Saw his round five game 274 to 11. Tabled the VSD and a glad. Was very impressed with the list.

Did anyone know what he faced in round 1 to 3?

Also was funny folks where calling for him to take adv gun and said sensor sweep wtf.

lol Advanced Gunnery would have been a bad thing as first player.

Intel Sweep made life easier.

I agree Advanced Gunnery would be bad, but Intel Sweep isn't necessarily a picnic against three glads. To score the objective, you need three of the five objective tokens (meaning you have to end your movement within claiming distance of it and survive to activate again). End with the wrong objective token (i.e., near the middle of the board, within striking distance of Demolisher and/or a few camping glads, etc.), and the objective ship will pop, no matter how speedy it is.

The objective/obstacle placement, plus the deployment advantages that were exploited in that final, were phenomenal for the rebel player. Sweeping across the middle and then away from the enemy fleet made the CR-90's day incredibly low-stress, and that opening asteroid bump on the Vic certainly seemed to make life easier for the A's (not to say that they wouldn't have brought the Vic down eventually anyway, but every little bit helps).

The reason why we're rallying about this is the core argument of the GenConSpecial, which is "Squadrons don't matter, you just have to kill the Ships to win." - and this was showing that Squadrons can indeed stop you from doing that.

Well, the actual argument is true. Squadrons DON'T matter, and you DO have to kill the ships to win.

I'm really pleased that a squadron list won this one, but lets not get carried away. The game before this against another all ship list was VERY close, and all ship lists were at least half of the top 4. And the Imperial player in the final effectively lost in deployment.

To me this suggests excellent balance, and not that squadron heavy is in any way superior. And thats exactly as it should be, leaving room for everyones preferred play style.

In fact....the winning list at Worlds (or a variant of) placed 2nd at gencon, and the winning Gencon list placed 2nd here. Thats pretty **** balanced.

I mostly agree, I think, in the sense that there's room in this game for lots of different builds. We categorize them in different ways (squadron heavy, squadron light, all ship, ship spam), but the fact of the matter is that squadron-heavy builds vary (Just using the "rhymer ball" as an example, it could mean Rhymer + bombers, Rhymer + Bombers/TAs, Rhymer + 3-4 black die + TIEs, Rhymer + 10 TIE fighters; it may or may not include Corruptor, Chirpy, expanded hangers), and the same is true in regards to all other builds. At 300 points especially, "squadron-heavy" builds usually involved only two ships out of necessity (low point limit + cost of carriers + cost of "carrier upgrades"), unless you dropped into the 4-5 squadron range (at which point it was questionable whether the list was still "squadron heavy"). The incredible thing for me was seeing a true "squadron heavy" list (88/300 points, eight squadrons) with two AFIIs and a third ship for activation/deployment control. They were incredibly stripped down, but as it turns out, you can beat a black-spewing glad list without gunnery teams and advanced projectors on your AFIIs. Who knew?

I agree deployment was a major factor in this game (as was choice of objective, as was objective/obstacle placement, as was the winner's strategy for objectives), but it's hard to see how the Imperial's list has a clear path to victory if this type of squadron-heavy list if executed in a fairly-competent matter. The A's were clearly at their best when there was a squadron command (and with Garm, that first attack activation, right from the get-go, was incredible to watch), but had sufficient speed to position themselves for an attack/get back into activation range, which allowed the AFIIs to move where they wanted to be, instead of where they "needed" to be. I agreed with the glads taking anti-squadron shots at the A's as the only viable counter strategy... but one popped A to show for it isn't a fabulous return. Deploying in the corner definitely didn't help the imperial, and maybe putting the Vic in the middle of the glad pack (with lots of cross-fire flac shots) would have kept it alive longer, but once any ship becomes the focused target of eight black dice, it's only a matter of time, regardless of how you deploy, especially if your speed is poor.

A-Wings are the most efficient squadrons in the game.

They attack ships almost as good as bombers and wreck havoc on fighters and bombers with counter 2 and 4 hull. AND they are speed 5.

For 11 points thats a bargain.

Just because A wings worked good in worlds this time does not mean they will be as great once wave 2 comes out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying A wings will be bad, but you will have to consider how the new scums and villains will be in comparison to them. And really, any uncontested squadron mass will greatly affect the outcome of a battle.

The reason why we're rallying about this is the core argument of the GenConSpecial, which is "Squadrons don't matter, you just have to kill the Ships to win." - and this was showing that Squadrons can indeed stop you from doing that.

