I think the most important lesson we've learned is that a significant portion of the really good players were very cagey about even revealing the pieces they thought would be competitive.

I follow X wing pretty close and like half of the top 16 had elements I would have raised an eyebrow at if someone brought them to casual play.

Which is why it's important to not listen to what the podcasts are saying about the meta. These are all players first and foremost. They'e not going to talk about what they think will actually win or the lists they think will be top contenders because they don't want people preparing for them. Especially NOVA.

People saying that the game is well balanced, to me is entertaining. You can't say it's balanced when you have ships like the A-Wing and Scyk that are not even showing up (there's something wrong there)? The A-wing is a staple in the original trilogy yet it has been placed on the back shelf with its limited two fire power. The A-Wing needs something that gives it more punch. Everyone flying 3 evade ships with autothrusters makes the A-wing inept at doing damage other than a one shot secondary munition. FFG fixed the Tie Advanced (also a 2 firepower ship) with advanced targeting computer, but left the A-wing behind.

Scum also needs to be fixed. They have the least amount of ships compared to the other factions, even though they share four of the other factions' ships. Scum needs a fix to the StarViper's cost to bring it into usage. StarViper also needs better pilot abilities. Scum also needs another ship that can use System Upgrades. Right now only Aggressor and StarViper can use system upgrades and even then only one StarViper can equip it due to a title limitation. That needs a fix.

The one other thing I haven't heard is how the new MOV rules affected the scores of participants overall. I am curious how destroying half a large based ship's health affected the placement of persons throughout the tournament. Does anyone have a summary on that? That rule also affects SCUM heavily more so than any other faction. With the Aggressors being 8 overall health and every other large based ship in the game having over 10 health, it really puts a damper on playing Brobots if you're concerned with giving away MOV points. Why is it unfair towards SCUM? Because both the Rebels and Imperials have small based ships that have a higher overall health (Punisher and K-Wing) but are small based ships. The MOV rule doesnt pertain to any other ship under 10 overall health other than the Aggressor. I think that the rule should be for ships with an overall health of 10 rather than the size of the base. That would even it out across the factions.

Just my $.02

Lue

People saying that the game is well balanced, to me is entertaining. You can't say it's balanced when you have ships like the A-Wing and Scyk that are not even showing up (there's something wrong there)? The A-wing is a staple in the original trilogy yet it has been placed on the back shelf with its limited two fire power. The A-Wing needs something that gives it more punch. Everyone flying 3 evade ships with autothrusters makes the A-wing inept at doing damage other than a one shot secondary munition. FFG fixed the Tie Advanced (also a 2 firepower ship) with advanced targeting computer, but left the A-wing behind.

Scum also needs to be fixed. They have the least amount of ships compared to the other factions, even though they share four of the other factions' ships. Scum needs a fix to the StarViper's cost to bring it into usage. StarViper also needs better pilot abilities. Scum also needs another ship that can use System Upgrades. Right now only Aggressor and StarViper can use system upgrades and even then only one StarViper can equip it due to a title limitation. That needs a fix.

The one other thing I haven't heard is how the new MOV rules affected the scores of participants overall. I am curious how destroying half a large based ship's health affected the placement of persons throughout the tournament. Does anyone have a summary on that? That rule also affects SCUM heavily more so than any other faction. With the Aggressors being 8 overall health and every other large based ship in the game having over 10 health, it really puts a damper on playing Brobots if you're concerned with giving away MOV points. Why is it unfair towards SCUM? Because both the Rebels and Imperials have small based ships that have a higher overall health (Punisher and K-Wing) but are small based ships. The MOV rule doesnt pertain to any other ship under 10 overall health other than the Aggressor. I think that the rule should be for ships with an overall health of 10 rather than the size of the base. That would even it out across the factions.

Just my $.02

Lue

There was, in fact, an A-wing on the final table. The A-wing is a lot cheaper than the Tie Advanced and not much less survivable. The PS1 proto pilot is an amazing blocker at 15 points and can joust in a pinch.

I think you're a bit off base with the A-wing. Brobots got to the top 4 and lost a fairley dicey game. I think they're fine, just not as dominant as they could've been before.

The Scyk and StarViper kinda suck, though, for the most part. The best scum aces IMO come in firesprays and that's pretty sad.

It is generally balanced. Dont think any of us are claiming perfect balance. There are definitely ships in need of help but FFG has shown willing to do so.

A wing did show up btw.

