Yeah I understand but what Im getting at is, can an opponent waste tokens or once a round abilities by declaring them even though they will have no effect, or is the whole modify dice step skipped?

The FAQ recently clarified tokens could be spent even if the required symbols were not rolled. (I guess to buff abilities like Garvan Dreis') and this seems like it could be the flip side of that?

Tokens can be spent even if they would have no effect. Only time this is not true is if another effect (lie Jax's ability) keeps one from spending the token.

If you look at spending tokens when they have no effect as modifying zero dice then it is very easy to see how abilities like that of Omega Leader should be applied.

Yeah, I figured as much, was only shooting angles here trying to squeeze a bit more juice from an already powerful ability

For me Tie/FOs are comparable to A-wings. FOs got BRs & segnors instead of boost (&hull->shield). But basicly they both are too costly for their firepower. That means that if you are going to swarm, better take more guns (= original TIE / Z-95). If you are going to block, TIE/FO / A-wing are better. Now even if I compare TIE/FO and A-wing and their dials are quite similar, they fly very differently. TIE/FO has its mobility due segnors & BRs ; it moves around in smaller space. A-wing gets 2 K-turns & boost (& 2 more green forwards), it moves huge distances even from stressed condition. They feel totally different.

Comparsions:
Epsilon Squadron / Prototype / Black Squadron + Crack Shot: Epsilon squadron moves way better in smaller space & has more options there. I like it a wee bit more than prototype A-wing. A-wing has better upgrade possibility (Autothrusters), but I think low cost modules should be upgraded with care. Also its likely that tech will soon be better than its now (though better than AT? I doubt it, unless something gravy is noticed by FFG). Black squadron is here for comparsion. Its far better in duels / joust (fires before TLTs & gets damage done to hard targets), but when you have to move around, A-wing & FO are far better (& can take turn round to get TL, if they don't just get arc right).

Zeta Squadron: Unlike others, I find this step almost useless. Blocking is harder & Crack shot for 2pt (1 for upgrade & 1 for talent) is just worth it every time you get to use it. And you get to use it almost every time. Actually Shuttle has 2.1 points per HP and then its way higher. So commonly, if you get to use Crack Shot 50/50 of time its well worth 2pt. And you get more than that.

Omega Squadron / Green 17pts: Here FOs have 1 better PS, Greens have even more upgrade advantage. We are still in so low cost models that I think I would take Omega more often (if they were in same pool, which they aren't).

Zeta Ace 18pt: Wow. I feel Epsilon Squadron & Omega were priced right for their efficiency. Now Zeta Ace has very good pilot ability & 1PS for 1pt over Omegas. That is a bargain. Use this guy in competitive lists.

Epsilon Leader 19pt: If you consider Omega with wingman, don't. This guy does it much better. I however don't like him so much as I don't usually consider wingman & no EPT.

Omega Ace 20pt: Needs too many actions to get hits. Usually you get hits easier. Well its 7PS & EPT, so if your meta is crowded with non-VI brobots, you might consider him. Otherwise don't

Omega leader 21pt: Cheap ship that holds his own at the end. Either VI for 22pt or Juke & Comm relay for 26 pt. I wouldn't boost him much further. If you like to use more points, look for another ship type.

All in all solid ship, but I wouldn't use in swarms (at least not only). Maybe 3xBlack Squadron + Crack Shot & 2xOmega + Crack Shot & Howl + Crack Shot. So the omegas fill corners of swarm and can get out with segnors 6 hold a bit better enemy fire. Yeah maybe, but for firepower use Mauler & Scourge instead of Omegas (when Scourge gets out, now is time for Omegas).

I stopped comparing As & Fos when pilot talents entered, since they vary so much. But I will say this: FOs get named pilots much cheaper and at least 2 of them are good.

Now I'm probably channeling my inner ParaGoomba here, but say I'm attacking a Fat Falcon I have target locked with my Omega Leader and Falcon player declares a zero roll with 3P0. I remind him he cannot modify his defence dice because of OL's pilot ability, but has 3P0 been burnt for the round because he declared it?

Similarly can tokens be spent even though the dice cannot be modified by them?

C-3P0 adds results, not modifies dice. I think that his power would still work.

I'd want to get a ruling on the "spend token when you can't modify" idea. Here is the wording from the rules:

Modify Defense Dice: The attacker can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the defense dice. Then the defender can modify his defense dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible:

- Focus: The defender can spend a focus token to change all of his <focus> results to <evade> results.

That to me says you modify by spending a token, and since you can't modify, you can't spend.

But I'd still want to see a FAQ entry.

Now I'm probably channeling my inner ParaGoomba here, but say I'm attacking a Fat Falcon I have target locked with my Omega Leader and Falcon player declares a zero roll with 3P0. I remind him he cannot modify his defence dice because of OL's pilot ability, but has 3P0 been burnt for the round because he declared it?