This is actually not what Gencon special is about:

The player said himself, he took it to simplify the game after a long tournament, and he wasn't well versed in squadrons.

TRying to go for the carriers is the only game plan it HAS against a mass carrier list. And having a Cr90 that can run like that. WOW! What great planning!

I agree with Starkiller, in that I'm also not particularly worried about A's. They don't have Rogue (and really, they'd be broken if they did--there's a reason why the only five-speed Rogue unit with counter 2**--IG-2000--is a unique ace), but they have speed 5, that black anti-ship dice, and aren't heavy. In other words, the definition of multi-purpose (just missing Bomber, really), and they're cheap enough that if you wanted to spam them in Wave II, you can field 12 of them within the squadron point limit (132/134). Ships with Rogue will have the advantage (at least early game) that they can avoid A's with proper planning. But once engaged with them (barring Intel or Grit or other such special abilities), even 7-hull Bossk is going to have a tough time with an A-wing swarm (3 blues + counter 2 + 4 hull + 5 speed (x) [up to 12]).

That said, the creator of the GenCon special has always been honest about his rationale for building the list--maximizing black dice and simplifying orders in order to table the opponent quickly. He's also been candid about the limits of the list, as recently as his predictions about worlds. The problem with a three-ship carrier build, excellently deployed and strategically prepared, is that catching three ships is an incredibly difficult task while you're being peppered with lots of black dice. The fact that the GenCon Special made it to the top table (and was the high player going into the last round) speaks to the efficiency and power of the list (and the skill of the player, let's not forget that, too), but the final shows what many of us (including the list's creator) have suspected: that even a highly successful list can't account for every possible opponent (at least not at 300 points).

** This makes 7 Aggressors + Dengar (132 points) a fascinating (albeit expensive) proposition...

There is a problem? I don't think so.

Its probably fitting that we have now seen the "popular" meta go full circle.

I see it as a great demonstration of the depth of the game, even at wave 1.

Assault frigate range and mobility can trump straight firepower .

Agreed. All of the different build types that have sprung up so far are getting something. Squadron-heavy builds are getting boosted comms (both), bigger carriers (both), cheaper filler ships to get above 2 activations (Imps), and will be able to field a mix of independent and command-dependent squadrons. Squadron-light builds are getting more formidable predators that aren't reliant on squadron commands, and ship-heavy builds are getting some upgrades (Rebs) or ships (Raiders) to counter squadrons once token fighter screens give way. And the empire has a brand new ship to spam (Raider), while Rebels have some intriguing new commanders (Ackbar, Rieekan) to run with their spams. All told, I'm extremely excited to see where things go from here (well, once that boat arrives...)

Then why A it's the most played fighter?. It's imbalanced becouse it works as a screen fighter better than the x and has good bomber capabilities as the black dice don't care about crits and accuracy.

This is the just the typical knee jerk reaction to someone winning a big event. Everyone was saying the same thing about Gladiator's after Gencon and complaining that squadrons were useless so this just vindicates me in my mind. I have said it along that a good player can make anything work in this game squadrons take finesse and experience and as someone else stated it just shows how well balanced things are now. With Wave 2 the balance of individual ships and squadrons will change and I am good with that I just hope certain cards dont tip the balance too much.

Wait... A_Wings are broken now? That appears to be ther overriding theme... Well of course a squadron heavy list win, the A-Wing is broken!

Wait...when did any fighter become "broken"? Wtf....I love the forums

Well, to be fair, any squadron will become broken if you shoot it enough...

I watched all of the matches....the last was lost in the fleet deployment stage....Johnathan set up perfectly, his A's swarmed the Vic,and his AF's were in good position....after the Vic went down, he already had 2 of the three tokens(obj), thanks to Garms ship way over on the left of the field,...it was over after the Glad bit the dust...thanks to the A's......broken?...I don't think so.

Awing...MVP indeed!! Well done Johnathan and beautifully played!!!

I watched all of the matches....the last was lost in the fleet deployment stage....Johnathan set up perfectly, his A's swarmed the Vic,and his AF's were in good position....after the Vic went down, he already had 2 of the three tokens(obj), thanks to Garms ship way over on the left of the field,...it was over after the Glad bit the dust...thanks to the A's......broken?...I don't think so.

Awing...MVP indeed!! Well done Johnathan and beautifully played!!!

I agree...once I saw that deployment I knew it was all over unless Jonathan had really bad dice rolls. I could see exactly what Jonathan was going to do as I have played a very similar fleet to that many times I know its strengths.