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yeah, Xizor's ability is solid, but right now it is being bypassed by TLT frequently. While I don't think the TLT sky is falling, it is quite popular and completely wrecks Xizor's ability. If you plan on running him competitively you need to have a good plan to survive TLTs.

thrusters, done

TLTs are hilariously overblown in terms of their projected damage potential. The match between Nathan and the K-wings should have shown that quite easily; they are very prone to ficklereddice

Also, if the lack of greens is hindering the Viper with PTL, then we're faced with the larger problem of people trying to put PTL on the Viper

it's pointless, the ship has no evade action and can access much more viable EPTs to use with its beautiful dial (predator, VI, crackshot, lonewolf for guri etc.)

as for cost, your super Xizor is two points more than typical soontir and one point cheaper than typical Poe

I'd suggest people start practicing their Vipers, because now that Heaver has described the R3-a2, god of stress, Y-wing as "the best rebel ship" you're going to want someone that can deal with it. Guri and Xizor, between their abilities/epts/system slot etc. just plain don't give a **** compared to your typical ace de jour

I think the prototype in the finals was very iconic, zipping around and blocking like crazy. Who needs named Awing pilots?

The top 16 was extremely varied and that argues for a better balanced meta than we've had in a long time. I don't remember seeing if Anyone brought a Kirhaxz (or 5) to worlds, which is surprising since that was supposed to be an effecient ship/list.

Who is ficklereddice?

Fickler Edd Ice? Fick Lerredice? Ficklered ICE?

Oh.....

green, you got competition.

I think the prototype in the finals was very iconic, zipping around and blocking like crazy. Who needs named Awing pilots?

The top 16 was extremely varied and that argues for a better balanced meta than we've had in a long time. I don't remember seeing if Anyone brought a Kirhaxz (or 5) to worlds, which is surprising since that was supposed to be an effecient ship/list.

I had 1 Kirhaxz and the guy next to me had 3, we were at the last two tables round 8. Shook hands because we were the only Kirhaxzs we'd seen all of worlds.

I think the prototype in the finals was very iconic, zipping around and blocking like crazy. Who needs named Awing pilots?

The top 16 was extremely varied and that argues for a better balanced meta than we've had in a long time. I don't remember seeing if Anyone brought a Kirhaxz (or 5) to worlds, which is surprising since that was supposed to be an effecient ship/list.

I had 1 Kirhaxz and the guy next to me had 3, we were at the last two tables round 8. Shook hands because we were the only Kirhaxzs we'd seen all of worlds.

Awesome. Too bad the Special K fighter is so ugly...although not as bugly as the Scyk.

I think the most important lesson we've learned is that a significant portion of the really good players were very cagey about even revealing the pieces they thought would be competitive.

I follow X wing pretty close and like half of the top 16 had elements I would have raised an eyebrow at if someone brought them to casual play.

Which is why it's important to not listen to what the podcasts are saying about the meta. These are all players first and foremost. They'e not going to talk about what they think will actually win or the lists they think will be top contenders because they don't want people preparing for them. Especially NOVA.

I don't think anyone is trying to mislead anyone else, but if anyone thought they were getting the whole story from podcast analysis, I don't really have any pity for them.

I think the most important lesson we've learned is that a significant portion of the really good players were very cagey about even revealing the pieces they thought would be competitive.

I follow X wing pretty close and like half of the top 16 had elements I would have raised an eyebrow at if someone brought them to casual play.

Which is why it's important to not listen to what the podcasts are saying about the meta. These are all players first and foremost. They'e not going to talk about what they think will actually win or the lists they think will be top contenders because they don't want people preparing for them. Especially NOVA.

Wait. Did you actually listen to what you thought was a bunch of people trying to trick you for 3+ hours?

Do you honestly believe they conspired to trick their listeners, asked a couple of guests to help in the deceit, and took who knows how long to record and edit a bunch of lies so they could gain a competitive advantage?!

And even if you DO believe that, then how do you explain their accurate estimations about what you'll see?

-A(n un)healthy amount of TLTs, with a quad TLT list placing highly but not in first? Check.

-Brobots (the EXACT build described on the latest NOVA podcast)? Check.

-Paul made an argument for VI+R2-D2 on Poe and then won it with this build

The only thing they got "wrong" was underestimating the continued relevance of Corran. Sure he doesn't have access to autothrusters and is therefore weaker against TLTs than other aces, but 3 greens, evade, and shield regen are a more than sufficient defense.

Was this the one instance of them successfully lying to us all and they accidentally told the truth a bunch of other times?

People saying that the game is well balanced, to me is entertaining. You can't say it's balanced when you have ships like the A-Wing and Scyk that are not even showing up (there's something wrong there)? The A-wing is a staple in the original trilogy yet it has been placed on the back shelf with its limited two fire power. The A-Wing needs something that gives it more punch. Everyone flying 3 evade ships with autothrusters makes the A-wing inept at doing damage other than a one shot secondary munition. FFG fixed the Tie Advanced (also a 2 firepower ship) with advanced targeting computer, but left the A-wing behind.

