Agreed. Named pilots are integral to Star Wars, generics are boring limited. A healthy balance, that we are now very close to, is where the game is at its best.

hmm.. beg to differ here.

seeing corrans, poes, soontirs etc !everywhere! does not leave a very "star wars-y" feel at all, imo. at home? sure. at a tournament with multiple of these? nope.

remember last year when everybody and his grandma was using a fat han?

I like the falcon model, Han is (besides vader and boba of course) my favourite character of the 3 real starwars movies - but last year this time I was eye-rolling, when every frikkin' round of a 5 or 6 round tournament I had to fight "han +3talas".. and so in the next.. and the next.. annoying/boring/notwhyIamplayingthisgame.

so - VIABLE generics, please. I want to see nameless hordes of interceptors and bombers, yt1300s and ewings (especially those.. in front of my interceptors )

give every ship at least 1 generic with an ept-slot, so we can invent our own heroes (not everybody can be vader, the gentle hand that brings order to the galaxy..), make the rank&file viable..

and at least I'm a happy camper

Excuse me, I made the mistake of assuming the person I was replying to knew what he was talking about when he said "PS4 Obs with crack shot" and mixed them up with black squadron pilots.

Calm down guy. Yes, Black Squadron for Crackshot, but PS3 Obs to outpace PS2 Bandits/TLTs/Golds/Blues/you name it.

What I'm saying is that its either 9, or cheap PS3/4s.

So that debunks any imagination that PS9/10 or bust.

PS bidding isn't quite there, yet, but I predict it becoming more important after this worlds, just because of the amazing stress bot.

How can it not already have been on everyone's radar? Everyone knew the ICT version was awesome, and this one trades 2 shots at range 1 for 2 shots at range 3, a vastly bigger area to avoid.

PS bidding isn't quite there, yet, but I predict it becoming more important after this worlds, just because of the amazing stress bot.

A Grey Squadron stressbot cant be PS bid on by any generic outside a phantom, RGP, or EPT Scyk. If you're PSbidding against that, you're in "pick a good pilot ability" territory anyways.

PS bidding isn't quite there, yet, but I predict it becoming more important after this worlds, just because of the amazing stress bot.

How can it not already have been on everyone's radar? Everyone knew the ICT version was awesome, and this one trades 2 shots at range 1 for 2 shots at range 3, a vastly bigger area to avoid.

Not sure, either, I already did run it when wave 7 was released and underestimated it because of my bad flying in that game, but when I thought about what could have gone right I had the feeling of being on to something interesting.

PS bidding isn't quite there, yet, but I predict it becoming more important after this worlds, just because of the amazing stress bot.

A Grey Squadron stressbot cant be PS bid on by any generic outside a phantom, RGP, or EPT Scyk. If you're PSbidding against that, you're in "pick a good pilot ability" territory anyways.

blacksun ace! (basically the scyk, but not ****)

State of the game? Aces and PS are good. Turrets are good. Stress mechanic is a viable list to run. Regeneration is something to look into e. Honestly most of the game is open and if you know how to fly a list and pick a target, you'll get far. I'm really interested to see what had little to no representation on the lists at worlds, see what people aren't running or thinking of. Look at what win and find something that can go toe to toe with many of the lists. Personally I think Boba, Guri and Tycho who perform well under stress could be nice to pull out now that people have had a taste of stress-hogs.

Oh, and munitions still don't excite anyone.

Ironic that the wave that was supposed to boost them instead just brought a new metapowered upgrade. Wave 7 was not wave of the munitions or even wave of the bomber. It clearly was wave of the turret.

emphasis on singular "turret" because that's all the winning list had

and then two lists with multiples

hardly an entire wave dedicated to one upgrade, now is it?

More or less but the irony is all the same. Wave 7 was the wave of TLT and not torpedoes.

I think this tells us that scum is still missing some pieces. They were 26% of the initial squads while only 12.5% of the top 16 and they seem to have the fewest viable builds.

Aces seem to be the dominant archetype although there are tons of options for escorts. Autothrusters are easily the most popular and arguably the strongest upgrade in the game with every list in the top four having at least one copy.

