Just noticed an awesome interaction between the Elrond hero and the new lore attachment The Long Defeat coming out in Battle of Carn Dum.

The wording on the second option of the long defeat is "heals up to 5 damage from among characters he controls". Each character healed by this effect even if only by a single point is boosted by Elrond's ability which is worded "After a character is healed by another card effect, heal 1 damage on it." You could potentially heal 10 damage total if you have 5 different characters with at least 2 damage on them. Even if this is only boosted by a point or two by Elrond you could still easily heal an entire players team of characters that are damaged with archery, direct damage etc with this card alone. You do obviously need to clear the quest it is attached to first.

Just a nice interaction that turns The Long Defeat into a much better card that can give you much more bang for your buck when choosing the heal option. An obvious interaction but one I thought I would point out for any that had not thought of it.

Elrond improves healing, what big news!

Jokes aside, Long Defeat is an excellent card by itself, and doesn't need any side boosting to be awesome and included, in my opinion. The situation you're describing, where Elrond would really make a difference, requires a very specific quest to be played with a lot of direct encounter damage (like Drudan Forest) to really shine, otherwise drawing 2 cards will always outweight it.

Yeah he improves healing but by spreading out that 5 points of healing among as many characters as possible he provides a bigger boost... that was the point. I even mentioned it was obvious in my post..

Didn't say it needs boosting to be awesome or included either, I think its a great card but just wanted to share my observation. Whats more I don't think that this would require a very specific quest as we now have quite a few quests that are archery heavy and quite a few quests especially newer ones in the current cycle that have plenty of other direct damage effects such as weather treachery cards or even the enemies themselves (coldfells giant for example). I don't think that Quests with lots or a decent amount of direct damage are really uncommon at all now....

Off the top of my head I can think of several quests this could be really powerful in other than just Druadan Forest:

Ruins of Belegost (Trap direct damage and loads of Dragon direct damage), Breaking of the Fellowship (lots of archery), Into Ithilien (plenty of archery) Battle of Carn Dum (treachery direct damage), Road to Isengard (Saruman direct damage and archery), Wastes of Eriador and The Weather Hills (weather treachery direct damage), Rhosgobel (festering wounds, unblockable enemies and undefended attacks if you don't have ranged characters), Helm's Deep (LOTS of archery) and honestly even some really early quests like Journey Down the Anduin that have various treacheries that deal 1 damage to every exhausted character or every character controlled by a player with threat of 35 or higher. Nightmare versions only increase the amount of archery in many cases as well...

Lastly, drawing two cards most definitely does not always outweigh the healing effect, not even just at 5 points of healing. I would far rather save several characters, potentially invaluable heroes, from death and heal a whole ton of damage that could possibly cost me the entire game than simply drawing a few cards... In fact I would only really do the draw effect if there is little to no damage on characters when long defeat triggers or if I have multiple wardens of healing in play that can heal the damage instead. Also there are far more cards that are better for card draw but as far as healing goes this is quite powerful (5 points and from any amount of characters, heroes or allies).

I think you are vastly underestimating and undervaluing healing in general to be honest. Yes card draw is powerful but a whole 5 points of healing across all your characters is pretty **** handy and with Elrond out up to 10 healing is just bonkers and could easily save you from a loss on various occasions against more direct damage or combat heavy quests.

Elrond improves healing, what big news!

Jokes aside, Long Defeat is an excellent card by itself, and doesn't need any side boosting to be awesome and included, in my opinion. The situation you're describing, where Elrond would really make a difference, requires a very specific quest to be played with a lot of direct encounter damage (like Drudan Forest) to really shine, otherwise drawing 2 cards will always outweight it.

What an utter nonsense.

I would say the healing option is by far more desirable, especially as a Lore card. Of course Lore is good with both healing and card draw but 1 resource for 2 cards is nothing great within the sphere, quite inferior to other cards, whilst 1 resource for 5 damage on different characters is superb, unique.

And indeed Elrond turns this into a magic situation.

The best about the card itself is that each player can choose a different option.

1 cost 8 cards is superb, even in Lore. 1 cost 20 damage (40 with Elrond ) healing is awesome too. This card is just great because of its versatility.

Both effects can also easily be achieved via different cards, like Campfire Tales. Two copies is also 8 cards. The healing is even in sphere, with Waters of Nimrodel. Which could potentially heal more then 40 damage.

