So my X-Wing community is relatively and young, and consequently the TOs are a little inexperienced. In the tournaments I've played in, the TO has always been a player as well, and not affiliated with the FLGS where the tournament is being held. The requirement for a second TO when a TO is playing has been handled pretty loosely, to be honest, but I don't have any experiences yet that make me worry that the guy that's been acting as the TO is making questionable rule judgments. He does say that if you forget to declare an action you default to a focus, which I don't love, but it's "fair" insofar as it applies to everyone, I guess.

What does have me concerned is the way the byes have been handled. Now I've never been a TO myself and don't particularly want to be, although I've offered to do the job if necessary to actually make a tournament happen. The point is, I don't know anything about how the tournament software works. I just know that the following situation seems a little problematic:

Twice in a row now, the TO has taken 2nd place (this most recent time the prize support was pretty righteous and he scored an Armada core set, while I took 3rd and got a dice bag). He's also taken a first round bye because we've had an odd number of players.

Does this seem like an issue to anyone? Am I right in understanding that he's starting out 1-0 with perfect MOV? It doesn't seem like anyone else has gotten a bye in later rounds - is that only possible if someone has dropped? If it is a problem, as it seems to me, does anyone know of a better way to assign the bye as fairly as possible?

Hope I don't seem like a whiner. Truth is I went 3-1 and just ended up with the best MOV among players with one loss, so it's totally possible I still would've ended up in third. TO had no losses, but also only played 3 matches.

Anyway, just wanted to get some thoughts on this from the community because I don't want to make a big stink about it if I'm missing something. Thanks for reading.

A free bye has no perfect MoV. I think it´s 150:0.

It is not bad, but neither a real benefit. It can mess up your overall MoV, especially in the first round, where you have the biggest chances to play against unexperiencd players and make better MoV

Byes are 150 MOV not 200

If he is playing I think he should make the first round Bye random but I would like to know how do the other players in you group feel about it

Let me just highlight the eyebrow raiser

...

Twice in a row now, the TO has taken 2nd place

...

IMHO to avoid any accusations of conflicts of interest is that TO should never play in a tournament that they are officiating, even if there is a second TO to oversee the tournament. Also that there was an odd number of players means that it would have been easy for the TO to just stay off and let an even number of players have a round with no byes.

Now giving the benefit of the doubt to the TO, this is assuming that the TO was also officiating and didn't join as a player with no TO responsibilities. TO can play in tournaments, but in the best interest of fairness and being beyond all insinuations and reproach, it is best that the TO does not play in a tournament that they are TOing or if they do they only play the Bye in an odd number of players because they will not be able to win the tournament or affect the tournament rankings.

Byes are 150 MOV not 200

If he is playing I think he should make the first round Bye random but I would like to know how do the other players in you group feel about it

Superbyes are 200 points but that is only after winning a qualifying store tournament or premier event and only applies to the next higher level premier tournament.

My TO almost always plays in the events. Unless the event is huge. I've never had any issues with him at all. In fact, he's dropped or not played to give others chances to avoid byes.

First round bye should be random. After that it's a random person with the lowest tournament points and the same person can't get bye's twice.

In our community the TOs play because stores don't have the resources to provide dedicated TOs. It's not really fair to ask one of the players not to play and TO only instead. As long as there are secondary TOs then I don't see a conflict of interest.

Just follow the rules and everything is fine. Now if the TO is always giving himself the bye then that is a problem and you should remind him that the first round bye should be random.

Let me just highlight the eyebrow raiser

...

Twice in a row now, the TO has taken 2nd place

...

IMHO to avoid any accusations of conflicts of interest is that TO should never play in a tournament that they are officiating, even if there is a second TO to oversee the tournament. Also that there was an odd number of players means that it would have been easy for the TO to just stay off and let an even number of players have a round with no byes.

Now giving the benefit of the doubt to the TO, this is assuming that the TO was also officiating and didn't join as a player with no TO responsibilities. TO can play in tournaments, but in the best interest of fairness and being beyond all insinuations and reproach, it is best that the TO does not play in a tournament that they are TOing or if they do they only play the Bye in an odd number of players because they will not be able to win the tournament or affect the tournament rankings.