I think you're right, and I think they're missing the durable ace. They also don't have a budget Ace counter like Stressbot. Imperials get token-stacking, super-maneuverable, natively high PS pilots. Rebels get slightly less high PS, regenerating brawlers. Scum has Talonbane Cobra, who is neither super-maneuverable or a tank, and Xizor, who I think is pretty dang good, actually, but hasn't caught on all the way. Maybe it's because most aces like to flank, and Xizor doesn't really want to. He's got the tools otherwise. Good maneuverability, great damage mitigation, can get to PS9, with some nice flexibility in the Illicit and Systems slots.

The Ace counter in Scum is Torkil Mux. Takes what they want to do, ie. Shoot before you, and uses that against them. Makes them PS 0. Paired with Palob they can be a deadly ace combo for a several rounds. You just need to pair them with a good damage output pilot like Guri, Talonbane, or my favorite Kath Scarlet. It does have problems though against low ps swarms, Torkil's ability isn't much use against that squad.

I think this tells us that scum is still missing some pieces. They were 26% of the initial squads while only 12.5% of the top 16 and they seem to have the fewest viable builds.

Aces seem to be the dominant archetype although there are tons of options for escorts. Autothrusters are easily the most popular and arguably the strongest upgrade in the game with every list in the top four having at least one copy.

I think you're right, and I think they're missing the durable ace. They also don't have a budget Ace counter like Stressbot. Imperials get token-stacking, super-maneuverable, natively high PS pilots. Rebels get slightly less high PS, regenerating brawlers. Scum has Talonbane Cobra, who is neither super-maneuverable or a tank, and Xizor, who I think is pretty dang good, actually, but hasn't caught on all the way. Maybe it's because most aces like to flank, and Xizor doesn't really want to. He's got the tools otherwise. Good maneuverability, great damage mitigation, can get to PS9, with some nice flexibility in the Illicit and Systems slots.

The Ace counter in Scum is Torkil Mux. Takes what they want to do, ie. Shoot before you, and uses that against them. Makes them PS 0. Paired with Palob they can be a deadly ace combo for a several rounds. You just need to pair them with a good damage output pilot like Guri, Talonbane, or my favorite Kath Scarlet. It does have problems though against low ps swarms, Torkil's ability isn't much use against that squad.

Torkil Mux is bad against phantoms/decimators and annoying for most other imperial aces. Because his ability is restricted to the combat phase it really doesn't hurt the repositioning ability of most imperial small ships.

I found the diversity in the Worlds championship inspiring! The presence of so many ships has resparked my list building imagination for ships that I would have previously discounted. Now it's back to the drawing board

(Wished there were a few more Scums up there aside from IGs, but maybe wave 8 will fix that)

State of the game? Aces and PS are good. Turrets are good. Stress mechanic is a viable list to run. Regeneration is something to look into e. Honestly most of the game is open and if you know how to fly a list and pick a target, you'll get far. I'm really interested to see what had little to no representation on the lists at worlds, see what people aren't running or thinking of. Look at what win and find something that can go toe to toe with many of the lists. Personally I think Boba, Guri and Tycho who perform well under stress could be nice to pull out now that people have had a taste of stress-hogs.

Oh, and munitions still don't excite anyone.

Ironic that the wave that was supposed to boost them instead just brought a new metapowered upgrade. Wave 7 was not wave of the munitions or even wave of the bomber. It clearly was wave of the turret.

emphasis on singular "turret" because that's all the winning list had

and then two lists with multiples

hardly an entire wave dedicated to one upgrade, now is it?

More or less but the irony is all the same. Wave 7 was the wave of TLT and not torpedoes.

Absolutely. I broke down the top 16 earlier in a few ways earlier and I think there were 16 TLT cards in there? I'd guess that makes them both the most frequently seen upgrade card in the bunch (easily) and well and above dominating the "points spent" on upgrade cards. Heck, it appeared more than any single ship, including TIEs.

Edit: Now I'd like to go back to last year and see if see any card taken that much.

when every frikkin' round of a 5 or 6 round tournament I had to fight "han +3talas"..

That had everything to do with the Fat PWT meta, and little to nothing to do with named vs generics. Besides, 3/4th of those lists were in fact generics.

so - VIABLE generics, please.

I would like to see more viable generics though. Although this year's worlds once again showed the power of a well played generic. The prototype and Z-95 both were big parts of Paul and Nathan getting to the final round.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

And it's not just making ordnance cheaper that will do the trick. Even with extra munitions and pilot abilities made specifically with ordnance in mind, it's still not in a good spot. Maybe the solution is to give each ordnance card a free ordnance token (in addition to the ones that can be gained from EM). Being able to use it two or three times might put ordnance in a good spot.

