Hello there, fellow dial-rotating player!

Today's topic is "why do some ships suffer and never ever appear in lists"

The first one on the list is Scyk. Also known as M3A-1

FFG already stated that some ships might get some love in the future.
But maybe they do surf their community forums, and might see good ideas here?

Ideas of "Aces of the Underworld" (Hopefully not too pompous sounding)
Contents: Scyk + Starviper
Pilots: 1 generic 1 medal-generic 2 Named per ship. One of the Named should be a 8-skill "Spacer" pilot card.
hopefully the otheir being Consortium pilot.

upgrades
Vectored engines
Modification. M3A Only
0 points
Immediately after revealing a green maneuver, you may perform a free Barrel Roll action using 1 bank maneuver template.

With this, Scyk would get an edge when it comes into close quarters dogfights, unpredictability when it is used as a blocker (A wing is still better but Hey, that's a "Rebels win" universe mind you!)
And a huge benefit for higher pilot skill ships, because they would be able to get a better spot, maybe even avoiding blocks.
It's still flimsy, still not a damage dealer and not a platform for nifty upgrades like Fire Control System, but it would be a dogfighter finally!
And even better, it would take up the Engine upgrade spot, (because frankly, boost is killing the maneuvering part)

More than that, Scum, Villainly and Mercenaries rarely fly in formations, tend to themselves and love chaos. That's what we need, I suppose!

The second scum ship that sees the light of the tables pretty rarely is Starviper.

So basically what is needed is a PS8 pilot, a PS6 pilot that can buff\debuff enemies and maybe some PS5 EP upgrade one. Because PS5 EP pilots seem to be the trend of the mercenary faction

Starviper title is already there, but where is the Xizors super-advanced unique targetting system that allowed anything to perform at over_the_peak levels?
Is it just Fire control system?
Nah, he needs some serious alternative to Advanced Sensors+PTL because it's just not interesting.

Experimental laser sighting
System. Starviper Only
3 points
Your enemy cannot use tokens to modify his defence roll results as long as you have a Target lock on him.

Now that's more likely. The system that corrects your firing angle so that even the best "I stock tokens because I am cool" pilots in the galaxy will have trouble, if he can have them in his sights long enough.

Ah yes, I forgot the one ship that i mentioned in the topic name.
THE FIRESPRAY.

While being pretty neat, balanced and reliable, it suffers greatly because of it being costy (almost as much as a full-360' Turret bigship)
And being big you have hard times with small enemies.

One thing that might save the Firespray is addition of Segnors loop.
yes, the segnors loop. it was performed by Boba if Wookiepedia doesn't lie to us.

So the right thing to do, to my mind, is retcon the Slave 1 title. A little.

Adding just

"when revealing a 3 bank maneuver, you may perform a segnors loop using it"
"treat it as a red maneuver"
And suddenly Imperial Fett is a MONSTER. because he can use any of the 2 segnors or banks.

But not only the SCum have useless pieces of Plasteel.

The other ship that definitely needs some loving is Tie Defender.
Boasting 3-3-3-3 stat line, it is 1 evade better than the new T-70 and 1 hull point tougher than E-wing.

It flies like a railroad train, hits like a truck and costs like 40k miniatures.

Too expensive to be used as a lancer-fencer because you'll get arcdodged like hell by all the nasty Boosting sons of ..ahem...

Too train-like to be used as a Solo-powerhouse ace.

And at most times it's pilots require extra outside support to shine (HLC Brax with outside support can rend and maim a huge ship for example)

It's 4 koiogran white is predictable as hell, and seems to be bumping the cost sky-high.

No, really, the T-70 has better maeuver dial, astromech, BOOST inbuilt!

Sure thing, REBELS WIN but something is amiss. Isn't Defender supposed to be THE pinnacle of twin ion engine fighter line?

What should it get?

maybe it should get it's super-awesome ion engine! P-sz9.7 twin ion engines to be precice.

With ability to shift their awesome power to maneuverability or firepower when needed.

Like this

P-sz9.7 twin ion engines
Modification. Tie-D only.

3 points

Action: perform a free boost action using 1 bank or 2 straight template.
If you cannot do so, you get 1 ion token and increase your primary weapon value by 1 for aturn

So it gets a super-boost that can't be 1 straight (this rapetrain knows no brakes!)

