Firespray is not in need of help. It's still the 33pt terror that it was when it came out.

I feel some folks on here mistake a less selected ship as a bad one.

Boba Fett with Lone Wolf/Recon Specialist is just plain mean. I have watched Z95's try for round after round to do any substantial damage while they pop like balloons.

That being said. The Tie Defender really just plain wants the Sensor slot. That would cure many of its ailments with a simple title card of 0 cost. But I'm sure the fine folks at ffg already have a solution much more elegant than that and we will simply have to wait for them to illuminate us.

These ships need serious help.

There's now tons of table evidence, worlds/nationals no results (one or two in top32 of nationals DO NOT COUNT, just count the number of falcons and interceptors next time you ever dare utter those words), mathematically they are unsound jousting value wise.

A lot of us have played them over and over again and tried to make them work.

read before you post. read the mathwing. read jousting efficiency. Look at the table of nationals and worlds results. LOOK AT THE MOUNDS AND MOUNDS OF DATA YOU THINK YOU CAN IGNORE.

Then we talk.

Giving system (which is probably what was meant by sensor slot) to the advanced is gonna mean that the defender will NEVER get a system slot. FFG just doesn't repeat cards or 'fixes'. Which is a shame because the Defender could really use that slot, and a discounted system upgrade that is unique to the Defender.

These ships need serious help.

There's now tons of table evidence, worlds/nationals no results (one or two in top32 of nationals DO NOT COUNT, just count the number of falcons and interceptors next time you ever dare utter those words), mathematically they are unsound jousting value wise.

A lot of us have played them over and over again and tried to make them work.

read before you post. read the mathwing. read jousting efficiency. Look at the table of nationals and worlds results. LOOK AT THE MOUNDS AND MOUNDS OF DATA YOU THINK YOU CAN IGNORE.

Then we talk.

I'm not ignoring any evidence. All of the data you reference is but a sliver of actual game play. The community on this forum is only a fraction of all players of this fine game. People play Super interceptors etc because they believe that build is fundamentally strong and therefore worth taking. Using high level play as a reference to what is good and what is not good allows for zero depth.

Don't get me wrong, there is alot of good information to take away from jousting values and worlds top 32 lists but it's not ALL the information that needs to be addressed.

I quit using Firesprays BECAUSE they were so effective. It gets old and when you see the same faces after awhile nobody wants to play that match anymore.

Raw statistics only go so far. Do you honestly think Paul Heaver won purely off of jousting values and watching trends? No. He creates a squadron that he feels has the tools he needs and flys it in a spectacular fashion.

To be honest Blail Berg you offend me. You know better than to just state Math=Win.

What ALL ships in this game need are more reasons to be relevant not just those 1 or 2 that help break probability thereby forcing a more reliable result.

And yes I do agree Grimmyv. It's really unlikely the Tie Defender will get that sensor slot since you said FFG foes not repeat their fixes.

FFG could stop printing the garbage PS1/PS3 generic cards they come with and give them a middling PS Elite.

They're not entirely useless, but they very nearly are, and it means that generic Defenders, Es, and Starvipers almost never see the light of day.

Here's hoping either Es or Defenders get the free tech slot or similar. Scyk fix would be easy but they won't do it (0 point title reprint), but I'm counting on whatever they do to those to come with the Star Jewel. The Wild Karrde, assuming it shows up will probably come with some other small fighter plus fixes.

Still the real Defender solution:

Step 1.

Step 2.

Step 3.

Make it happen FFG!

I think the Firespray could use 1 of 2 things:

1. System slot. This would open the generics up to run FCS and get great action economy. It would also give the named pilots more freedom of EPT choice, and more ways to make it's 100 other upgrade slots really sing. I really think Boba Fett would've had some advanced sensors on his ship, or a Fire Control System. The ship was created before System slot, so I understand why it's not there, but it honestly should be!

2. Title or Missile Slot upgrade that gives -2 cost to a single upgrade (maybe to all but EPT), but only applies to an upgrade, so no free -2 pts on a naked ship. This'll make playing a dirty bounty hunter feel more like a dirty bounty hunter by giving you a free or reduced cost tool. You can just throw on a Seismic Charge or Tactician Crew or illicit upgrade for free. Sometimes it just feels bad running upgrades at the expense of potentially great supporting ships.

I like number one. It would certainly make Firesprays more viable and we would see them more frequently out of the box. But number 2 would make 3 BHs overpowered, and likely one of the top lists of the meta, in my opinion.