Or, he can just skip his rank when handing out prizes.

at our tournies, the TO always plays. small town, xwing tournie maybe every 2 months - would be a shame to sit that out.

also, he scores very highly most times.

and that's because he's a very good player. who also usually gives his opponents the benefit of a doubt, let's them take forgotten actions etc. a very nice guy.

it all comes down to trust, I guess. do you trust your TO to be "fair", then play along and have a good time. does your stomache ache because he beats you/everybody else and ends up taking 1/2 place? better play somewhere else - or maybe simply talk to the guy. suggest random byes and take a sensible approach, put everything on the table that bothers you in a objektive manner.

talk to each other. actually, most people should just do that. clears the air on so many levels that others maybe really don't know about.

yes, the "goal" might be to win, but the reason you play is to have a good time. that goes for anybody, so just talk about how everybody can have that.

As a TO of other systems, my $0.02...

TO should only play to even the player count so there are no byes. I could also see a case if turnout is low, TO can join in creating an odd # of players if it will help add a round to the event. However, in less formal events (i.e., random store event,not some sanctified FFG Store Championship or above), I would personally turn a low attendance event into a round robin format to increase # of rounds played.

TO is NEVER able to win prize support, no matter his/her final ranking. This is a true conflict of interest. Doesn't matter if the TO never even remotely games the system, the *appearance* and/or *potential* it could happen leaves sour grapes among some attendees.

TO'ing is often a tough and thankless job. And many times I wished I could just simply be a player/participant. It sucks to not be able to win prizes, and sucks even more to not be able to play. But it is a necessary job to build a vibrant community. Suggestions: if there is a second TO, have them take turns doing the job; if not, see if someone would be willing to do it every now and then to give the TO a break and let him/her enjoy "just" playing; DEFINITELY have the first round bye be randomized if the TO participates and there's an add # of participants; consider free events without prize support - playing for the sake of playing and having fun (this removes the conflict of interest issue).

Also, it should be noted all the above is for one-off events, and does not apply to leagues or other extended formats (although personally, I still removed myself from prize support running even for those types of organized play I spearheaded).

Hope this helps. Others may disagree with me, which is fine, this is simply how *I* performed TO duties for several years of tournaments and leagues.

Don't be afraid to ask.

It's a good question and glad you asked it

A bye at the beginning of the tournament is to be choosen at random.

It only happens when there is an odd amount of players

There should be a bye every round if nobody drops.

If someone leaves then there should be no more byes as there is now an even amount of players

If not then after the first round I believe the next bye goes to the player with the lowest score, or if more than 1 choosen at random,I could be wrong in this

It does sound suspicious as to what your saying.

Some TO out there don't have a good understanding of the rules and there are some who will slightly bend rules in their favor, sad to say

As for the missing a action thing

That would be fine with me so long as it's not a store championship or regional game

That's how my friends and I usually play during casual games

If someone forgot an action it's focus by default

As a TO of other systems, my $0.02...

TO should only play to even the player count so there are no byes. I could also see a case if turnout is low, TO can join in creating an odd # of players if it will help add a round to the event. However, in less formal events (i.e., random store event,not some sanctified FFG Store Championship or above), I would personally turn a low attendance event into a round robin format to increase # of rounds played.

TO is NEVER able to win prize support, no matter his/her final ranking. This is a true conflict of interest. Doesn't matter if the TO never even remotely games the system, the *appearance* and/or *potential* it could happen leaves sour grapes among some attendees.

TO'ing is often a tough and thankless job. And many times I wished I could just simply be a player/participant. It sucks to not be able to win prizes, and sucks even more to not be able to play. But it is a necessary job to build a vibrant community. Suggestions: if there is a second TO, have them take turns doing the job; if not, see if someone would be willing to do it every now and then to give the TO a break and let him/her enjoy "just" playing; DEFINITELY have the first round bye be randomized if the TO participates and there's an add # of participants; consider free events without prize support - playing for the sake of playing and having fun (this removes the conflict of interest issue).

Also, it should be noted all the above is for one-off events, and does not apply to leagues or other extended formats (although personally, I still removed myself from prize support running even for those types of organized play I spearheaded).

