Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

I think that TLT hurt the viability of ordnance. K-Wings and Y-Wings are both more likely to spend the points on TLT than they are ordnance and Punishers and Bombers get torn down too quickly to be worth the points. Also, ordnance seems like it is stronger against two ship lists which were in short supply in the Top 16.

...so, imagine that instead of TLTs, you were throwing cluster missiles--cluster missiles you paid four points for, and which did nothing despite having every reason to murder the bugger just because the dice said "**** you"

... I still got into a situation at a local tournie when the dice decided to never roll above a hit, modifiers be damned, and his green dice refused to roll blank. That was a game lost completely outside of my control, completely because of dice. No amount of blocking, re-rolls, focus amounted to anything, and because Redline's munition based he became useless before he died

So what you're saying is you need reliable ordnance, say something that can get around rolling blanks on attacks. Something that will do damage against the ficklest of green dice...

It sounds like you're looking for an Advanced Proton Torpedo.

OR Concussion missile, or Homing missile.

In HotAC, I'me flying a T70 with Proton Torpedos and Weapon Guidance, the torp auto focusing and the upgrade hitting with a blank.

I'm hoping the Guidance Chip in the TAP blister pack does something similar

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

I think that TLT hurt the viability of ordnance. K-Wings and Y-Wings are both more likely to spend the points on TLT than they are ordnance and Punishers and Bombers get torn down too quickly to be worth the points. Also, ordnance seems like it is stronger against two ship lists which were in short supply in the Top 16.

...so, imagine that instead of TLTs, you were throwing cluster missiles--cluster missiles you paid four points for, and which did nothing despite having every reason to murder the bugger just because the dice said "**** you"

... I still got into a situation at a local tournie when the dice decided to never roll above a hit, modifiers be damned, and his green dice refused to roll blank. That was a game lost completely outside of my control, completely because of dice. No amount of blocking, re-rolls, focus amounted to anything, and because Redline's munition based he became useless before he died

So what you're saying is you need reliable ordnance, say something that can get around rolling blanks on attacks. Something that will do damage against the ficklest of green dice...

It sounds like you're looking for an Advanced Proton Torpedo.

that's not reliable at all, though

you get dice reliability, and then lose it all on range inflexibility plus action requirement. All the effort you put into enabling the 3 blank --> focus --> hits might as well be put into far more flexible homing missiles, anyway

besides, mods aren't enough. Redline has mods, that's his whole reason for being. Problem is, if the dice bull their way past your mods, you're down an upgrade and your opponent is feeling fine

it's just a problem with having one-shot upgrades in general, either they work spectacularly or they fail hard. There's no infinite use to try and squeeze additional value out of them nor anyway to regenerate them like R2-d2 does shields

I do have to say, I am surprised by the Scimitar bomber with homings and seismics holding their own and defeating aggressors despite the continuation of utterly bull, unmodified green dice. I think that's a quantity thing, more rolls will substitute for mods quite well

I'm happy to see a healthy discussion about ordnance. We all want Proton Torpedoes to do some damage, but there are quite a few options for ordnance that are more nuanced than raw damage. What surprised me most was not seeing any of that stuff at Worlds (though admittedly I haven't looked hard for all the lists). Seems to me that a well-timed Advanced Homing Missile could have ruined some Curran's day. Flechette Torpedoes are also valuable, but with that beautiful R3-A2 combo you have to ask yourself if the Flechettes are very effective. They're definitely cheaper, though. I think I'll still play around with ordnance, but I've basically accepted that I'll never see them at top tables of big tournaments.

I'm happy to see a healthy discussion about ordnance. We all want Proton Torpedoes to do some damage, but there are quite a few options for ordnance that are more nuanced than raw damage. What surprised me most was not seeing any of that stuff at Worlds (though admittedly I haven't looked hard for all the lists). Seems to me that a well-timed Advanced Homing Missile could have ruined some Curran's day. Flechette Torpedoes are also valuable, but with that beautiful R3-A2 combo you have to ask yourself if the Flechettes are very effective. They're definitely cheaper, though. I think I'll still play around with ordnance, but I've basically accepted that I'll never see them at top tables of big tournaments.

