My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yeah, Xizor's ability is solid, but right now it is being bypassed by TLT frequently. While I don't think the TLT sky is falling, it is quite popular and completely wrecks Xizor's ability. If you plan on running him competitively you need to have a good plan to survive TLTs.

thrusters, done

TLTs are hilariously overblown in terms of their projected damage potential. The match between Nathan and the K-wings should have shown that quite easily; they are very prone to ficklereddice

Also, if the lack of greens is hindering the Viper with PTL, then we're faced with the larger problem of people trying to put PTL on the Viper

it's pointless, the ship has no evade action and can access much more viable EPTs to use with its beautiful dial (predator, VI, crackshot, lonewolf for guri etc.)

as for cost, your super Xizor is two points more than typical soontir and one point cheaper than typical Poe

I'd suggest people start practicing their Vipers, because now that Heaver has described the R3-a2, god of stress, Y-wing as "the best rebel ship" you're going to want someone that can deal with it. Guri and Xizor, between their abilities/epts/system slot etc. just plain don't give a **** compared to your typical ace de jour

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

Here's your bridge:

Xizor's ability

I play him for a **** good reason

Also, he does not need double reposition. Unlike the other aces, he can tank (with fodder).

And anyone considering the dial to be merely "decent" needs a reality check. That's ALL speed 2 and 1 maneuvers available and not red.

It's only not a good dial if you use PTL, but that's entirely the fault of whoever thought that was a good idea

Xizor is really interesting, and I'm a huge fan of flying him, and I have done so with good success in local tournaments.

He can tank effectively in the early game and you can build him to be a really dangerous late game closer, but a lot of that depends on his ability working. TLT neatly bypasses that ability and forces you to rely on autothrusters and sensor jammer if you eat those points.

I'd say that in the current TLT rich environment he is at a significant disadvantage, relative to pre-wave 7.

Yeah, you've all said basically what I was thinking. But the main reason for Adv. Homing Missiles isn't the crit, but the damage that bypasses shields on a ship that can regenerate. Seems good in theory. And my philosophy is that if I'm throwing three attack dice at three defense dice, I'm likely only going to get one damage through anyway.

Maybe it's better to just spam Proton Bombs...

I think it was mentioned upsthread, but I think Connor Net is a better option with much more universal use.

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yeah, Xizor's ability is solid, but right now it is being bypassed by TLT frequently. While I don't think the TLT sky is falling, it is quite popular and completely wrecks Xizor's ability. If you plan on running him competitively you need to have a good plan to survive TLTs.

thrusters, done

TLTs are hilariously overblown in terms of their projected damage potential. The match between Nathan and the K-wings should have shown that quite easily; they are very prone to ficklereddice

Also, if the lack of greens is hindering the Viper with PTL, then we're faced with the larger problem of people trying to put PTL on the Viper

it's pointless, the ship has no evade action and can access much more viable EPTs to use with its beautiful dial (predator, VI, crackshot, lonewolf for guri etc.)

as for cost, your super Xizor is two points more than typical soontir and one point cheaper than typical Poe

I'd suggest people start practicing their Vipers, because now that Heaver has described the R3-a2, god of stress, Y-wing as "the best rebel ship" you're going to want someone that can deal with it. Guri and Xizor, between their abilities/epts/system slot etc. just plain don't give a **** compared to your typical ace de jour

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

Here's your bridge:

Xizor's ability

I play him for a **** good reason

Also, he does not need double reposition. Unlike the other aces, he can tank (with fodder).

And anyone considering the dial to be merely "decent" needs a reality check. That's ALL speed 2 and 1 maneuvers available and not red.

It's only not a good dial if you use PTL, but that's entirely the fault of whoever thought that was a good idea

I play a list with 5 Z-95s, too. Xizor is now tethered to a bunch of Z-95s and in the late game he doesn't have that ability any more. His tactics are super predictable which leads me to wonder why the hell you would choose an ace as a 40 point support for 5 Zs. Xizor isn't potent enough to be worth building a list around. If I want to blow 40 points I can put down a YV that's a lot more dangerous than Xizor.

how you're "Tethered" to anything when there's five of them flooding the table is beyond me. that is a huge potential footprint

a "super predictable" Xizor is simply a product of a "super predictable" player. Honestly, if that label meant anything, then BBBBZ would never have been a thing and neither would the World Champ's list for that matter. A poe stuck to greens and only a boost? Must've been super predictable

and no, you can't make a deadlier 40 point something of "oh dear, you got behind me...gg?"

not to mention that fat ass, and that single agility without thrusters...

now, what you could do is fly a 36 point Ace killer in slaver + gunner + bossk and run it with Xizor. Given its ability to smack aces around, you might not even need V.I

how you're "Tethered" to anything when there's five of them flooding the table is beyond me. that is a huge potential footprint

a "super predictable" Xizor is simply a product of a "super predictable" player. Honestly, if that label meant anything, then BBBBZ would never have been a thing and neither would the World Champ's list for that matter. A poe stuck to greens and only a boost? Must've been super predictable

and no, you can't make a deadlier 40 point something of "oh dear, you got behind me...gg?"

not to mention that fat ass, and that single agility without thrusters...

now, what you could do is fly a 36 point Ace killer in slaver + gunner + bossk and run it with Xizor. Given its ability to smack aces around, you might not even need V.I

Sure, if you're getting into late games with 5 Z-95s left, then you're gonna win anyway, no matter what your list is. Xizor is not going to die in the first pass except to TLTs, maybe, but people are just going to try bagging Zs.