Hope this helps. Others may disagree with me, which is fine, this is simply how *I* performed TO duties for several years of tournaments and leagues.

Some kits do come with prize support for TO such as the store championship kit I believe.

Imo If a TO plays and does well it would be pretty poor of him to accept a prize he or she already received.

However the main prize such as a bye they could receive.

I believe that is how the rules are within ffg op kits.

(been awhile since I looked at the ruling)

I'll 2nd a lot of what I read above. I don't have a problem with a TO playing as long as someone is else is id'd as a 2nd TO. If they do play they should take themselves out of the equation when it comes time to pass out prizes. The missing action thing is troubling but not huge IMO, I don't particularly care for house ruling something that is very clearly stated in the rules.

My concern in your example would be if this TO gave himself a super bye of 200-0 to get off to great start without having played a game. That would be something to look out for in the future with this store/TO. Also, why the huge gap in prize support from 2nd to 3rd place? That in and of itself is enough to bring out some questionable score keeping.

So I understand now that he isn't necessarily starting out 200-0 in MOV, but he is starting out 1-0, right? If he goes undefeated (often he does, he IS a good player) his MOV only matters for ranking him against the other 4-0 players, is that correct?

Given how small our community is, let's take it as a given that the TO is going to play. He's a nice enough guy, and I really think he just hasn't thought this through (though that's starting to get harder to swallow) and it would be a shame for him to not get to play. What then? The bye should just be randomized, and then given to the player with the worst record in subsequent rounds?

He can play, just do a random draw for the bye.

Or

If there is an odd number and you don't want byes then the TO should offer to sit out.

Sucks but comes with the job

So I understand now that he isn't necessarily starting out 200-0 in MOV, but he is starting out 1-0, right? If he goes undefeated (often he does, he IS a good player) his MOV only matters for ranking him against the other 4-0 players, is that correct?

Given how small our community is, let's take it as a given that the TO is going to play. He's a nice enough guy, and I really think he just hasn't thought this through (though that's starting to get harder to swallow) and it would be a shame for him to not get to play. What then? The bye should just be randomized, and then given to the player with the worst record in subsequent rounds?

that's how we play it; the bye is random in round1, in 2+ the player with the least points gets it (except for people who already had it, then the next one up).

and it's not to give him a win and cheer him up (maybe a little), but more importantly: you don't want to be "that guy", because you just got 1 game less of xwing.

we are all there to have some games, so no-one is really happy with having 4 instead of 5 games. but at least you get some points for sitting around while others have fun

I'll 2nd a lot of what I read above. I don't have a problem with a TO playing as long as someone is else is id'd as a 2nd TO. If they do play they should take themselves out of the equation when it comes time to pass out prizes. The missing action thing is troubling but not huge IMO, I don't particularly care for house ruling something that is very clearly stated in the rules.

My concern in your example would be if this TO gave himself a super bye of 200-0 to get off to great start without having played a game. That would be something to look out for in the future with this store/TO. Also, why the huge gap in prize support from 2nd to 3rd place? That in and of itself is enough to bring out some questionable score keeping.

$100 Armada Core Set for second place versus $5 (at most?) dice bag for third is absolutely ridiculous. What did first place get?

Playing Devil's Advocate here... I think most people who have posted can agree that being TO is a (mostly) thankless job and things need to be fair. But in most smaller communities, it's usually one of the better players that has the best understanding of the rules and is passionate enough about playing the game to be willing to organize events and tournaments. So because of their dedication and love for the game, it's somehow fair to make them sit out of playing a game they love? It's also fair to make them skip themselves in passing out prizes? Granted most prizes are the cash equivalent of a McDonald's value meal, but a trophy is a trophy.

I was asked by a new FLGS about running their X-wing tournaments since I've had some success with getting a group of 12ish friends out to my house to play in the basement. Ironically enough, one of the reasons possibly keeping me from doing this is being unable to play in the tournaments I organize since this thread proves the idea of TO abuse is a potential. Plus it would also be cool to pick up a trophy to showcase the skills I've been gaining. On the other hand, I know if I don't take on the task, it probably won't get done since the store owner isn't an X-wing player.