A topic about the Defender @_@ (and other ships)

I have used it often along with other three ties (Howl and two blacks) until I've been absolutely smashed by the Brobots. Rexler was demolished after the first volley of fire.

I tossed 9 attack dice on the brobots, and they evaded EVERYTHING.

(..)

For some odd reason the defender's fabulous three evade dice evade less than the (same) dice rolled by the brobots or Fel and friends.

Just tell me why, please.

You are saying this based on ONE volley from ONE match?

OH WOW BARREL ROLL.

I can roll to the side to get whooped better. -_-'

The ability to take Autothrusters notwithstanding, I'd rather have barrel-roll than boost on a ship.

Every time I have barrel roll on my action bar I want boost there instead, and every time boost is there I want barrel roll instead. I've accepted the fact that my planning abilities are less sharp than my opponent's for the moment.

Uh... Major Juggler's math shows the scum Firesprays and unique Starviper are solid ships, Blailblerg.

Although Boba sort of broke his old model so his estimate was wonky, I believe.

These ships need serious help.

There's now tons of table evidence, worlds/nationals no results (one or two in top32 of nationals DO NOT COUNT, just count the number of falcons and interceptors next time you ever dare utter those words), mathematically they are unsound jousting value wise.

A lot of us have played them over and over again and tried to make them work.

read before you post. read the mathwing. read jousting efficiency. Look at the table of nationals and worlds results. LOOK AT THE MOUNDS AND MOUNDS OF DATA YOU THINK YOU CAN IGNORE.

Then we talk.

These ships need serious help.

There's now tons of table evidence, worlds/nationals no results (one or two in top32 of nationals DO NOT COUNT, just count the number of falcons and interceptors next time you ever dare utter those words), mathematically they are unsound jousting value wise.

A lot of us have played them over and over again and tried to make them work.

read before you post. read the mathwing. read jousting efficiency. Look at the table of nationals and worlds results. LOOK AT THE MOUNDS AND MOUNDS OF DATA YOU THINK YOU CAN IGNORE.

Then we talk.

The jousting efficiency for the named ones aren't that bad, and the efficiency with cannons is skewed toward long range, which the Defender is quite well equipped to fight at. It's tough to use, but has very real advantages against a number of opponents.

Some of us have played them over and over, and experienced success.

FFG could stop printing the garbage PS1/PS3 generic cards they come with and give them a middling PS Elite.

They're not entirely useless, but they very nearly are, and it means that generic Defenders, Es, and Starvipers almost never see the light of day.

PS1 Defenders are the same way. Makes it really easy to pull off that white K-turn as well. Again, it forces your opponent's dial selection.

I love the firespray, but I will admit it's kind of the underdog when compared to the other large ships.

It's very much like the x-wing, in that it's good at a lot of things, but not great at much.

Some of the negatives about it:

No turret, so blind spots on sides

No native boost or barrel roll

Only 1 crew slot

No system slot

No ability to take auto thrusters

Not the best candidate for PTL because of the limited greens and no turret

And because of all those above, it has to be somewhat in the thick of the action to be effective, which means it can die quickly if focus fired and your dice fail you.

Im wanting to do some experimenting with the firespray but it looks like it might be easier to remove others actions (rebel cap, tactician) rather than increase firespray durability or action economy. I just dont trust recon specialist. I might like Mara and engine but that starts looking expensive. Im afraid of a 45 point firespray getting popped early and Im not sure imperials can prevent it. Maybe i should look into ysanne.

Pluses for Firespray:

Crew slot

Auxiliary arc

Evade action

Best bomber in the game (except Deathrain)

Can carry every secondary weapon except turrets

Decent dial, two k turns

Only Imperial/scum ship

Seems like a pretty cool ship.

Edit: I wonder how well Ysanne works on this thing, two guaranteed evades per round. Probably not that effecient but might be fun.

Pluses for Firespray:

Crew slot

Auxiliary arc

Evade action

Best bomber in the game

Can carry every secondary weapon except turrets

Decent dial, two k turns

Only Imperial/scum ship

Seems like a pretty cool ship.

I think both K-Wing and TIE Bomber (and Deathrain) would like to have a word with you...Emon is nice and VI Boba also carries the Proton Bomb with grace, but only the K-Wing can A-SLAM the mines and the Bomber is unrivaled at laying down massive areas of death.

Pluses for Firespray:

Crew slot

Auxiliary arc

Evade action

Best bomber in the game

Can carry every secondary weapon except turrets

Decent dial, two k turns

Only Imperial/scum ship

Seems like a pretty cool ship.