In some cases the raw firepower brought by those Zs is going to absolutely wtfpwn whatever, like a noob pancake player, and you'll never need Xizor to do much, but the good players run lists that can absolutely shred the Zs. Xizor's not gonna have much trouble getting to the late game if he sticks with the Zs but then his inadequacies as an ace come to the fore, his weaker action economy, less solid dial, dependence on a PS bid. Xizor's firepower ad maneuverability is not such that he's just impossible to ignore. You can get away with just blasting away at the Zs in the early game and taking him down later.

Running a bosskinator+Xizor puts you in a pretty low firepower list against the fatties available in the game and tends to make the YV a primo target. It's true that the YV is a bit helpless if it gets to the late game against an ace with no support left, though I think if you're patient and willing to disengage and re-engage you have more of a chance than you think(put distance then turn around, using the YV's strong straight-line speed.)

Truth be told, I haven't played out enough Xizor end-games to see whether he's actually going to beat other aces but my gut tells me he just doesn't have enough going for him to win, but i've been wrong before. I do think you're crazy to think he's going to be a big part of the meta, though. Xizor and 5 Z-95s has been there since Most Wanted, though, and I think if it was a particularly good list more people would've latched on to it the way it happened to Brobots.

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

What's good about Xizor is that he doesn't need to re position to be effective like Soontir Fel and others. As long as he has his meat shields nearby, it's OK. That's what makes Xizor good. Give him FCS and he's alright. I've used him with 5 Z's to good effect and think it's an effective list. You don't need PTL to be good.

The problem with Xizor and his ability is that he is not dangerous enough.He is no threat at all. It is not a big deal not to shoot at him until all his friends around him are dead

You realize he's more damaging than most other aces in the same weight class, right? That FCS gives him substantially more damage over time than Sootir Fel, especially when actions aren't available for offense.

He also can use all of his dial, not just the green parts. I have outmanouvered Soontirs with my Vipers just on that basis.

I think people shouldn't think of Xizor as a typical late game ace. He's an all game ace. He starts with a very strong jousting ability thanks to FCS and his ability to shunt damage and ends the game with a solid, if not Fellian level of maneuverability. That is a hell of a dial, though. All speed 1 moves is something else.

He also can use all of his dial, not just the green parts. I have outmanouvered Soontirs with my Vipers just on that basis.

hmm...! have to try that one out, seriously.

I've just started running two Enforcers with Fett. Worked nicely so far. The dial is brilliant, they're great blockers, and they took out a couple of Phantoms quite nicely

I suppose one of the downsides of a lack of a clear meta is that it makes ordnance even less reliable. Several missiles and torpedoes are very specialised, and only worth it when you're certain to be facing a particular type of ship/fleet: i.e. evasive (homing missile), swarm (assault), high health with >3 shields (plasma). That being said, can't help but think that, on the right ship or in the right fleet, cluster and concussion missiles would still be highly potent against many oft-encountered ships. High damage output could wreck a palpmobile, seriously hurts high agility ships (perhaps destroy them before regeneration), blast a TLT Y off the table well before it can shoot. But I suppose we simply are too much stuck with the fact that lists with ordnance tend to be very specialised towards that goal (Jendon, squad leader, fleet commander, Cracken).

Still.. who, a year ago, would have thought the 2015 World Finals would see several Y-Wings, an A-Wing and a (type of) X-Wing duke it out? A few upgrade cards and a corresponding shift in the meta can clearly change a lot. Bring on Wave 8!

I suppose one of the downsides of a lack of a clear meta is that it makes ordnance even less reliable. Several missiles and torpedoes are very specialised, and only worth it when you're certain to be facing a particular type of ship/fleet: i.e. evasive (homing missile), swarm (assault), high health with >3 shields (plasma). That being said, can't help but think that, on the right ship or in the right fleet, cluster and concussion missiles would still be highly potent against many oft-encountered ships. High damage output could wreck a palpmobile, seriously hurts high agility ships (perhaps destroy them before regeneration), blast a TLT Y off the table well before it can shoot. But I suppose we simply are too much stuck with the fact that lists with ordnance tend to be very specialised towards that goal (Jendon, squad leader, fleet commander, Cracken).