In my opinion, the "fly casual" idea should be extended to these circumstances as well, especially in smaller communities. I also feel that a little bit of transparency as the TO might help alleviate most concerns. For example, using tournament software and letting everyone see the standings easily, random with byes and showing the process used to determine who gets it, etc.

Let me just highlight the eyebrow raiser

...

Twice in a row now, the TO has taken 2nd place

...

IMHO to avoid any accusations of conflicts of interest is that TO should never play in a tournament that they are officiating, even if there is a second TO to oversee the tournament. Also that there was an odd number of players means that it would have been easy for the TO to just stay off and let an even number of players have a round with no byes.

Now giving the benefit of the doubt to the TO, this is assuming that the TO was also officiating and didn't join as a player with no TO responsibilities. TO can play in tournaments, but in the best interest of fairness and being beyond all insinuations and reproach, it is best that the TO does not play in a tournament that they are TOing or if they do they only play the Bye in an odd number of players because they will not be able to win the tournament or affect the tournament rankings.

Or, he can just skip his rank when handing out prizes.

Agreed, however in the case stated by the op that clearly was not the case.

...

Twice in a row now, the TO has taken 2nd place (this most recent time the prize support was pretty righteous and he scored an Armada core set, while I took 3rd and got a dice bag). He's also taken a first round bye because we've had an odd number of players.

...

Now I understand that there is two sides to each story. So to make judgement on the OPs post alone is unfair. But still here are some reasonable causes of concerns.

1. TO participating as both contestant and official. Now as mentioned before this is permitted by FFGs TO guidelines. A TO playing in his own tournament is not a bad thing, if it is a real small tournament like 3 or 4 players then sure it can be reasonable for the TO to fill in.
2. TO playing in a tournament that already has an even number and receiving the bye. Now I can see the TO playing in an odd number of players and the TO playing against the bye as it will not affect rankings but clearly this was already an even number of players. Now it might not be clear from the OP if the TO received the bye at random or if the TO gave himself the bye. The latter clearly puts the TO at fault.
3. TO receiving prizes at a tournament as a player. Sorry but this raises some red flags. Especially when the prize was an $80-$100 Armada core set. I'm still shaking my head over this. Even if the TO was the store owner still placing a prize to attract players to a tournament then winning it yourself is sketchy in terms of business ethics. Especially when 3rd place was just regular FFG tournament support kits.

Again, these concerns are unfounded as they are only from the perspective of the OP, and also the TO has not had the opportunity to clarify his position. There needs to be more corroboration on this story before taking it as fact.

I'll 2nd a lot of what I read above. I don't have a problem with a TO playing as long as someone is else is id'd as a 2nd TO. If they do play they should take themselves out of the equation when it comes time to pass out prizes. The missing action thing is troubling but not huge IMO, I don't particularly care for house ruling something that is very clearly stated in the rules.

My concern in your example would be if this TO gave himself a super bye of 200-0 to get off to great start without having played a game. That would be something to look out for in the future with this store/TO. Also, why the huge gap in prize support from 2nd to 3rd place? That in and of itself is enough to bring out some questionable score keeping.

$100 Armada Core Set for second place versus $5 (at most?) dice bag for third is absolutely ridiculous. What did first place get?

First place for choice of a Tantive or Raider. Was an expensive tournament - $25 entry fee, but proceeds were for a local charity. In all it was a really cool event and a ton of fun. Just a couple of the players that, along with me, have been at this FLGS from the start, building this community, were a little annoyed at how this has gone down. Especially when the store staff said TO wouldn't be eligible for prizes. In the end, he pushed others down the ranking and took home a sweet prize. As suggested above, I think a little more transparency is in order.

Then speak up to the store owner about this TO

Another option.

Download the current faq and tournament rules

Go over it

Ask questions here and TO yourself

There is nothing saying this guy has to be the TO.

Tell the store owner you want to TO the next event.

Or

Be the second TO at the very least.

Unless the TO is the Store owner, but even so, tell him you'd like to do it and give it a try.

As I said before a TO and playing in a event is fine.

If the kit has prizes for the TO then it was be pretty bad if he placed and accepted both prizes.

Right there he should be thrown from the store imo.

However If the kit has no prize support for TO, then if he wins, that is fine.