3 red dice aren't a good bet against the ships that AHM are ideal against since it's usually a tokened 3 agility dice ship that likely has far better range control than the ship shooting the R2 only missile.

yeah, personally not a fan of advanced homers; far too situational

now regular homing missiles have those very nifty 4-dice, making scimitars basically HLC scyks that don't suck

Redline also works wonders with Plasma torps, but he doesn't modify heavily enough apparently Eagerly awaiting Jumpmaster deadeye + recon + r4 combo for fully modded better-than-HLCs that don't require TLs to shoot

What do you run on Redline, then? When I build lists with him I tend to give him Plasma Torps and Cluster Missiles. Should I go Flechette?

Looks like this most of the time when I am not in the mood for spamming Academy Piolts: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!143:36,136,126,14,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;49:126,-1,17,-1,24:-1:-1:;49:126,-1,17,-1,24:-1:-1:;10::-1:-1:

I'm happy to see a healthy discussion about ordnance. We all want Proton Torpedoes to do some damage, but there are quite a few options for ordnance that are more nuanced than raw damage. What surprised me most was not seeing any of that stuff at Worlds (though admittedly I haven't looked hard for all the lists). Seems to me that a well-timed Advanced Homing Missile could have ruined some Curran's day. Flechette Torpedoes are also valuable, but with that beautiful R3-A2 combo you have to ask yourself if the Flechettes are very effective. They're definitely cheaper, though. I think I'll still play around with ordnance, but I've basically accepted that I'll never see them at top tables of big tournaments.

3 red dice aren't a good bet against the ships that AHM are ideal against since it's usually a tokened 3 agility dice ship that likely has far better range control than the ship shooting the R2 only missile.

Flechettes are still a solid buy I think.

The APT comment was mostly kidding. But if you need extra range on your APTs, good sir, I have the pilot for you.

Yay, run a comicaly overpriced pilot to make overpriced torps work!

Flechette Torpedoes are also valuable, but with that beautiful R3-A2 combo you have to ask yourself if the Flechettes are very effective. They're definitely cheaper, though.

Stressbot and flechettes is even more beautiful 2 stress from a single attack, worth it for 2 points. Works wonders from VI Wes for a crippling anti-defensive combo.

You could also give that Wes Wired, to give him some defense. Depends on how important you think it is to go beyond PS9.

Agreed, though I think VI StressWes was pretty much a High PS phantom or Soontir counter-build. Wired would be a good choice too now that phantoms arent as dominant.

Agreed, though I think VI StressWes was pretty much a High PS phantom or Soontir counter-build. Wired would be a good choice too now that phantoms arent as dominant.

I think it's a cool build but if you know what you're doing a stressbot Y-wing can do it just as well with less action-dependency and the possibility of doing it more than once.

Most of the ordnance builds i've seen strike me, aside from some Redline shenanigans, as throwing good points at bad. If you're going to use your EPT to make ordnance work, you might as well take crackshot and be done with it.

Maybe i'm wrong but my experience with ordnance and seeing other people trying to make it work is that it's a thing people really really want to work rather than something that actually works.

Mostly agree, though Stresspedoes are probably the best of a bad lot. A 3 dice, range independent, stress causing attack, which doesnt stress you (unlike stressbot) and which needs only minimum action economy (a single target lock) to work. Plus its only 2 points and as a bonus combines nicely with stressbot. As has aleady been mentioned double stressing a Y Wing is ok, but not great, plus you are only really going to be able to do it once or twice. Whereas you can double stress your target with stresspedoes from StressWes for only one stress yourself, which is no big deal with the T-65 dial. Plus Wes strips a token from the defender too.

Somewhat situational, but on the StressWes build it gave you a pretty flexible ace that could cripple fragile, action reliant arc dodgers (Soontir and Phantoms). Also the PS10 option was a pretty important component.

Stresshog is great, dont get me wrong, I love the build and fly them a lot, but its a different beast. Its range limited in either ion or TLT variant and with a worse dial and lower in the PS chain. It is cheaper however and so point conscious lists cant really go wrong with it.