Similarly can tokens be spent even though the dice cannot be modified by them?

C-3P0 adds results, not modifies dice. I think that his power would still work.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192316-omega-leader-and-addding-results/

Now I'm probably channeling my inner ParaGoomba here, but say I'm attacking a Fat Falcon I have target locked with my Omega Leader and Falcon player declares a zero roll with 3P0. I remind him he cannot modify his defence dice because of OL's pilot ability, but has 3P0 been burnt for the round because he declared it?

Similarly can tokens be spent even though the dice cannot be modified by them?

C-3P0 adds results, not modifies dice. I think that his power would still work.

Now I'm probably channeling my inner ParaGoomba here, but say I'm attacking a Fat Falcon I have target locked with my Omega Leader and Falcon player declares a zero roll with 3P0. I remind him he cannot modify his defence dice because of OL's pilot ability, but has 3P0 been burnt for the round because he declared it?

Similarly can tokens be spent even though the dice cannot be modified by them?

C-3P0 adds results, not modifies dice. I think that his power would still work.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192316-omega-leader-and-addding-results/

Related: I dislike the way that the Armada and new core set rule books are organized. Feels like I have to jump around a lot to make sure that I haven't missed something important. :/

Yup, my reading says that you can't use focus against Omega leader (since using focus is modifying dice). And Garven etc is also modifying dice for 0 result (so that is also off limits). However we will soon need more accurate timing schedule. My understanding is that now its everything else is modifying dice. When its done then there is compare results with: 1) Crack Shot 2) Bossk (pilot, not crew) 3) Prince Xizor & Draw their fire ; however its fuzzy and reading like a devil the one with init should do things first. So if one crack shotted a crit in, other couldn't use Draw their fire (if first in init), since their turn to do things already passed. Hopefully we get a better timing for next FAQ (to get rid of only 2nd player being able to use Palp lock = ion projector palp mobile) etc. I could do it

I mean the opponent should always be able to respond to your reaction (in a resolution step). Example palp shuttle (or anything with ion projector) with ion projector goes like this currently (assuming you are already ionized when you fly in):

You take a white 1 (since you are ionized). If you are the first player(=have initiative), you clear the ions (since its done after movement). Then 2nd player uses ion projector and you are ionized again.

However, if you are 2nd player, the first player uses ion projector first. Irregardless what happened you then clear all ion. <- This is really ruling now.

So if we were to **** dots, currently first player could use Draw Their Fire / Xizor, before 2nd player could use Bossk (crit to 2 hits) ("Compare Results"). That is of course bull ****. So they should officially change the resolution so that first player can use any effects, then 2nd, then 1st, then 2nd etc... until both have passed (if they are simultaneous). So in ion example (2nd one) 1st player chooses not to use ion projector first, then 2nd player could choose to clear ion or also pass. If 2nd passes, 1st player could use ion. Same for Bossk. In fact people already play like this. Its just not the rules currently. Currently the one having init should do everything first.

I think Riku Riekkinen makes a really good point about FOs vs A-wings. On paper they're so similar, but the Barrel Roll and S-loops make the FO such a short-range, lateral fighter. I'mactually finding the dial an amazing compliment to the TIE Defender, as they can both dwell in the same general area for a long time.

I think Riku Riekkinen makes a really good point about FOs vs A-wings. On paper they're so similar, but the Barrel Roll and S-loops make the FO such a short-range, lateral fighter. I'mactually finding the dial an amazing compliment to the TIE Defender, as they can both dwell in the same general area for a long time.

"Omega Leader" (21)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Comm Relay (3)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Emperor Palpatine (8)

Colonel Vessery (35)

Crack Shot (1)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Stealth Device (3)

Total: 100

I think Riku Riekkinen makes a really good point about FOs vs A-wings. On paper they're so similar, but the Barrel Roll and S-loops make the FO such a short-range, lateral fighter. I'mactually finding the dial an amazing compliment to the TIE Defender, as they can both dwell in the same general area for a long time.

The Segnor Loop 2 is a wonderful maneuver, especially when the dial also have a hard 2 to clear the stress next turn. Then combine it with a barrel roll (2 in the case of Zeta Ace) and just watch the Tie FO dance around. A thing of beauty.

I think Riku Riekkinen makes a really good point about FOs vs A-wings. On paper they're so similar, but the Barrel Roll and S-loops make the FO such a short-range, lateral fighter. I'mactually finding the dial an amazing compliment to the TIE Defender, as they can both dwell in the same general area for a long time.