Scum also needs to be fixed. They have the least amount of ships compared to the other factions, even though they share four of the other factions' ships. Scum needs a fix to the StarViper's cost to bring it into usage. StarViper also needs better pilot abilities. Scum also needs another ship that can use System Upgrades. Right now only Aggressor and StarViper can use system upgrades and even then only one StarViper can equip it due to a title limitation. That needs a fix.

The one other thing I haven't heard is how the new MOV rules affected the scores of participants overall. I am curious how destroying half a large based ship's health affected the placement of persons throughout the tournament. Does anyone have a summary on that? That rule also affects SCUM heavily more so than any other faction. With the Aggressors being 8 overall health and every other large based ship in the game having over 10 health, it really puts a damper on playing Brobots if you're concerned with giving away MOV points. Why is it unfair towards SCUM? Because both the Rebels and Imperials have small based ships that have a higher overall health (Punisher and K-Wing) but are small based ships. The MOV rule doesnt pertain to any other ship under 10 overall health other than the Aggressor. I think that the rule should be for ships with an overall health of 10 rather than the size of the base. That would even it out across the factions.

Just my $.02

Lue

just on the awings:

erm.. a-wings pop up in SO MANY GOOD terrorist rebel lists.. and rightly so.

in spare time, go to youtube and watch some games there (tc aces, for example. many others out there, though to be fair); a lot of awing-flying going on there. or watch the final and (more importantly!) the semi-final of worlds 2015 -the awing is KEY in that game to trash the brobots, and the botplayer can do little about it once/if he realises it (no judgement! we all have these moments. I know I do!).

a-wings are -very- good ships. watch others how to use them, experiment and try on your own. rinse and repeat. once you'll get the hang of it, you won't leave home without awings.

I think the prototype in the finals was very iconic, zipping around and blocking like crazy. Who needs named Awing pilots?

The top 16 was extremely varied and that argues for a better balanced meta than we've had in a long time. I don't remember seeing if Anyone brought a Kirhaxz (or 5) to worlds, which is surprising since that was supposed to be an effecient ship/list.

I had 1 Kirhaxz and the guy next to me had 3, we were at the last two tables round 8. Shook hands because we were the only Kirhaxzs we'd seen all of worlds.

Awesome. Too bad the Special K fighter is so ugly...although not as bugly as the Scyk.

Honestly it's just that dumb paint job, same with the M3-A.

Commissioned a friend to paint them Black Sun colors. They look awesome.

The Awing is amazing! It's the only ship that can take two EPTs! The possibilities with that are endless! Prockets were literally made for it, and the Pilot abilities are legendary. Muon ran a Jake, Poe and Biggs build that cleaned up in Galactic Championship. As for scum? It's young, people don't know how to play with it and the ships are still new in a lot of hands, it'll find its strongest stride.

I think the prototype in the finals was very iconic, zipping around and blocking like crazy. Who needs named Awing pilots?

The top 16 was extremely varied and that argues for a better balanced meta than we've had in a long time. I don't remember seeing if Anyone brought a Kirhaxz (or 5) to worlds, which is surprising since that was supposed to be an effecient ship/list.

I had 1 Kirhaxz and the guy next to me had 3, we were at the last two tables round 8. Shook hands because we were the only Kirhaxzs we'd seen all of worlds.

I think that Kirhaxz is decent ship that's in a bad spot. They've got Scum's only PS 9 pilot but he's in a ship with no ability to really take advantage of moving last. He's kind of in the same boat as Wedge. Graz got hit with the No-EPT curse leaving him time to hang out in the cantina with Kir Kanos and Krassis.

The generics will probably see some play when someone has an otherwise decent list with Khiraxz sized hole in it.

Dengar is PS 9

Xizor is effectively 9 at no drawback (go FCS!)

Special Ks aren't aces, they're elite ankle biters. Blacksun ace with stims and crackshot is a brutal bit of "Ordnance" that works

I think the meta is pretty healthy. I like where the game is now.

I also think people fly what they are used to. I think that most tournament players have been flying Rebels since the days of Fat Turrets. People have a hard time trying something new and doing as well. I think that a lot of people stick with what they are familiar with. Even if most didn't take Fat Turrets, they are still used to flying with Rebel ships. I think that accounts for the majority of the Rebels. I also think it is why we see less Scum. I think it's why we don't see more Khiraxz Fighters. There are a number of ships that are new and only the K-wing and TLT's are amazing options. The rest will take some time for people to figure out how to fly well. I think there are a lot of great options we didn't see, but I think it will take a bit of time for people to get used to using them.