Some area like mine your lucky to get a couple tournament a year, so I wouldn't expect any TO to sit out and miss out on prizes.

So long as it's done fairly and everyone plays by the rules, and there needs to be a second TO to make calling in the original TO games

First off. Different people are going to think of this in different ways.

As a TO and only doing one tournament this is how I did it. I tried to fallow everything by the FFG rules as close as possible. I had 9 people including myself play on holiday weekend. I set everything up with virtually no help from the FLGS. Which I was fine with even though I used my own money for markers and stickers for there astroids. I made everything on easy mode.

With that being said. I tried to make everything open as well. Had some people look up everyone's list. Had two check mine. Also I do all the mark ups on exel on my computer for everyone to see.

Prizes went out to everyone who placed including myself. The 17 upgrade cards that came with it, everyone got two, but me.

I have no problem running tournaments for my FLGS and using some of my own money past the 5 dollar entry fee. But call me evil or uncharitable but I don't plan on doing it for free. I want that chance. Now a Store championship I would never take part (since we get something).

I enjoy playing, but I want to play just like everyone else.

I'll 2nd a lot of what I read above. I don't have a problem with a TO playing as long as someone is else is id'd as a 2nd TO. If they do play they should take themselves out of the equation when it comes time to pass out prizes. The missing action thing is troubling but not huge IMO, I don't particularly care for house ruling something that is very clearly stated in the rules.

My concern in your example would be if this TO gave himself a super bye of 200-0 to get off to great start without having played a game. That would be something to look out for in the future with this store/TO. Also, why the huge gap in prize support from 2nd to 3rd place? That in and of itself is enough to bring out some questionable score keeping.

$100 Armada Core Set for second place versus $5 (at most?) dice bag for third is absolutely ridiculous. What did first place get?

First place for choice of a Tantive or Raider. Was an expensive tournament - $25 entry fee, but proceeds were for a local charity. In all it was a really cool event and a ton of fun. Just a couple of the players that, along with me, have been at this FLGS from the start, building this community, were a little annoyed at how this has gone down. Especially when the store staff said TO wouldn't be eligible for prizes. In the end, he pushed others down the ranking and took home a sweet prize. As suggested above, I think a little more transparency is in order.

So the Store Staff should not have allowed the TO to pick a prize if they said he wasn't eligible and why did you not complain when he did?

It's still not sure wether he gave himself a bye or wether he deliberaty picked a price, knowing he didn't have a right, but you shouldn't have let him claim the prize, but should have called the Store staff.

the combination of 'High entry cost' & 'TO not being eligible for prizes' & 'Only 1st and 2nd can get valuable prizes' & 'TO giving himself a bye' (if it wasn't random) & 'TO claiming the 2nd prize' should have caused an uproar.

I don't blame you for feeling weird, a $25 tournament sure starts to raise some expectations. Especially with the "casual" nature of how everything is, hosting a high stakes winner-take-all (almost) tournament will bring out different people than a $5 "everyone-gets-something" type of tournament. I would expect that a $25 tournament be run as a premier event. I think regionals were that much this year, right? That's the level of judging, organization, etc, that I expect from something that costs almost as much as just buying 2 ships.

I am one of the TO's at our little store, we regularly get 12 people on tournament days (once a month). I usually split up everything so at least 1/2 the people get something from the kit, and the full kit is usually dispersed. I also don't take any TO stuff, I fight for it just like everyone else. I will echo that things are sometimes weird when the more competitive players end up being TO's, and that they are expected to step down to run small tournaments. I really enjoy playing! But someone has to take some responsibility to make sure tournaments happen. In our situation, there's another player that is TO#2, so ours works very well. But I will say anything over a $10 entry tournament and I'd step out of playing to run it like a premier event, X number of rounds and cut to top at the end.

I think expectations should be different based on the entry fee and prizes involved. The higher on those two items you go, the more I expect it to be run like a premier event.

Wow, a TO taking a by first round. Most of the Tournament Organizers I have run into, if there is an odd number, they don't play to make it even, or will play to make it even. Also, when the TO does play, he usually runs a fun list for him, not a competitive list. If for some reason the TO does well enough to make the cut, he usually passes that onto the next person.