"Omega Leader" (21)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Comm Relay (3)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Emperor Palpatine (8)

Colonel Vessery (35)

Crack Shot (1)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Stealth Device (3)

Total: 100

Yep, omega Leader likes Palpatine, since emperor changes dice and enemy can't change back. However I found most success with Omega Leader with 4-5 ships (5 actually). To get enough targets to enemy. Omega leader wants to be a sniper... firing from range 3, disregarding ATs (with emperor hitting). With 3 ships he may use his ability for defense only (sometimes). While its good, Omega is ok tank (VI build moves last and should be in good position, Juke stays back and should get a free shot), he is better sniper.

It's only one /fo, but I feel like this would be hell to play against:

[31] Carnor, PtL, Autothrusters, Royal Guard TIE(because!)

[26] Omega Leader, Juke, Comm Relay

[27] Strom, VI, Sensor Jammer, TIE/x1

[16] Dark Curse

Can I recommend Col. Vessery w/ VI and 4 Epsilon Pilots? Their TL do greatly help Col. Vessery a lot. The low PS works like the Academy Pilots, but you get the extra shield and the S-loop. It's very nice.

Very much this; the first thought I had when I saw the ship was "Oh hey, an imperial A-wing."

The second thought I had was "... And a cheap, semi-durable way to get target-locks on the field. Hello, Vessery!"

A pair of them can do pretty good target spotting/blocking/harrasment for 30pts + PS/upgrades as you see fit.

The second thought I had was "... And a cheap, semi-durable way to get target-locks on the field. Hello, Vessery!"

A pair of them can do pretty good target spotting/blocking/harrasment for 30pts + PS/upgrades as you see fit.

To be fair, the Empire already had this kind of ship before the Tie FO. It was the Tie Bomber. 16 pts for a ship with 6 Hull was really good to tag for Vessery. Plus, their dial fly very well to escort a Defender (only white hard is the 3, access to the 1 bank).

I used to run two with the Colonel. It left just enough point for Soontir with PtL and TC.... it was before Autothrusters. If I was to do it again, I would replace TC for Autothrusters on the Baron and replace VI on the Colonel for the MkII Engine.

Originally I was super game for the generic PS 1's, stating that if I was already flying Academy Pilots and had 3 points left over, a conversion to FO would be well worth it. Then I flew Crack Squadron and now I am of the opinion that you're better off with Crack Squadron for the 15 points.

If you have the extra points to get the EPT generic FO I'd go for it over a Crack Squadron.

Named guys are cool. They have TIE Fighter dials pretty much, only thing they lack that the TIEs have is the 3k I believe, so Epsilon Leader is great in a traditional Howlrunner swarm.

Omega Ace with PtL is great for the points. Makes a good sub-ace unit.

Haven't flown 2 distance barrel roll guy yet, but seems decent as 'premium filler'. I wouldn't dump a bunch of stuff on him but Crackshot and call it a day.

Waiting for the standalone expansion to come out to try 6 of them. I'd rather have Crack Squadrons than the base 15 point FO's though. 3 PS 4 Crack FO's and 3 PS 4 Crack Squadrons? Yes, I can run that now.

Funny thing about Crack Squadron is that at 90 points you can have 6 of them ahahahahaha.

Really good discussion overall peeps

Atm I'm running vessery, 2 epsilons and an ace hunter vader. So far I'm 8-4 with this ship composition (making some upgrade tweaks along the way). It really is fun to fly and is very synergystic as well.

I definitely have to agree with the advantage of the 2-segnor loop - with having a defender and 2 FO's you can make quite a nice 'death zone' where multiple firing arc's coelesce together. The TL action is huge I've found where if both FO's are alive and kicking they just keep their TL's until the late game. It's too bad I can't afford/get comms relay- then these pesky fighters can really put their actions into their savings account.

Just like Jeff said prior the shield is huge as I've been fortunate to negate crits in opening salvo's or accidently passing through asteroids. Everything's coming up milhouse for the TIE/FO

The second thought I had was "... And a cheap, semi-durable way to get target-locks on the field. Hello, Vessery!"

A pair of them can do pretty good target spotting/blocking/harrasment for 30pts + PS/upgrades as you see fit.

To be fair, the Empire already had this kind of ship before the Tie FO. It was the Tie Bomber. 16 pts for a ship with 6 Hull was really good to tag for Vessery. Plus, their dial fly very well to escort a Defender (only white hard is the 3, access to the 1 bank).

I used to run two with the Colonel. It left just enough point for Soontir with PtL and TC.... it was before Autothrusters. If I was to do it again, I would replace TC for Autothrusters on the Baron and replace VI on the Colonel for the MkII Engine.

The problem is that Bombers are kind of bad at fighting at close range (at least for me) Their dial doesn't support it very well. That makes it tough to get much out of their primary attacks.

The second thought I had was "... And a cheap, semi-durable way to get target-locks on the field. Hello, Vessery!"

A pair of them can do pretty good target spotting/blocking/harrasment for 30pts + PS/upgrades as you see fit.