I think both K-Wing and TIE Bomber (and Deathrain) would like to have a word with you...Emon is nice and VI Boba also carries the Proton Bomb with grace, but only the K-Wing can A-SLAM the mines and the Bomber is unrivaled at laying down massive areas of death.

Must be why we saw so many bombs at worlds.

Pluses for Firespray:

Crew slot

Auxiliary arc

Evade action

Best bomber in the game (except Deathrain)

Can carry every secondary weapon except turrets

Decent dial, two k turns

Only Imperial/scum ship

Seems like a pretty cool ship.

Edit: I wonder how well Ysanne works on this thing, two guaranteed evades per round. Probably not that effecient but might be fun.

No double Evade token for a Firespray with Ysanne. Ysanne doesn't give a token, she gives an Evade action. Taking an Evade action during the perform action step essentially keeps Ysanne from doing anything.

I believe some IGs ran Ion Bombs pretty successfully, but yes, bomb centric builds aren't quite there, yet. The make your game entirely dependant on your manouvering, too, so a lot of people shy away from that, since you just can't guarantee being the best player at any tournament.

Pluses for Firespray:

Crew slot

Auxiliary arc

Evade action

Best bomber in the game (except Deathrain)

Can carry every secondary weapon except turrets

Decent dial, two k turns

Only Imperial/scum ship

Seems like a pretty cool ship.

Edit: I wonder how well Ysanne works on this thing, two guaranteed evades per round. Probably not that effecient but might be fun.

No double Evade token for a Firespray with Ysanne. Ysanne doesn't give a token, she gives an Evade action. Taking an Evade action during the perform action step essentially keeps Ysanne from doing anything.

Bummer. I don't have the decimator so I'm not too familiar with her.

I believe some IGs ran Ion Bombs pretty successfully, but yes, bomb centric builds aren't quite there, yet. The make your game entirely dependant on your manouvering, too, so a lot of people shy away from that, since you just can't guarantee being the best player at any tournament.

Bombs don't have to be dropped to be effective. Sometimes you can put the pressure on the opponent just by having that upgrade. Corran doesn't wanna be on your six when you carry a proton bomb.

never fielded a defender because I'm a Scum_rebel player. But we hav a couple defender enthusiasts that field them one at a time, in pairs... But every time it ends up a humiliating defeat for the Tie-D. From anything, be it a Rebel-Turret list, a swarm or the boosting_aces

Every time? That sounds... unlikely. Is this before or after the Twin Ion Engine Mk.II upgrade became a thing?

I have seen two TIE Defenders demolish an entire TIE swarm because they got into that perfect situation where they could freely k-turn while the swarm couldn't and was stressed half the time. The Defender player did have to roll some good defenses to get there, but when it happens it is brutal. FFG were right being so carefull about that white k, it is better to now later buff the Defender. It could have been broken, but now they can make it good.

As much as the OP may be inexperienced, none of those ships appeared in the top 16. They may not be complete junk but they are definitely not the most competitive ones. One thing I'd compare them to is a double bladed lightsaber. They are dangerous in the hands of a professional or a wild man, but otherwise very noob-unfriendly. Out of all three I'd say the Firespray is the most competitive.

As an ardent defender supporter I agree wholeheartedly. It was better to risk the defender being underpowered at release and over value the white k thank over power it out the gate and make fixing it difficult. I do enjoy how hard it is to use effectively..and it certainly can be very effective. It just takes a flight style that so many players can't perform

The FireSpray has a fix it's called tactician

Gunboat needs the most help, I never see them on the table!

Ahem...

Anyway, the Defender title should give some action economy, something like boost free action after a green maneuver or evade token after red maneuver. Simple, hasn't really been done as a title fix before, keeps the other upgrade slots open. Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship? It's problem has always been expense and action economy in the generics, fix that!

And the only thing that is added is a boost. again.

Once agan head-on into the PS-race? Definitely the wrong way.

There should be a place for "shipsof the line" as far as I can see.

And there is none. At most times if you're not a PS8+ booster and not a flying turret, big or small... You'e either a lowskill blocker, an IG or an easy target.

Defender is a ship that should be able to dish out and take hits, not arcdodge. Empire need some beef

Edit: I wonder how well Ysanne works on this thing, two guaranteed evades per round. Probably not that effecient but might be fun.

Well, she does not.

It's a "perorform a free evade action" and not "assign an evade token"

Can't do the same action twice...