One could also run Horton Salm with the stressbot to keep some kind of dice modification. Not in 100 points, since that is a priority target if I have ever seen one, but this could become meta for epic rebels if such a thing is ever going to evolve.

I'm happy to see a healthy discussion about ordnance. We all want Proton Torpedoes to do some damage, but there are quite a few options for ordnance that are more nuanced than raw damage. What surprised me most was not seeing any of that stuff at Worlds (though admittedly I haven't looked hard for all the lists). Seems to me that a well-timed Advanced Homing Missile could have ruined some Curran's day. Flechette Torpedoes are also valuable, but with that beautiful R3-A2 combo you have to ask yourself if the Flechettes are very effective. They're definitely cheaper, though. I think I'll still play around with ordnance, but I've basically accepted that I'll never see them at top tables of big tournaments.

3 red dice aren't a good bet against the ships that AHM are ideal against since it's usually a tokened 3 agility dice ship that likely has far better range control than the ship shooting the R2 only missile.

Flechettes are still a solid buy I think.

The APT comment was mostly kidding. But if you need extra range on your APTs, good sir, I have the pilot for you.

I was talking about the Adv. Homing Missile, but it's true Rhymer could make it work:)

Yeah, you've all said basically what I was thinking. But the main reason for Adv. Homing Missiles isn't the crit, but the damage that bypasses shields on a ship that can regenerate. Seems good in theory. And my philosophy is that if I'm throwing three attack dice at three defense dice, I'm likely only going to get one damage through anyway.

Maybe it's better to just spam Proton Bombs...

Saw someone on this forums suggest Maarek Stele with Advanced Homing Missiles. I like that idea. Throw on Munitions failsafe and Deadeye or Adrenaline Rush and ATC. You have a decent Advanced pilot, and you have the option of going for that golden range 2 on Corran. *eyes go wild, breathing gets heavy*

Maybe Squad Leader on Vader to hand him off a focus for fully modded AHM shots?

Saw someone on this forums suggest Maarek Stele with Advanced Homing Missiles. I like that idea. Throw on Munitions failsafe and Deadeye or Adrenaline Rush and ATC. You have a decent Advanced pilot, and you have the option of going for that golden range 2 on Corran. *eyes go wild, breathing gets heavy*

Maybe Squad Leader on Vader to hand him off a focus for fully modded AHM shots?

You.... are so unconventional. I love it!

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yes you are right, I wanted to point out what you mentioned in your post. Xizors ability is not good when an independent high PS flanking ace is needed. Rest is true

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

I'm really curious about the Jumpmaster dial, but with Engine Upgrade, Push the Limit and Unhinged Astromech, he could potentially be the Scum Dash, but at PS9. A Large Base turret arc dodging at PS9 and potentially shooting twice, scary.

My impression: Scum (26% overall, 12.5% in Top 16) is still lacking a competitive maneuverable high PS ace to be equal. Concerning manueverability, although Starvipers were present at Worlds they cannot compete with high PS Interceptors, Poe and other high PS ships

Starviper:

- Lack of green turn maneuver is hindering high maneuverability with PTL

- Definitively missing one or two higher PS pilots (highest pilot with 31 points (Xizor) is just PS 7, and doesn´t have a good pilot ability)

- Too expensive to combine with a viable squad

You got that wrong. Xizors ability is one of the best in this game. It just doesn't work well if you want an independant flanking ace. I would love a PS8 Star Viper with a good ability that works on its own.

Dengar is going to be pretty strong with his PS9 PWT with in arc double tapping, PS9 Zuckuss might have potential.

Yeah, Xizor's ability is solid, but right now it is being bypassed by TLT frequently. While I don't think the TLT sky is falling, it is quite popular and completely wrecks Xizor's ability. If you plan on running him competitively you need to have a good plan to survive TLTs.

Actually, Xizor's ability isn't good in a TLT heavy meta.

Though the PS1 makes a fun blocker.

Xizors ship being good in a TLT met changes things. his ability also is usefull at range 1 in arc of Y-Wings, where he will end up often. TLTs have little impact on Xizors efficiency. You also don't face the full quad TLTs often.