffected.

I am still of the opinion that like a familiar, it would be a fresh, new raven flock in terms of damage and conditions. Cards that get discarded when the raven flock is "defeated" I think would be unaffected.

Is there a ruling on that one Zaltyre?

If that is true, then I think the word 'place' would need to be a keyword in the glossary that is more loaded than the word would suggest, because all the card says is to 'place' the Raven flock.

I realize familiar spells like "Raise Dead" say the same word, but for them I assume the player typically discards the familiar first (something they can do for free during their turn. and something the Overlord player cannot do) and then plays the skill, because in almost all cases the hero wants a brand new familiar if they actually use that skill while one is already on the map.

I'm not aware of one- and you're right, most familiars say they can be discarded whenever, whereas raven rules say take it from its current location. Sometimes "place" implies "from off the map" such as reinforcements, but sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it is preceded by an instruction to remove something from the map, and sometimes it is not (though I think that ends up being more of a physical instruction to not go through other figures.)

I'll see if I can find anything of a past response and/or ask a question.

Rules Question:

When familiars get "summoned" while already on the map, they are first "discarded" and come back fresh.

1) Does this apply to a servant like the raven as well? That is:

a) Is the Raven first discarded (removed from the map,) or just placed in a new space?

b) If the raven is discarded, does it remove damage/conditions?

c) If the raven is discarded/ removed from the map, does this count as being "defeated," such as for OL cards?

Thanks!

Answer:

1a) Yes, the Raven Flock is removed from the map.

1b) Yes, it clears all damage and conditions.

1c) No, the Raven Flock has not been defeated, simply removed and placed. Any Overlord cards that trigger being discarded off the Raven Flock being defeated remain in play.

Cheers,

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

Good to know. I've been doing this one wrong then.

Thanks Zaltyre!

I think this does suggest the term "place" actually has greater significance than it appears and would be a good term for the glossary. However, the word 'place' is also used in other contexts, such as "Oath of Honor" wherein it doesn't work the same way.

Thus, I guess this applies when 'placing' non-hero objects.

If we use this ruling combined with how 'placing' of familiars work, it says to me that "placing a non-hero object" on the map means:

1) Check to see how many of the object you are allowed to place. With summoned stones, it could be more than 1 object, with most things like Reanimate/Raven Flock/Skye, there is only 1 object. However, there is an exception where you are copying the skill of another creature, in which case you get your own personal count of the thing: (e.g. Sahla)

2) If the limit to the amount you can place has not been met, simply place a new object on the map.

However, if the limit has been reached, you must choose one object already in play and rremove it from the game/map. Then place a brand new instance of the object. The object was never defeated.

And I thought Descent movement rules were complicated

The words are heavy- there is a lot in the phrasing- it's why the glossary is a thing.

So if I am playing the Shadow Walker and I have my Shadow Soul on the map and have Endless Void( Each time a Shadow Soul is discarded due to your class skills, you recover 1 health and 1 fatigue .) and Faithful Friend( Exhaust this card at the start of your turn to place a Shadow soul in a space within 3 space of you .), I can recover 1 health and 1 fatigue each time I use Faithful Friend?

I think so. However, this is different than skills that say "discars this card to..." those do not happen automatically just because you discard.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't use Endless Void in this way. Faithful Friend lets you replace the Shadow Soul, but I don't think you 'discard' the shadow soul, you simply remove and place it.

Again, terminology is very tricky and specific here.

Defeated vs. Discard vs. Remove from the map

I've always played it that you have to use a skill like Dark Servant to trigger the "Endless Void" heal, as these cards explicitly say to "discard" the shadow soul.

Endless Void would be pretty overpowered otherwise, as then it essentially becomes "Heal 1 stamina and 1 heart at the start of every turn", in addition to its other benefits.

You raise a good point, Charmy, but I am unsure. Checking...

The shadow walker has skills that require him to discard his shadow soul.

Faithful friend lets him put it back on the map. So no, you cannot use Endless Void like that, it has to be one of the other skills like Shadow Step (exhaust card, place shadow walker in space containing shadow soul, discard shadow soul to perform an attack) or Dark Servant (Exhaust card, search within 3, then discard shadow soul)

After using those skills, you gain the 1 health and one stamina and can then use faithful friend to bring your shadow back using Soul Bound if you have an action left, or at the start of your next turn using Faithful Friend if you don't.