Or if you know how to maneuver like a boss, and can block yourself the boosting paths, or come into Range 1 with a big ship you can get yourself ionized to unload a metric ton of bricks in your enemies face.

Another viable upgrade for the Tie-D is the D.

Cannon that is.

it's supposed to be armed with a BATTERY of cannons and a couple ion cannons.

Integrated ion cannons

Secondary weapon
3 points

R1-2
Attack:3

Can be fired immediately after the primary weapon attack.

Must fire at the same target as the primary attack.

*basic ion cannon text I am too lazy to copy here*

Hopefully, I'm not the only one who thinks that all the ships are beautiful (except for HWK. nobody loves the HWK)

And all the ships should be made viable.

If you have anything to add, please do so.
Hopefully with the proper enthusiasm and help from the moderators we might actually create a thread with useful proposals to be read by the FFG itself.

Warpman out.
And yeah, a card for MMO fans out there. They know the feel.

E wing.

Before I make a full reply, can I ask how many times the OP has fielded these particular ships?

Before I make a full reply, can I ask how many times the OP has fielded these particular ships?

Being a huge fan of Scum-Firespray I field it in more than half of the games (but Latz Razzi is pushing it out)

Scyks have seen a lot of playtesting, but in the end have been reduced to "in case of Epic play open the box" ships.

Starviper in PTL+AdvSensors+AT build has been used extensively for months, until at the end of August half of our local meta suddenly started the PS race and every list has PS8+ boosters. So SV is now a dust-collector only seen twice last week. In non_tourney_level funplay.

never fielded a defender because I'm a Scum_rebel player. But we hav a couple defender enthusiasts that field them one at a time, in pairs... But every time it ends up a humiliating defeat for the Tie-D. From anything, be it a Rebel-Turret list, a swarm or the boosting_aces

Is the answer thorough enough?

Being a huge fan of Scum-Firespray I field it in more than half of the games (but Latz Razzi is pushing it out)

Yes, the Firespray is great, and Scum have definitely got the top end pilots and abilities for it. Interesting that it's being pushed out by a (new) support ship, especially when the ships operate completely differently.

Scyks have seen a lot of playtesting, but in the end have been reduced to "in case of Epic play open the box" ships.

"Playtested" how, exactly? What specific builds/loadouts/ship combinations? How did they perform? Where specifically did you experience problems with them?

Starviper in PTL+AdvSensors+AT build has been used extensively for months, until at the end of August half of our local meta suddenly started the PS race and every list has PS8+ boosters. So SV is now a dust-collector only seen twice last week. In non_tourney_level funplay.

That's one, very specific build you're focusing on there, and a unique one as it uses the Virago title. I'm assuming Xizor or Guri as you mentioned Push the Limit - what lists were they run in? Have you tried adapting that specific build to cope with the PS8 arms race? What about the generics pilots?

never fielded a defender because I'm a Scum_rebel player. But we hav a couple defender enthusiasts that field them one at a time, in pairs... But every time it ends up a humiliating defeat for the Tie-D. From anything, be it a Rebel-Turret list, a swarm or the boosting_aces

Every time? That sounds... unlikely. Is this before or after the Twin Ion Engine Mk.II upgrade became a thing?

Add generic E wings and bombers to that list. I think it's safe to assume that help is on the way soon(maybe today!) for some of these.

never fielded a defender because I'm a Scum_rebel player. But we hav a couple defender enthusiasts that field them one at a time, in pairs... But every time it ends up a humiliating defeat for the Tie-D. From anything, be it a Rebel-Turret list, a swarm or the boosting_aces

Every time? That sounds... unlikely. Is this before or after the Twin Ion Engine Mk.II upgrade became a thing?

I have seen two TIE Defenders demolish an entire TIE swarm because they got into that perfect situation where they could freely k-turn while the swarm couldn't and was stressed half the time. The Defender player did have to roll some good defenses to get there, but when it happens it is brutal. FFG were right being so carefull about that white k, it is better to now later buff the Defender. It could have been broken, but now they can make it good.

I think the title is spot-on: These shipd need some love. As in, go give them some love right now by putting them on the table and playing with them more.

