My only concern is that I still do not feel like Thalin/Warden of Arnor can affect cards that are Immune to Player Card Effects. If we "consider them to be in play" then we should also consider the "Immune to Player Card Effects" to be active and thus immune to Thalin/Warden of Arnor.

It's slightly different than Fortune or Fating Beorn.

Trying to decide where to put "Immune to Player card effects".

Should The Door is Closed be able to cancel Secluded Glade ?

Should Quick Ears be able to cancel Morgul Wraith ?

Immume to player cards only kicks in when a card is placed in the staging area and is thus 'active'.

I would say that there thus is an option to cancel them, same for the One Ring. The text isn't active yet, because first you check etc.

That is for The Door is Closed.

Quick Ears, well I don't dare say anything about that.

Ah what the hell, won't they just die already..

I would feel like I was cheating if I damaged an immune-to-player-cards card with Thalin. I have no strong opinion about Frodo Baggins [TBR], The Door Is Closed, or Quick Ears.

Edit: I feel like I would be sad if Minas Tirith Lampwright's effect wouldn't cancel an Immune to player cards card. I don't really have any good reason for this, but it would make me sad.

Immume to player cards only kicks in when a card is placed in the staging area and is thus 'active'.

I would say that there thus is an option to cancel them, same for the One Ring. The text isn't active yet, because first you check etc.

That is for The Door is Closed.

Quick Ears, well I don't dare say anything about that.

Ah what the hell, won't they just die already..

Is this the consensus? Some people seem to believe that "Immune to player card effects" protects cards from Thalin, Warden of Arnor, etc.

Immume to player cards only kicks in when a card is placed in the staging area and is thus 'active'.

Unfortunately, we don't have an answer here. I think both interpretations are valid. For reference the quote from the Land of Shadow rule insert about Immune to Player Card Effects says this:

Here is what I found on Eastern Crows + Thalin:

booored maybe you are remembering that "discarded" and "defeated" are different (i.e., you can't trigger Landroval if Borormir uses his self-discarding action because he wasn't "defeated")

But official replies from Nate, along with the game manual, that "defeated" means a character leaving play as a result of damage tokens being placed on it.

" Defeated and destroyed both refer to a character or enemy receiving damage that reduces its hit points to zero, and then being placed in the appropriate discard pile."

origin thread is here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7608788#7608788

edit: if "defeated" referred only to damage from combat, Landroval couldn't save heroes who die from Treachery card effects either.

1. Thalin damages an enemy and that damage is enough to place it in the discard pile

2. The Eastern Crows is defeated and placed in the appropriate discard pile

3. The Eastern Crows triggers its effect (or it does not if we argue that its game text is blank).

Ignore what I had posted here....lol

Check out this thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/138736-thalin-forcedskeywords/

Yup, I was just reading that...Apparently Thalin and when exactly various effects trigger has already been discussed. No official ruling.

However, I might add we overlooked Toughness as a keyword. It seems Dont Be Hasty should be able to trigger before Toughness applies, but I also feel like Thalin should not be able to damage it before Toughness applies????

Hello,

I'm a bit intimidated about posting my ruling idea as the first post ever in this forum, but here we go:

What about giving emphasis to the word " just revealed" in Quick Ears? I know that probably the phrasing was only to clarify that you cannot cancel an enemy present in the staging area.

But what if that "just" also pose a timing limitation? You can play the card only as the very first thing after an enemy is revealed from the enocunter deck, before any shenanigans with other responses. I know that the rules say that you can manage the order of the responses as you wish, but with this interpretation, the loophole that Seastan brought up would be break, as you have to play quick ears before anything else. If you "do stuff" in the meantime the card is not "just revealed" anymore, after all.

I wonder why the haven't done Disrupt like in the Call of Cthulhu LCG, or Interrupt like in the Game of Thrones LCG. That would have solved all the issues.

Star Wars LCG and Game of Thrones LCG have the "Interrupt" trigger for a reason. I'm just as surprised as you are that the LotR LCG designers didn't build that into the core framework, considering the core set had A Test of Will in it...

Yup, I was just reading that...Apparently Thalin and when exactly various effects trigger has already been discussed. No official ruling.

However, I might add we overlooked Toughness as a keyword. It seems Dont Be Hasty should be able to trigger before Toughness applies, but I also feel like Thalin should not be able to damage it before Toughness applies????

Toughness triggers when the possessing card receives damage, meaning Thalin's "free damage" triggers it. I don't see why Don't Be Hasty is relevant to the Toughness timing though...

EDIT:

...especially since an enemy possessing any value of Toughness makes it effectively immune to Thalin's single point of damage.

Toughness triggers when the possessing card receives damage, meaning Thalin's "free damage" triggers it. I don't see why Don't Be Hasty is relevant to the Toughness timing though...

EDIT:

...especially since an enemy possessing any value of Toughness makes it effectively immune to Thalin's single point of damage.

I think what cmabr002 is saying is akin to the following...

Thalin is questing and spots an enemy coming. Which enemy is it? What text is on his card? Thalin doesn't care, he's super-fast! The enemy doesn't have a moment to say one damned thing, including, "Yo, Thalin, I'm Tough, you can't hurt me!" or "Yo, Thalin, I'm immune to all things player card!" So at light speed Thalin pings the guy for 1 point of damage regardless -- by the time Toughness can resolve, or immunity can be in effect, it's too late.

This is an awkward reading, but the designers opened it up with the Eastern Crows ruling. Stupid crows!