Still.. who, a year ago, would have thought the 2015 World Finals would see several Y-Wings, an A-Wing and a (type of) X-Wing duke it out? A few upgrade cards and a corresponding shift in the meta can clearly change a lot. Bring on Wave 8!

Cluster missiles maybe, but most of the missiles don't actually have that much better damage output than a primary considering the actions put in to firing them unless you're talking about a Z-95. Crackshot emulates the actual effect of most of the missiles for a lot fewer points and/or actions(though the 1 point cost is illusory because the black squadron tie is paying extra for the EPT.)

That being said, I do like the wide-open meta and I was surprised about the lack of turrets- I knew people were spooked but I didn't think they were that spooked. I think a good chewie or Han build has nice game against a lot of the top 8 lists. I'm thinking some kind of slim Han build with 3 PS1 A-wings as blocking buddies.

I'd assume Homing Missiles are a good flexible call for all metas. It is still 4 dice that reduce mitigation of Fat Turrets, aces are hit even harder by not using the evade. Against swarms they aren't as good, but killing a ship is still killing a ship. I shy away from modificationless ordnance. The Scum Glittercluster swarm looks fun. Maybe not exactly a swarm: http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Scum%20and%20Villainy&d=v3!s!115:14,128:-1:-1:;115:14,128:-1:-1:;115:14,128:-1:-1:;115:14,128:-1:-1:;126:135,-1,-1:3:-1:

I'd assume Homing Missiles are a good flexible call for all metas. It is still 4 dice that reduce mitigation of Fat Turrets, aces are hit even harder by not using the evade. Against swarms they aren't as good, but killing a ship is still killing a ship. I shy away from modificationless ordnance. The Scum Glittercluster swarm looks fun.

Homing missiles are a lot of points, though. Yeah, I mean they have game against anything but you're paying for that.

Lucky that we have Extra Munitions now. one for 5? Bad. 2 for 7? Sure! 2 for 5 (assuming you count EM just as second seismic, which is of course not entirely true)? Fantastic!

Homing Missiles are not the ones you can spam with Z-95s, but they are the best call for the real ordnance platforms if you want to run missiles/torps.

Lucky that we have Extra Munitions now. one for 5? Bad. 2 for 7? Sure! 2 for 5 (assuming you count EM just as second seismic, which is of course not entirely true)? Fantastic!

Homing Missiles are not the ones you can spam with Z-95s, but they are the best call for the real ordnance platforms if you want to run missiles/torps.

Yeah, you're getting into K-wing/Punisher territory there. Redline is a wonderful ordnance carrier if you want to shoot some missiles, he can do it. The K-wing is a bit more iffy to me as an ordnance carrier, but that FCS+Redline is great stuff.

Scimitar Squadron Pilots, honestly. Redline is better with the "bad" cards, since he has his way to modify them. K-Wings might also like the Homing Missile and even get to also replicate a Conner Net with it, but that gets a bit too expensive for my taste.

I am honestly confused about all this talk about the StarViper having a bad dial...

I am honestly confused about all this talk about the StarViper having a bad dial...

It's a pretty good dial but it doesn't have that PTL-enabling level of greens that the int/A have. No way to try to build a Jake/Soontir.

It's a fighter, not an interceptor. No reason to use it for something it wasn't designed to do.

I am honestly confused about all this talk about the StarViper having a bad dial...

It's a pretty good dial but it doesn't have that PTL-enabling level of greens that the int/A have. No way to try to build a Jake/Soontir.

This!

It's a fighter, not an interceptor. No reason to use it for something it wasn't designed to do.

Yes you are right. But the point was that scum is lacking an efficient high PS interceptor ship. StarViper was for me just the closest candidate to fulfill this requirements most likely (because of integrated boost and barrel roll). But unfortunately not good enough to compete

I see a ship with both boost and barrel roll, I want to make it an arc dodger. I see that it has 5 HP and a wide open dial, and I want to make it an arc dodger.

But the greens it has don't give me many movement options when reducing stress, so PTL is out the door. That means that the action economy is not quite good enough to use it as an arc dodger.

And, of course, Xizor's ability limits his choices to "whatever a flock of Z-95s can keep up with."

I guess you can slap Predator on there and be a Jouster with a great dial. And if I'm jousting anyway, for 3 points fewer than basic Xizor I can swap out for basic Cobra.

I very much think the illicit cloaking device is going to be very strong on Virago titled StarVipers. But they're not out yet, and that won't at all help the generics.

The Starviper is not an arc-dodger, it's a hunter. The named one at least.

Give it FCS and there, you have your action economy. Use this wonderful dial to keep your target in sight and then use your action to Focus to either shoot with a F+TL or help in defense, or boost or barrel roll to reposition to stay in line and still be able to shoot with a TL. Give it Autothrusters to help in defense. Pick your target, and tail it.

PtL is not the be all/end all of EPT; There is other options. Don't fly this ship expecting it to be like an Interceptor, because it's not.