Really it just shows how wave 1 skewed the inter faction balance. Personally the raider should've been a wave 1 ship, which would've brought alot of parity in list options. Just about everyone I knew was calling a guppy list to win it, just because it gave you the largest spread of winnable matches. Luck and skill goes into it of course, but the reason no imperial really strayed from the gencon special is there's just not a better list for handling a 5 round events matchups.

Having parity in ship selection would've made this wave alot more interesting and diverse. Also I'd agree the a wing is a solid point undercosted for what it can do. I would've preferred a red antiship die instead of black, better than blue, but not better than x wings at the job

Really it just shows how wave 1 skewed the inter faction balance. Personally the raider should've been a wave 1 ship, which would've brought alot of parity in list options. Just about everyone I knew was calling a guppy list to win it, just because it gave you the largest spread of winnable matches. Luck and skill goes into it of course, but the reason no imperial really strayed from the gencon special is there's just not a better list for handling a 5 round events matchups.

Having parity in ship selection would've made this wave alot more interesting and diverse. Also I'd agree the a wing is a solid point undercosted for what it can do. I would've preferred a red antiship die instead of black, better than blue, but not better than x wings at the job

I mean, ok, but doesn't the fact that it was a rebel/imperial matchup in the finals show that the factions are relatively well balanced? I mean, for most of this wave the Imperials have been dominant.

I watched all of the matches....the last was lost in the fleet deployment stage....Johnathan set up perfectly, his A's swarmed the Vic,and his AF's were in good position....after the Vic went down, he already had 2 of the three tokens(obj), thanks to Garms ship way over on the left of the field,...it was over after the Glad bit the dust...thanks to the A's......broken?...I don't think so.

Awing...MVP indeed!! Well done Johnathan and beautifully played!!!

I agree if the imp player had depolyed more spread out. Or one glad to the other side to meet the vette head on. It might of been different

Really it just shows how wave 1 skewed the inter faction balance. Personally the raider should've been a wave 1 ship, which would've brought alot of parity in list options. Just about everyone I knew was calling a guppy list to win it, just because it gave you the largest spread of winnable matches. Luck and skill goes into it of course, but the reason no imperial really strayed from the gencon special is there's just not a better list for handling a 5 round events matchups.

Having parity in ship selection would've made this wave alot more interesting and diverse. Also I'd agree the a wing is a solid point undercosted for what it can do. I would've preferred a red antiship die instead of black, better than blue, but not better than x wings at the job

I mean, ok, but doesn't the fact that it was a rebel/imperial matchup in the finals show that the factions are relatively well balanced? I mean, for most of this wave the Imperials have been dominant.

Not exactly, what were the other list totals brought? Not to mention personal taste and skill being a factor, holding that equal I think everyone would've picked a three ship rebel assault frigate to hold up the best over a 5 game event. And outside of gencon rebels have won just about everything that I've seen in my play area. There's only been two major tournaments though, and not alot of data threads for sullust that I've seen.

Plus I was more remarking on diversity than balance, a few things are a point or two off imo, but the games balanced. I'd just rather have seen wave 1 start with parity than have wave 2 get it

bringing more fighters/bombers would have provided a lot more deployment parity

Really it just shows how wave 1 skewed the inter faction balance. Personally the raider should've been a wave 1 ship, which would've brought alot of parity in list options. Just about everyone I knew was calling a guppy list to win it, just because it gave you the largest spread of winnable matches. Luck and skill goes into it of course, but the reason no imperial really strayed from the gencon special is there's just not a better list for handling a 5 round events matchups.

Having parity in ship selection would've made this wave alot more interesting and diverse. Also I'd agree the a wing is a solid point undercosted for what it can do. I would've preferred a red antiship die instead of black, better than blue, but not better than x wings at the job

I mean, ok, but doesn't the fact that it was a rebel/imperial matchup in the finals show that the factions are relatively well balanced? I mean, for most of this wave the Imperials have been dominant.

I would not agree with this at all. In my at least area Rebels have dominated the scene from day one.

Really it just shows how wave 1 skewed the inter faction balance. Personally the raider should've been a wave 1 ship, which would've brought alot of parity in list options. Just about everyone I knew was calling a guppy list to win it, just because it gave you the largest spread of winnable matches. Luck and skill goes into it of course, but the reason no imperial really strayed from the gencon special is there's just not a better list for handling a 5 round events matchups.