I think what caelenvasius is saying is that you could think of Toughness as a response to receiving damage that cancels X points of damage. So Toughness isn't active when Thalin goes to apply the damage, but the damage itself triggers the Toughness response...

I think what caelenvasius is saying is that you could think of Toughness as a response to receiving damage that cancels X points of damage. So Toughness isn't active when Thalin goes to apply the damage, but the damage itself triggers the Toughness response...

Both interpretations are equally valid, in my opinion.

If its game text isn't active, Toughness cannot apply.

If its game text is active, Toughness would apply.

I think it makes more sense for cards game text to be active "as they are being revealed" since they can take damage and such...It really seems odd to me that as an enemy is being revealed its only active parts of the card are the "enemy" card type and its hit points. I assume both these parts are active as Thalin would be unable to damage it otherwise.

Unrelated to Toughness...I realized last night that Surge complicates the guide quite a bit. It does not just create a passive effect in Step 4. There are actually numerous encounter card effects that cause the card to "gain surge". Most of these happen at the same timing as the passive effect on Wingfoot.

Bolg: The first Goblin revealed each round gains surge.

Now, theoretically, we could eventually have a card that says "After an enemy enters play, discard it from play". So let's say we reveal a Goblin enemy (it gains Surge due to Bolg). Now, we play that theoretical card and discard the enemy after it "enters play". We know discarding it does not prevent Surge from triggering due to how Eleanor works.

Sadly...this means we have to put "Surge. A special case. Consider Surge to be initiated now but only resolve it after this card fully resolves, even if this card leaves play from an effect like Eleanor." in EACH step of our guide...which is...ugly.

I think this mostly applies to Doomed also with Doomed applying immediately and not just at the end like Surge.

If you compiled all of this into one big rules query to Caleb/Matt -- say, Seastan cleaned up and finalized his guide to revealing and asked, "Does this cover it?" -- I like to imagine the response would just be a link to a new FFG press release about LotR LCG 2.0.

(...please don't make them reboot...)

If you compiled all of this into one big rules query to Caleb/Matt -- say, Seastan cleaned up and finalized his guide to revealing and asked, "Does this cover it?" -- I like to imagine the response would just be a link to a new FFG press release about LotR LCG 2.0.

(...please don't make them reboot...)

Maybe they are just trying to outdo the US tax law as the most complicated rule book in history

I noticed some time ago that cards that "gain surge" or "gain doomed" as part of their When Revealed effect have apparently missed their chance to resolve these keywords. I think at the moment we can safely say "well, we know what this is supposed to mean, it doesn't cause trouble".

Formally, I would say that if a card gains Doomed or Surge as part of some effect, after the window for resolving these keywords has passed, these keywords resolve / begin to resolve immediately after the current effect is resolved, before anything else happens.

I noticed some time ago that cards that "gain surge" or "gain doomed" as part of their When Revealed effect have apparently missed their chance to resolve these keywords. I think at the moment we can safely say "well, we know what this is supposed to mean, it doesn't cause trouble".

Formally, I would say that if a card gains Doomed or Surge as part of some effect, after the window for resolving these keywords has passed, these keywords resolve / begin to resolve immediately after the current effect is resolved, before anything else happens.

I just wish they had told us Eleanor discarding the card means none of its effects can trigger even though it technically only canceled the "When Revealed" effects. It being discarded negates any future effects the card might have had since it is now out of play...but that's not what they told us so we have this mess

The Bolg wording is similar to the Expecting Mischief wording isn't it? So it would gain surge at that step and would have the surge keyword by the time it got to the keyword step.

But you are right, there are cards that "gain Doomed/Surge" as part of their when revealed effects. thanks for pointing that out. I think I have a solution but I might end up messing up other rulings.

Yeah, you're right, it is more akin to Expecting Mischief for Bolg.

Are you guys realizing how much trouble is caused by this "but the text isn't active" thing? KISS should be applied here. Yes, text is active! Or we create all these existential questions...

I stand with:

immune to player effects cards - no shenanigans. you can't interact with it.

otherwise I'm with everyone on the flowchart... it seems to have things covered.

Are you guys realizing how much trouble is caused by this "but the text isn't active" thing? KISS should be applied here. Yes, text is active! Or we create all these existential questions...

I stand with:

immune to player effects cards - no shenanigans. you can't interact with it.

otherwise I'm with everyone on the flowchart... it seems to have things covered.

I disagree. I know the above–mentioned problems can be painful but I enjoy deck–building for hero Beorn, finding possible combos.

Ok I have edited it. Let me know what you think.

I think the latest update looks pretty good. Here are some concerns:

1. I have sent FFG a question regarding Toughness and Eastern Crows game text being active or not because I feel it has such a major impact on how we play that we need to know the answer. Depending on the answer, I will follow up and ask about Immune to Player Card Effects, and various other effects. I hope the decision will be consistent.

2. In the current guide, we do have Toughness/Peril (keywords) before Don't Be Hasty. I assume the argument here is that Toughness/Peril are not "resolved" so Don't Be Hasty cannot activate before? I only ask, because while currently I do not think it matters, suppose the hero you ready with Don't Be Hasty has a theoretical attachment "When this hero readies, deal 1 damage to an enemy". This might allow you to damage the enemy, bypassing its Toughness. My personal opinion is that Toughness/Peril do not "resolve" so Don't Be Hasty cannot trigger before it, but want to make sure such an argument has no unintended consequences.