Ptl vipers are super bleh. Don't limit their excellent dial with that ept

Predator/crackshot/vi (xizor)/LW (guri)

Fly like you don't give a ****

The viper aces, especially Xizor, are unique in that they canbjust straight plow through the enemy along with the jousters in the list.

With the system slot, thrusters, and action independent abilities, they don't care about stress like ptl ships do (unless you ruin it by using ptl)

Named Vipers aren't corran/soontir dejour, they're unique weird ships that demand a distinct play style

I played against an ion cannon scyk a few weeks ago and it was most certainly a thorn in my side protecting my opponents boss k.

You can run PTL, but if you do, also take Advanced Sensors. Being stressed is very bad.

Personally, I could go for a Defender title along the lines of:

Integrated Weapons Systems

0 pts (1?)

TIE Defender only.

After you perform an attack that hits, you may assign one ion token or one tractor token to the defender.

Of course, that depends on what the tractor beam actually does....

Gunboat needs the most help, I never see them on the table!

Ahem...

Anyway, the Defender title should give some action economy, something like boost free action after a green maneuver or evade token after red maneuver. Simple, hasn't really been done as a title fix before, keeps the other upgrade slots open. Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship? It's problem has always been expense and action economy in the generics, fix that!

Personally, I could go for a Defender title along the lines of:

Integrated Weapons Systems

0 pts (1?)

TIE Defender only.

After you perform an attack that hits, you may assign one ion token or one tractor token to the defender.

Of course, that depends on what the tractor beam actually does....

That's not a title, that's a cannon slot.

As for the Ewing:

Modification- Ewing Series 1: You may equip an Astromech named "R7" for free. Once per turn, you may turn 1 of your blank results into a hit or evade. If you do, your attack value becomes 1 until the end of next turn.

It denies Corran his double tap and Engine upgrade, and encurages droids other than R2D2. (any droid with R7 in the name, if I got the wording right) In return, it gives an always available attack or defence boost. A Knave Series 1 is 29 points for R7FCS- when focused down it's hiding behind 3 agility and 1 Palpatine per turn, with R7 on what it tried to shoot last round, while it's unfocused partner gets to imitate corran's doubletap by using the palp effect offensively.

Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship?

The Defender's dial, Statline, upgrade bar, and history make imply that it is meant to be the King of jousters. That's something it can't really do right now, as it's simply too expensive for its survivability.

Control ships help make jousting more viable, by making enemies predictable. Ioned blockers have a hard time doing much of anything.

Currently, adding a control cannon cuts deeply into the Defender's damage output. That means that while it swings around to deal with an Ioned TIE Interceptor, other ships are closing in on the Defender. With as much work as it takes to push 3 red dice (an ion cannon) past an Elite Squint, you might as well have shot the Squint with something that did more potential damage- and you'd save 3 points for elsewhere in your list.

By letting the Defender add control options to its primary attack, you let it perform the role it had in video games and books, you add something new and unique to the game, and you give the Defender the change to live long enough to earn back its points.

Other changes want to turn the Defender into a super Squint- I understand the impulse, but that's just not as interesting as it could be.

I think the Firespray could use 1 of 2 things:

1. System slot. This would open the generics up to run FCS and get great action economy. It would also give the named pilots more freedom of EPT choice, and more ways to make it's 100 other upgrade slots really sing. I really think Boba Fett would've had some advanced sensors on his ship, or a Fire Control System. The ship was created before System slot, so I understand why it's not there, but it honestly should be!

2. Title or Missile Slot upgrade that gives -2 cost to a single upgrade (maybe to all but EPT), but only applies to an upgrade, so no free -2 pts on a naked ship. This'll make playing a dirty bounty hunter feel more like a dirty bounty hunter by giving you a free or reduced cost tool. You can just throw on a Seismic Charge or Tactician Crew or illicit upgrade for free. Sometimes it just feels bad running upgrades at the expense of potentially great supporting ships.

As much as the OP may be inexperienced, none of those ships appeared in the top 16. They may not be complete junk but they are definitely not the most competitive ones. One thing I'd compare them to is a double bladed lightsaber. They are dangerous in the hands of a professional or a wild man, but otherwise very noob-unfriendly. Out of all three I'd say the Firespray is the most competitive.

Part of the problem with the Firespray is finding something to run next to it. Fat Han wasn't nearly as potent before Tala and Bandit Squadrons. Scum Z-95s are good, but not quite as good as they would need to be.