Having parity in ship selection would've made this wave alot more interesting and diverse. Also I'd agree the a wing is a solid point undercosted for what it can do. I would've preferred a red antiship die instead of black, better than blue, but not better than x wings at the job

I mean, ok, but doesn't the fact that it was a rebel/imperial matchup in the finals show that the factions are relatively well balanced? I mean, for most of this wave the Imperials have been dominant.

I would not agree with this at all. In my at least area Rebels have dominated the scene from day one.

Imperials have won 90% of the tournaments in our area but that is because Mikael is a medal hog ^_~

Wait... A_Wings are broken now? That appears to be ther overriding theme... Well of course a squadron heavy list win, the A-Wing is broken!

In the last match was not important but have A-wing almost do the same damage as Ys vs ships and much better vs fighters. That's why it's broken. In my rebel fleet take A over any other fighter except aces it's a no brainer in an all comers list.

Similar price Y or X. Equal doghfigter as X if you take into account counter 2 or better.

Much better speed with a little loss in durability but enought be rock solid to survive one round of damage not like ties or interceptors.

Almost equal bombing capabilities as Y. Losing only the crit damage 2/8 of the time but with all the benefits listed above.

For my as a rebel it give all the advantages with almost no drawback.

Fighters have pros and cons my broken statment was about the fighters compared to other fighters and why As are too good vs other possible choices not about carrier fleets vs all ship fleets.

Wait... A_Wings are broken now? That appears to be ther overriding theme... Well of course a squadron heavy list win, the A-Wing is broken!

In the last match was not important but have A-wing almost do the same damage as Ys vs ships and much better vs fighters. That's why it's broken. In my rebel fleet take A over any other fighter except aces it's a no brainer in an all comers list.

Similar price Y or X. Equal doghfigter as X if you take into account counter 2 or better.

Much better speed with a little loss in durability but enought be rock solid to survive one round of damage not like ties or interceptors.

Almost equal bombing capabilities as Y. Losing only the crit damage 2/8 of the time but with all the benefits listed above.

For my as a rebel it give all the advantages with almost no drawback.

Fighters have pros and cons my broken statment was about the fighters compared to other fighters and why As are too good vs other possible choices not about carrier fleets vs all ship fleets.

So what about TIE Advanced then? They roll black dice and cost a single point more. Are they broken?

Not having bomber lowers the average damage of a squadron from 1 to .75

In the six massing at sullust games I went to in Denmark, in four games I faced of against 2x AF2, 4x A-wings and 3 Y-wings + various upgrades and it was against four different people.

So talk about Meta.

And if those four people had deeper pockets, I would proberly been fighting against even more A-wings.

I'm by the way on my third box of Rebel fighters, I got bored and wanted to paint more Rebel fighters in various colors schemes.

Would it be bad form to use X-wings as A-wing proxies?

I mean if all the starfighters that you deploy is "A-wings" and use only the A-wing stats, and start out with 4x hull points, does it really matter what model is on top of the peg?

Would it be bad form to use X-wings as A-wing proxies?

I mean if all the starfighters that you deploy is "A-wings" and use only the A-wing stats, and start out with 4x hull points, does it really matter what model is on top of the peg?

For tournaments, yes. Casual, No.

Do you need 8 A-Wings to win? No. 6 can do as well. Just gain experience with your list and play against all kinds of lists.

Wait... A_Wings are broken now? That appears to be ther overriding theme... Well of course a squadron heavy list win, the A-Wing is broken!

In the last match was not important but have A-wing almost do the same damage as Ys vs ships and much better vs fighters. That's why it's broken. In my rebel fleet take A over any other fighter except aces it's a no brainer in an all comers list.

Similar price Y or X. Equal doghfigter as X if you take into account counter 2 or better.

Much better speed with a little loss in durability but enought be rock solid to survive one round of damage not like ties or interceptors.

Almost equal bombing capabilities as Y. Losing only the crit damage 2/8 of the time but with all the benefits listed above.

For my as a rebel it give all the advantages with almost no drawback.

Fighters have pros and cons my broken statment was about the fighters compared to other fighters and why As are too good vs other possible choices not about carrier fleets vs all ship fleets.

I have to disagree. Perhaps in comparison to Xs and Ys, you have a case. The Y I have never had much affinity for. Heavy is a huge problem for me. The X is lacking because of the red bomber die being so spastic.