I've put the question to FFG. I agree that benefits from "discard X to..." abilities don't happen unless you overtly discard it for that purpose (that is, discarding X is a cost of the ability. You don't gain a MP for using a 1 fatigue skill just because you suffered a fatigue.)

However, if placing the shadow soul (when it is already on the map) does discard it, that's a definite maybe (analogous to "each time you suffer a fatigue, gain a MP- it wouldn't matter why you suffered the fatigue.)

Then, we get into direct and indirect ability effects, like the argument about Soothing Insight not actually being a healing ability. In the same fashion, soul bound might not be a "soul discarding" ability.

I could see it either way.

I've put the question to FFG. I agree that benefits from "discard X to..." abilities don't happen unless you overtly discard it for that purpose (that is, discarding X is a cost of the ability. You don't gain a MP for using a 1 fatigue skill just because you suffered a fatigue.)

However, if placing the shadow soul (when it is already on the map) does discard it, that's a definite maybe (analogous to "each time you suffer a fatigue, gain a MP- it wouldn't matter why you suffered the fatigue.)

Then, we get into direct and indirect ability effects, like the argument about Soothing Insight not actually being a healing ability. In the same fashion, soul bound might not be a "soul discarding" ability.

I could see it either way.

The thing is that the shadow soul is not "discarded", just removed and replaced.

The skills I listed clearly state you have to "discard" it, and you have to use another skill to replace it on the map.

Kara clearly stated in the OP reply that the Raven flock does not trigger any cards that require "discard" if a new flock is simply summoned even if it is considered a new flock.

ETA: otherwise, the OL could draw a card every time a hero used a skill or ability that removes him from the map, as that's the same as defeated/discarded...

See, what I'm suggesting is that maybe "discarded" and "defeated" are not the same thing. That it could perhaps be discarded but not defeated. In her reply she just said that cards "discarded when the raven is defeated" don't get discarded. She did not say the raven is not discarded.

See, what I'm suggesting is that maybe "discarded" and "defeated" are not the same thing. That it could perhaps be discarded but not defeated. In her reply she just said that cards "discarded when the raven is defeated" don't get discarded. She did not say the raven is not discarded.

I agree with you... Discarded is not the same as defeated, and in either case, a raven (or other figure) removed from the board and replaced on the board is neither of those things...

The results are in. The raven is "removed and placed." This does NOT constitute the raven being discarded, but does cause damage and conditions to be discarded from it:

Paul,

Which would mean the Endless Void does not trigger when Faithful Servant is used. Good to know, thank you.

On 11/10/2015 at 11:25 PM, Zaltyre said:

Raven summoning and start of turn reinforcements happen at the same time. So, you could summon the raven, deal 4 damage to a monster, and defeat it, then place that same monster with reinforcements. Yes.

Hello, and it is posible for example, FIRST reinforce a monster at start of OL turn, and THEN use kill that recent reinforce to smmon a raven flock???

Yes. Things that happen "at the same time" (are triggered directly by the same event) happen in whichever order the active player (player whose turn it is) chooses.

At the overlord's "start of turn" he can:

-summon a raven servant

-place a reinforcement monster (for this quest)

-play Dark Charm (if he has it)

He can do those three things in whichever order he likes.

Notably, the FIRST thing he does is draw a card. That always happens first. This is not necessarily true.

Zaltyre, I think you do still have the old version of the OL summary card in mind. On the current version step 1.I. is "Draw 1 Overlord card and start of turn abilities.". Thus, you can chose when to draw an OL card in this step, even after reforcing monsters, playing Dark Charm, or other start of turn abities and effects.

23 hours ago, Sadgit said:

Zaltyre, I think you do still have the old version of the OL summary card in mind. On the current version step 1.I. is "Draw 1 Overlord card and start of turn abilities.". Thus, you can chose when to draw an OL card in this step, even after reforcing monsters, playing Dark Charm , or other start of turn abities and effects.

I sent you an email with my last reference. It may be outdated.

After conferring with Sadgit, we have determined that the overlord summary card and p8 of the rulebook put "draw card" and "start of turn abilities" at the same time. p10 has drawing the card clearly first.

I think since ANA is likely never going to alter these discrepancies (and since it doesn't affect much anyway) drawing anytime during the start of turn is probably the best way to play.