What an utter nonsense.

I would say the healing option is by far more desirable, especially as a Lore card. Of course Lore is good with both healing and card draw but 1 resource for 2 cards is nothing great within the sphere, quite inferior to other cards, whilst 1 resource for 5 damage on different characters is superb, unique.

And indeed Elrond turns this into a magic situation.

The best about the card itself is that each player can choose a different option.

Nope.

To heal something, you need to have damaged characters. To take advantage of Elronds boost, you need to have that damage spread across as many characters as possible + they all must have at least 2 damage on them for Elrond's boost to be effective. Un a perfect universe, that will require you to have 5 characters with 2+ damage on them. And to top it off, it happens not by the flick of your finger, but by the act of clearing the quest stage it is attached to. What are the odds of that happening?

Cards, on the other hand, are unconditional, and are total and unquestionable benefit, unless you're battling men of Dunland that is. And in a multiplayer, not all players are going to be running any Lore-related stuff, which skyrockets the viability of the draw option.

TL/DR: The only utter nonense here, kind sir, is your post.

Let's quit calling each other's posts utter nonsense. It's far to strong a term to be used on someone's opinion about a card effect.

There are times when both effects will be useful. I agree there are a few quests where bringing Elrond+Long Defeat would be a great idea. At the same time, I think the card draw is there so that it's always useful to everyone, regardless of the board state, and personally I see myself choosing it an overwhelming percentage of the time, even with 5 damage on my characters. I like my cards.

Erebor Hammersmith makes the card a bit more interesting, too. Now its fairly re-playable on side-quests. Or main quests.

You are right, Seastan. It just rubs me the wrong seeing someone always trying to scorn whenever possible.

I see you like card draw, Seastan, but surely you would choose other options if you just wanted to do that. I don't think there actually are many worse choices as far the the pure drawing goes. Or to be more fair, there just are better ones.

As I said above, I really like the card. And the draw option is certainly nice, but the healing option is what makes the card powerful. To say the former always outweighs the latter is just ridiculous. And the combo with Elrond is indeed great. I'm not here so often but I hadn't seen it mentioned before. Next to Warden of Healing, this is the best healing combo with Elrond, for sure.

As for using the healing effect, of course Ents come to mind -- and it does't matter what quest it be. But what harder quest doesn't try to keep your characters red, really?

I wish the smear-campaign would stop. It's the internet. Some people speak a different language and are used to talk with another tone.

Nothing wrong with the devil's advocate if you ask me.

As a wise person named Ghandi once said: "It is only irritating as long as you let it irritate you.'

This guy. Really enjoys demonizing me.

Leaving the name-calling aside, I would like to add that I think it is much more common in recent quests for the direct damage to be such that you choose which characters it targets. I'm thinking specifically of cards like Biting Wind and Ice Storm . This, combined with Ent player cards like Treebeard and Derndingle Warrior , now afford players much more control of which of their allies are damaged. Biting Wind is a part of the Foul Weather encounter set, which is included in several quests in the current cycle, so this is not just a one-off trend. Given this shift in the metagame, a card like The Long Defeat is much more likely to work to greater effect in combination with Elrond. In any case, I don't play hero Elrond much these days, but I will be including The Long Defeat in multiple decks because I value versatility in my deck designs. Personally, I see it as allowing me to include less healing-only effects in my deck, so that card draw effect for me is only a fall-back in case I draw it and there isn't enough damage on my characters to warrant the healing effect. Others will no doubt use it differently, but that's the nice thing about versatility, it works for players with a variety of styles.

I wish the smear-campaign would stop. It's the internet. Some people speak a different language and are used to talk with another tone.

Nothing wrong with the devil's advocate if you ask me.

As a wise person named Ghandi once said: "It is only irritating as long as you let it irritate you.'

Of course. But same is true for responses as well.

This guy. Really enjoys demonizing me.

Ok, I give you one more. It is because of people like you, in my opinion, the boards are so depleted. And perhaps because of people like me, too. This used to be a cheerful place once. I try not to heed the trolling but sometimes I do, mostly not even noticing it was you. But worry not, I really won't do it again. Trying to be fair, there is insightful input as well, I just dislike the style in general. And I know for a fact I am not the only one, but again, it is everybody's business what one gets bothered by, and LotR LCG seems like a silly example, given the state of the world. Anyway, I feel silly enough, I won't bother (be bothered) any more.