On the other wrist, if you're running Scum competitively, you're going to want to run BroBots or something at least as good. I'm not quite seeing it from other Scum ships.

So if we see a buff for Sycks, that alone might be enough to let Scum Firesprays see competitive play.

A topic about the Defender @_@ (and other ships)

I have used it often along with other three ties (Howl and two blacks) until I've been absolutely smashed by the Brobots. Rexler was demolished after the first volley of fire.
I tossed 9 attack dice on the brobots, and they evaded EVERYTHING.

Anyway back on topic. The defender needs (desperately) either a chop in squad points cost or a title-like card that will integrate boost -- it is unthinkable that a ship that costs 30 points for a ps1 generic only comes with focus, target lock and barrel roll.
OH WOW BARREL ROLL.
I can roll to the side to get whooped better. -_-'

For some odd reason the defender's fabulous three evade dice evade less than the (same) dice rolled by the brobots or Fel and friends.
Just tell me why, please.

OH WOW BARREL ROLL.

I can roll to the side to get whooped better. -_-'

The ability to take Autothrusters notwithstanding, I'd rather have barrel-roll than boost on a ship.

I have to disagree with the OP's views on the Starviper and the Firespray. Neither of these ships need help.

Starviper

The key to flying the Starviper well is to realize it IS NOT an arch dodger. It is a fighter, not an interceptor. It would be better to compare the Starviper to an X-wing or a TIE Fighter. Once you realize this, it can be a nasty ship to contend with! I would love to see more named Starvipers and a generic with an EPT, but it is very good at what it is designed to do.

Firespray

While many will argue that the Scum versions are better, I don't think the ship itself has any issues. It has a great dial and action economy. It also has the ability to load crew and many different types of ordinance. (and at a good price)

Gunboat needs the most help, I never see them on the table!

Ahem...

Anyway, the Defender title should give some action economy, something like boost free action after a green maneuver or evade token after red maneuver. Simple, hasn't really been done as a title fix before, keeps the other upgrade slots open. Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship? It's problem has always been expense and action economy in the generics, fix that!

Ion plus white four k is lethal.

For some odd reason the defender's fabulous three evade dice evade less than the (same) dice rolled by the brobots or Fel and friends.

Just tell me why, please.

No crew or system slot. Also, the generics do not have EPTs. There is nothing to give the generics better action economy and very little for the named pilots. If the Defenders had a crew or system slot, it would change how effective they could be.

Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship?

The Defender's dial, Statline, upgrade bar, and history make imply that it is meant to be the King of jousters. That's something it can't really do right now, as it's simply too expensive for its survivability.

Control ships help make jousting more viable, by making enemies predictable. Ioned blockers have a hard time doing much of anything.

Currently, adding a control cannon cuts deeply into the Defender's damage output. That means that while it swings around to deal with an Ioned TIE Interceptor, other ships are closing in on the Defender. With as much work as it takes to push 3 red dice (an ion cannon) past an Elite Squint, you might as well have shot the Squint with something that did more potential damage- and you'd save 3 points for elsewhere in your list.

By letting the Defender add control options to its primary attack, you let it perform the role it had in video games and books, you add something new and unique to the game, and you give the Defender the change to live long enough to earn back its points.

Other changes want to turn the Defender into a super Squint- I understand the impulse, but that's just not as interesting as it could be.

I didn't realize jousting was so interesting.

But I guess maybe if you throw in some 'native' ion control maybe it will make for a better jouster. At least it can already reposition.

Gunboat needs the most help, I never see them on the table!

Ahem...

Anyway, the Defender title should give some action economy, something like boost free action after a green maneuver or evade token after red maneuver. Simple, hasn't really been done as a title fix before, keeps the other upgrade slots open. Every time I see the 'linked weapons' or what ever idea I wonder why people want the defender to spit out ion tokens...are we really trying to turn this thing into a control ship? It's problem has always been expense and action economy in the generics, fix that!

Ion plus white four k is lethal.

So I hear. Too bad it can't take an ion cannon...oh wait.

Yeah I guess if the primary can plink off an ion token that would be cool, maybe a title that allows for one damage result from a hit to be converted to an ion token, that sounds like a good free title. Otherwise throwing an ion token on top of regular primary damage will probably cost 2.