To be fair, the Empire already had this kind of ship before the Tie FO. It was the Tie Bomber. 16 pts for a ship with 6 Hull was really good to tag for Vessery. Plus, their dial fly very well to escort a Defender (only white hard is the 3, access to the 1 bank).

I used to run two with the Colonel. It left just enough point for Soontir with PtL and TC.... it was before Autothrusters. If I was to do it again, I would replace TC for Autothrusters on the Baron and replace VI on the Colonel for the MkII Engine.

The problem is that Bombers are kind of bad at fighting at close range (at least for me) Their dial doesn't support it very well. That makes it tough to get much out of their primary attacks.

It's true that you have to get used to the dial since it doesn't handle like the usual Empire ship, but once I did, this ship is very surprising, especially for only 16pts, a bargain.

For the close range fighting, it has some options: 1 bank, 1 straight and barrel roll. To clear some distance before returning, it has the 5 K-turn. It still can move at speed 4, so its speed is okay. And 6 hull. They still make good blockers too (1 bank/straight+barrel roll).

When I played the team I spoke about earlier, most player were gunning for the Bombers, since the first action I took was a TL to tag for Vessery. So they had to choose between a Bomber with 2 agility and no token or Vessery with 3 agility and a focus. The 6 hull usually meant that the Bomber chosen as a target could live another day, and then I always bailed with him with his TL still active. Now my opponent had the choice to either leave it alone, accepting that Vessery will always shoot at it with a TL or tail him, leaving him open for the rest. It's also worth noting that it was during the 2-ship turret meta, so the damage output was not great: 6 hull was usually enough to live one more round. But in our current meta, the Bomber is still a very good choice against the TLT: 2 agility and 6 hull should be able to take some shot before going down.

But the Tie FO also fit the Vessery scout role perfectly. I already tried it and it was very effective. So, it's up to the taste of the players.... there's also the AC Advanced and the soon to be Advanced Prototype with title (free evade when taking a target lock!)... The Colonel has so many friends these days, it's hard to pick one!

I've played a lot of Tie Bombers and I agree that they can be more agile than expected, but the S-loop really compliments the Defender well. They don't get in it's way when it does the white K-turn. I find it's nice to be able to turn around and still get shots off.

I don't have 4 FO's, but I want to try it with Vessery. I have been running with Maarek w/ VI. You can trade it for Vader, as well. Maybe I should try that and just turtle up Vader every turn as everyone seems to gun for him. I do like to fly Maarek and have him be effective, though. It's such a change from Wave 1.

I didn't mean to badmouth the TIE Bomber's dial, the point I was trying to make was that it can't really stay in one place and fight. FO can occupy so many different places from turn to turn, and does a pretty good job of turning its guns on target when doing so. The Bomber can plow through stuff pretty well, and has nice slow approach options, but it can't dart around a target like the FO can. The dial has the same weaknesses as the Defender, except the Defender can pull the white K-turn to keep the pressure on stuff, making it great in close. Fighting FOs, a target ship just needs to get the heck out of there, because they're going to be able to block a lot of positions, and they're going to get their shots in.

I agree with that.

I didn't mean to badmouth the TIE Bomber's dial, the point I was trying to make was that it can't really stay in one place and fight. FO can occupy so many different places from turn to turn, and does a pretty good job of turning its guns on target when doing so. The Bomber can plow through stuff pretty well, and has nice slow approach options, but it can't dart around a target like the FO can. The dial has the same weaknesses as the Defender, except the Defender can pull the white K-turn to keep the pressure on stuff, making it great in close. Fighting FOs, a target ship just needs to get the heck out of there, because they're going to be able to block a lot of positions, and they're going to get their shots in.

Oh I know. They handle quite differently, that's why I said that it is up to the player's taste and what he wants to bring to complement Vessery. I tried with both (well, three including the Advanced) and they all complement Vessery very well.

I only mentioned the Bomber in answer to Reiver because the Bomber has been there for a loooong time as a cheap, semi-durable ship to gets target-lock on the field. It just seems like most player discredit/forget about the poor Tie Bomber as if you had to take ordnance with it; The Vanilla Bomber is a very nice cheap and resilient little ship. I'm not saying that the Bomber do a better job at it (getting the TL for Vessery), just that the option was already around.

The more I'm thinking about the 20 point window, I don't think it matters in regards to a 5-FO list. If I'm taking 5 FOs, I'm taking 26 points of Omega Leader first (Juke and Comm Relay), then averaging 74 points across the rest of the 4. That could be 4 Crackshot Omegas with 2 points left for some extras. Could also be 2 Epsilons and 2 Omegas with Juke and Relay.

I'm a big fan of the 4x Crack Shot Omegas plus Omega Leader with Juke and Relay. I'm anxiously awaiting my chance to fly that list. =)