Four TLT's is one thing, but one or two in a list isn't broken. I also think TLT's are good vs. Fat Turrets and Aces. They strip the tokens off aces. Right now people are flying a lot of aces. I think TLT's are alright, but might not be as amazing in the long run. I think they frustrate what is popular and beloved at the moment. Things like 3 aces lists usually don't like TLT's.

I believe Ordnance is alright now and you can build comfortable lists. Extra Munitions makes Homing Missiles an affordable option and deals with all the things people say is no good about ordnance. You get to keep the TL and they don't get to use an Evade. I think people are just not used to using Ordnance and there is an overall attitude against them that people need to overcome. Many people decry ordnance as being "no good", but how many people have actually tried using ordnance? I've used them a lot and find them good options.

I'm pleased to see medium sized lists that are balanced do well. Good to have an ace and good to have generics. A well balanced list with a good player seems to be what you need to take to do well. I love that.

I ran talonbane with an engine uprade, hot shot blaster (which got used almost every game) and predator. He often got a lot of good shots, but his survivability after the alpha strike was low. Much of that was due to the number of brobot / tlts I ran into. Really wish it had one more thing, a barrel roll, a boost, an astromech, or a sensor slot... but then it'd probably be too good. So it goes.

Just because it isn't the meta you want, doesn't mean that it is a bad meta.

There is no such thing as a good meta. In gaming terms "a meta" (which I would define as a set of viable builds) that does not include every notable game component is indicative of balance issues. In this case there are still many ships that are simply not reliably viable at a higher level.

Does a meta imply a game is badly balanced? No

Does a meta imply a games balance could be better? Yes

So while the existence of a meta doesn't mean the game is in a bad way, the meta itself is still inherently bad.

Is there a meta now? Basically we have a handful of ships not appearing much in tourneys. The final four of worlds had all three factions represented. I suppose if anything we have an AT and TLT meta. But that may be oversimplifying things. It seems blocking and control are just as essential as consistent damage output and damage mitigation. Maybe lists will be less spammy and more varied as people seek more counters to turrets and try off the wall ideas.

Or everyone is gonna pair aces, TLTs, stress and cheap blockers.

Just because it isn't the meta you want, doesn't mean that it is a bad meta.

There is no such thing as a good meta. In gaming terms "a meta" (which I would define as a set of viable builds) that does not include every notable game component is indicative of balance issues. In this case there are still many ships that are simply not reliably viable at a higher level.

Does a meta imply a game is badly balanced? No

Does a meta imply a games balance could be better? Yes

So while the existence of a meta doesn't mean the game is in a bad way, the meta itself is still inherently bad.

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yeah, Xizor's ability is solid, but right now it is being bypassed by TLT frequently. While I don't think the TLT sky is falling, it is quite popular and completely wrecks Xizor's ability. If you plan on running him competitively you need to have a good plan to survive TLTs.

thrusters, done

TLTs are hilariously overblown in terms of their projected damage potential. The match between Nathan and the K-wings should have shown that quite easily; they are very prone to ficklereddice

Also, if the lack of greens is hindering the Viper with PTL, then we're faced with the larger problem of people trying to put PTL on the Viper

it's pointless, the ship has no evade action and can access much more viable EPTs to use with its beautiful dial (predator, VI, crackshot, lonewolf for guri etc.)

as for cost, your super Xizor is two points more than typical soontir and one point cheaper than typical Poe

I'd suggest people start practicing their Vipers, because now that Heaver has described the R3-a2, god of stress, Y-wing as "the best rebel ship" you're going to want someone that can deal with it. Guri and Xizor, between their abilities/epts/system slot etc. just plain don't give a **** compared to your typical ace de jour

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

What's good about Xizor is that he doesn't need to re position to be effective like Soontir Fel and others. As long as he has his meat shields nearby, it's OK. That's what makes Xizor good. Give him FCS and he's alright. I've used him with 5 Z's to good effect and think it's an effective list. You don't need PTL to be good.

If you think a 'super Xizor' is going to be an amazing piece when stressed i've got a bridge to sell you made of unmodified green dice with no repositioning ability.

Xizor can kinda get action efficiency but he can't do the double-reposition and keep a good PS level. His action efficiency's not enough given the Viper's only decent dial.

What's good about Xizor is that he doesn't need to re position to be effective like Soontir Fel and others. As long as he has his meat shields nearby, it's OK. That's what makes Xizor good. Give him FCS and he's alright. I've used him with 5 Z's to good effect and think it's an effective list. You don't need PTL to be good.

The problem with Xizor and his ability is that he is not dangerous enough.He is no threat at all. It is not a big deal not to shoot at him until all his friends around him are dead

I find Xizor is just there to mess with your opponent's target priorities. I saw it across the table at the last league night I went to - people really want to shoot Xizor, but it's usually a better idea to nuke all of his escorting Zs first.