Leaving the name-calling aside, I would like to add that I think it is much more common in recent quests for the direct damage to be such that you choose which characters it targets. I'm thinking specifically of cards like Biting Wind and Ice Storm . This, combined with Ent player cards like Treebeard and Derndingle Warrior , now afford players much more control of which of their allies are damaged. Biting Wind is a part of the Foul Weather encounter set, which is included in several quests in the current cycle, so this is not just a one-off trend. Given this shift in the metagame, a card like The Long Defeat is much more likely to work to greater effect in combination with Elrond. In any case, I don't play hero Elrond much these days, but I will be including The Long Defeat in multiple decks because I value versatility in my deck designs. Personally, I see it as allowing me to include less healing-only effects in my deck, so that card draw effect for me is only a fall-back in case I draw it and there isn't enough damage on my characters to warrant the healing effect. Others will no doubt use it differently, but that's the nice thing about versatility, it works for players with a variety of styles.

Indeed, characters being damaged by quests is something much more common these days. At the time of the core set, I hardly ever bothered with healing (I never really got into the Gloin decks). It was not until Rhosgobel. And then again for quite some time. But the archery mechanic changed it. And it hasn't really gone back, quite the opposite, I feel.

Ok, I give you one more. It is because of people like you, in my opinion, the boards are so depleted. And perhaps because of people like me, too. This used to be a cheerful place once. I try not to heed the trolling but sometimes I do, mostly not even noticing it was you. But worry not, I really won't do it again. Trying to be fair, there is insightful input as well, I just dislike the style in general. And I know for a fact I am not the only one, but again, it is everybody's business what one gets bothered by, and LotR LCG seems like a silly example, given the state of the world. Anyway, I feel silly enough, I won't bother (be bothered) any more.

The worst part about it is that you sincerely believe that I'm trolling.

This guy. Really enjoys demonizing me.

Ok, I give you one more. It is because of people like you, in my opinion, the boards are so depleted. And perhaps because of people like me, too. This used to be a cheerful place once. I try not to heed the trolling but sometimes I do, mostly not even noticing it was you. But worry not, I really won't do it again. Trying to be fair, there is insightful input as well, I just dislike the style in general. And I know for a fact I am not the only one, but again, it is everybody's business what one gets bothered by, and LotR LCG seems like a silly example, given the state of the world. Anyway, I feel silly enough, I won't bother (be bothered) any more.

Don't feel silly.

Myneighbourtro.... sorry I mean JohnConstantine has a very abrasive and blunt way of posting on the forums that I am not a fan of either. He is not a troll just very blunt and rude in the way that he speaks to others sometimes. In this thread for example even though I specifically outlined that what I was posting was an obvious interaction he still felt the need to poke fun at/make a joke about my post "elrond improves healing, what news!".

He then goes on to more or less tear down everything I had to say by stating that the card is worth including without the boost I outlined which I agree with and has nothing to do with my post whatsoever almost implying I was stating it is not worth while using without the boost from Elrond. He then states that you would need a very specific situation for this to be beneficial which almost everyone has disagreed with based on how the game has gone over the last few cycles and how predominant direct damage effects and archery now are. Finally he states that the card draw ability is always better unless you are in a situation where many characters are damaged and Elrond is able to provide multiple additional points of healing. This is simply a ridiculous statement, even just at 5 healing power it will on occasion be a far better choice than the cards. I'm sure the card draw will win out more times overall but to say that it is hands down better regardless of the amount of damage you have on your characters or what situation you are in is just ridiculous and silly. Both effects can be fantastic based on your situation and although card draw is universal and always nice, healing can be just as or more beneficial in certain situations especially if you have any heroes that are only a hit point or two away from death.

This is a community, and all of us should behave in a sensible manner towards each other. Not just a few of us. All.

If you have something constructive to say about a previous post then say it. If not, please leave it be. Refrain from posting if it would only serve the purpose to be ironic or condescending.

Otherwise this place will eventually end up empty, and that would be really sad as I (and I'm sure all of you) really enjoy reading about and discussing this game.

It's funny how ya'll berating me for not agreeing with you, but you have no problem with not agreeing with me, even using terms like "ridiculous" and "silly" in the process. Double standards much, eh?