However, Bs are in a whole different category. Their anti-squadron is the same, they have more hull points, and in place of counter they have over double the damage against ships plus the ability to critical. They are obviously limited by speed, but Independence is going to be their best friend. I've been contemplating going 7 Bs plus Jan with a double MC80 Ackbar build. It would force most builds to come at me and have a very nasty fighter screen. Against a squadron heavy opponent, the Bs can still hold their own for a very long time, even slipping out to attack ships should someone be foolish enough to leave Jan alone.

My Dodonna build, however, mixes the best of both worlds. It's an AFIIB, Independence, and Salvation plus Tycho, 2x As and 4x Bs. The thing I like about the As is the ability to more or less ignore the need for an Intel ship. It's great to have, but is also kind of dead weight. It's there to keep the bombers moving. If you can do that by keeping the enemy fighter screen off the bombers in the first place, then you can use those points somewhere else.

Wait... A_Wings are broken now? That appears to be ther overriding theme... Well of course a squadron heavy list win, the A-Wing is broken!

In the last match was not important but have A-wing almost do the same damage as Ys vs ships and much better vs fighters. That's why it's broken. In my rebel fleet take A over any other fighter except aces it's a no brainer in an all comers list.

Similar price Y or X. Equal doghfigter as X if you take into account counter 2 or better.

Much better speed with a little loss in durability but enought be rock solid to survive one round of damage not like ties or interceptors.

Almost equal bombing capabilities as Y. Losing only the crit damage 2/8 of the time but with all the benefits listed above.

For my as a rebel it give all the advantages with almost no drawback.

Fighters have pros and cons my broken statment was about the fighters compared to other fighters and why As are too good vs other possible choices not about carrier fleets vs all ship fleets.

I wouldn't call it "broken". If the A wings had blue dice in this battle I think the result would have been pretty much the same. You are only talking about 0.25 damage per shot difference. I definitely agree with you that the stats don't seem exactly right. A wing should have a blue dice antiship. But it really doesn't matter compared to the speed issue.

The thing that makes the A wing good in this sort of battle is the speed 5, because it lets them keep re-engaging speed 3 gladiators. The geometry of the engagement is that the gladiators were at high speed, chasing the assault frigates that were retreating at speed 3. So speed 5 allows the A wings to attack, then fall back into range to either be commanded or to act as minefields for where the Glads are now going to be next turn. So the attack zone for the fighters is continually moving at high speed.

In this case, xwings/ywings/bwings would have got one engagement, but then would have struggled to get back into the fight for the rest of the game.

So that's whats problematic I think. Speed 5 is so much more useful in this sort of battle. Speed 2 or 3 fighters can't do the same things.

In case you position them wrongly, the speed 5 makes the A-wing a much more forgiving fighter to use. One mistake with the other three slow rebs, and they are left behind struggling to catch up.

Having counter compensates some, for not being able to shoot at the end of a move in the squadron fase.

And the nifty black dice for attacking ships, gives a 75% chance for a hit.

And not to copy paste others; it has 4 hull.

And paying 11pts for getting the most versatile fighter in the game, makes it a no brainer, when you have to decide which fighter to bring along in +2 numbers.

The recorded final match for anyone that didn't get to see it live. http://www.twitch.tv/ffglive/v/24306606

Thank you, but that link does about as much good as the one from FFG's web site.

I get a black rectangle with a list of games (and pictures) below. Clicking on any of of them takes me back to FFG's web site, which sends me back to the twitch page. It's circular with no videos.

EDIT:

I figured it out! I was using FireFox. I opened the link with IE, and everything works fine - the black rectangle actually shows a video! (like I though it should have)

Actually it's a nonsense becouse ff I think have never changed a points cost or modified a ship except with newer cards (tie adv).

I don't find the advanced to be has good. 1 hull point for 1 speed, no counter but scort. It works well but the A it's better as it can work independently ans the adv only uses it's scort near other fighters and with high movement can be easily bypassed with accurate (but out of the spiritof the game) movement.

Engage the fighter you want but stay 1 mm from range 1 from the others.

Not as easily done but exploitable.

I don't think A-wings are overpowered, but they do outshine X-wings which is a shame imho, as I love X-wings. Would be nice if X-wings got a slight boost in the future...1 extra speed or perhaps counter 1?

I don't think A-wings are overpowered, but they do outshine X-wings which is a shame imho, as I love X-wings. Would be nice if X-wings got a slight boost in the future...1 extra speed or perhaps counter 1?

Superior except the lack of Escort... and Bomber... and extra Hull and AS dice

On a more serious note: in some builds, those featuring Bs and Ys, the X can really come into its own. But if you're only flying one kind of fighter, it's the A. Pretty sure this is all intentional game design.