I never said that card draw will outweigh heal while you have a lot of different thoroughly damaged characters, what I said is that card draw is going to be used far more frequently than heal because most of the time there is going to be not much to heal, and in multiplayer, card draw effects for non-drawing spheres is at the weight of gold, while healing is easily achievable and less conditional than The Long Defeat provides, and that's why while having an Elrond around when someone triggers healing from The Long Defeat is nice... it's not that much of a combo you're trying to pass it as.

Long story short, I'll repeat myself once again, but now in more detail:

To be effective on this one, you need to have characters with more than 1 damage on them. Maximum bonus Elrond can provide via this effect is +5 healing (+1 on each character), and to make the most of it, you'll need 5 different characters to have 2+ damage on them (and still be alive, which for most allies is unrealistic, and the usual max hero counter is 3), and all that should be happening exactly during the moment you explore dat quest with the Long Defeat attached. And this is why I call this "combo" very situational, unlike it's +2 cards counterpart.

The way I see it, multiplayer as always as I rarely play solo, is you slap this card on a quest card, and when it is explored you see what you need most. Versatility is powerful.

The way I see it, multiplayer as always as I rarely play solo, is you slap this card on a quest card, and when it is explored you see what you need most. Versatility is powerful.

That's was one of my points. You can't plan it as carefully as any other heal.

I think PsychoRocka is right that this could be pretty cool. The wording works, you could put The Long Defeat on a side quest with relatively few quest points like Scout Ahead, Gather Information, or Double Back, and leave it there. When your characters need healing, you go to the side quest and heal a lot, and get a nice other benefit too.

John Constantine has a point too though. It's difficult to make optimal use of this card. It's not too hard to trigger the Long Defeat if you use it on sidequests, but it's still harder than triggering just about any other healing effect. Most allies have 2 hp or less so it can be hard to use Elrond's healing boost to help them, making The Long Defeat for allies with lots of HP and heros primarily.

That being said, you don't have to always maximize the potential of the Long Defeat just to make the combo worth it. A few points extra healing with Elrond is nice. Basically any quest with Archery or direct damage you can make good use of this card, which is a lot of them, as well as just about all of the harder quests. In this case, you can probably use Elrond's boost at least 3 times per player, one for each of your heros. And then you maybe heal up an ally or two. Is it the maximum efficiency? Maybe not. But you're probably still healing up around 8-9 damage per player instead of just 5. That's still quite a significant increase.

If you're including Elrond anyway, it's certainly a card to think about. There aren't many cards in the game that can potentially produce such a dramatic swing for so little cost. The Long Defeat is very cheap and you might be able to use Elrond and TLD for very cost-efficient healing, perhaps even your only healing in the deck. It's quite possible it could be enough. Further, you could build your deck to optimize this card. Lots of Ents, Elrond, the Long Defeat, seems like a solid idea. Treebeard would be a nice hero choice. Maybe Erestor for the third? The Long Defeat is good with Erestor because with him, cheaper is better.

Couldn't put it better myself awp832 and you raised a few things I didn't even talk about such as sidequests which it works gangbusters with (in my decks I run x1 gather information in each and one deck has 1x Send for Aid and the other has 1x Double Back). Also Ents do work fantastically with it as you pointed out with their high hitpoints and stats (they make good defenders, good damage sponges and have abilities based on how much damage they have on them etc).

Played the Long Defeat several times today at our Fellowship Event with four players, including an Elrond deck in my group (not my deck). Our group was in pretty good shape health-wise, so we mostly took the card draw effect. We usually triggered it by clearing out player side quests and the combo of four players drawing eight cards plus each person gaining an ally or tutoring up a card (i.e. SfA or GI) seemed very strong. The healing option was used by some of us and was certainly appreciated as an additional option. Seems like a solid card to me, though definitely has more value in 3-4 player games IMO.

On the issue of side quests. I play in a monthly LOTR group and we typically have 3-4 people play each session. Our past couple of sessions have often seen the staging area littered with side quests. I saw more of this at our Fellowship Event today. Not only are they simply good on their own, having several different side quests grants 3-4 person groups a lot of flexibility for addressing their board state. Threat getting a little too high? Let's do Double Back this turn. Looking to power through the end of a quest or need help in the combat phase? Let's go with Send for Aid. Need to get some combos set up? It's Gather Information time. Now it's even more fun throwing The Long Defeat in with all this. Add in Ranger Provisions, Ancient Mathom and Elf Stone for even more side quest completion goodness.