On the other hand, the meta is wide open and there is finally an X Wing in the X Wing finals. The game's healthier than it ever was.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

And it's not just making ordnance cheaper that will do the trick. Even with extra munitions and pilot abilities made specifically with ordnance in mind, it's still not in a good spot. Maybe the solution is to give each ordnance card a free ordnance token (in addition to the ones that can be gained from EM). Being able to use it two or three times might put ordnance in a good spot.

On the other hand, the meta is wide open and there is finally an X Wing in the X Wing finals. The game's healthier than it ever was.

I think giving a free ordinance token would be broken. You'd have headhunters swarms with missiles they could fire twice and whatever they didn't kill on the first pass would likely die on the second.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

And it's not just making ordnance cheaper that will do the trick. Even with extra munitions and pilot abilities made specifically with ordnance in mind, it's still not in a good spot. Maybe the solution is to give each ordnance card a free ordnance token (in addition to the ones that can be gained from EM). Being able to use it two or three times might put ordnance in a good spot.

On the other hand, the meta is wide open and there is finally an X Wing in the X Wing finals. The game's healthier than it ever was.

I think giving a free ordinance token would be broken. You'd have headhunters swarms with missiles they could fire twice and whatever they didn't kill on the first pass would likely die on the second.

If you're looking for ways to encourage the PS bid above the baseline, this would definitely push you in that direction.

when every frikkin' round of a 5 or 6 round tournament I had to fight "han +3talas"..

That had everything to do with the Fat PWT meta, and little to nothing to do with named vs generics. Besides, 3/4th of those lists were in fact generics.

so - VIABLE generics, please.

I would like to see more viable generics though. Although this year's worlds once again showed the power of a well played generic. The prototype and Z-95 both were big parts of Paul and Nathan getting to the final round.

there is no "vs"; but there IS a meta, yeah. and last year it said "fly han solo. end of message".

doesn't make a difference on the table, but if we had a "generic ace", things might be different (even with the same stats etc, you could be flying captain jack sparrow, I would be flying howling mad murdock, etc - wouldn't be 930.786 Hans and gang), at least from a fluff point / that "oh, not again.. yawn"-moment.

concerning generics: exactly. the awing was useful (always was!), the Z95 was useful etc - I'd like to see useful yts, bombers, ewings etc, too. we all have the models, we just need a competative generics-card here and there*.

*and everyone who burns a corran horn card when flying against me with a generic ewing, may reroll all his dice while the card burns.

The Ace counter in Scum is Torkil Mux. Takes what they want to do, ie. Shoot before you, and uses that against them. Makes them PS 0. Paired with Palob they can be a deadly ace combo for a several rounds. You just need to pair them with a good damage output pilot like Guri, Talonbane, or my favorite Kath Scarlet. It does have problems though against low ps swarms, Torkil's ability isn't much use against that squad.

Torkil Mux is bad against phantoms/decimators and annoying for most other imperial aces. Because his ability is restricted to the combat phase it really doesn't hurt the repositioning ability of most imperial small ships.

I've take down all of the above with Torkil in the list. He can't do it himself he needs support, but he levels the playing field.

torkil is a great "equalizer". ever see an ace get down to PS0, only to be hammered by 5!blaster-turret-dice? or stripped clean by palob and then lit up by a horde of Z95?

priceless. and that's just two of many, many evil things out there. I sure do not discount him - or get unpleasantly reminded to not do that.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

I think that TLT hurt the viability of ordnance. K-Wings and Y-Wings are both more likely to spend the points on TLT than they are ordnance and Punishers and Bombers get torn down too quickly to be worth the points. Also, ordnance seems like it is stronger against two ship lists which were in short supply in the Top 16.

More like Extra Munitions was a fix for a different problem than effectiveness of ordnance.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

I think that TLT hurt the viability of ordnance. K-Wings and Y-Wings are both more likely to spend the points on TLT than they are ordnance and Punishers and Bombers get torn down too quickly to be worth the points. Also, ordnance seems like it is stronger against two ship lists which were in short supply in the Top 16.

Ordnance v TLT is not actually a thing, as the ships that can take TLT suck with ordnance (Except Proton Horton, but that bugger is way too expensive, and maybe Homing Miranda in the future)

for competitive play, well, take a look at the winners

we got Poe, with regen and dice fixing galore

we got Corran, with regen and dice fixing galore

we got R3-a2, god of stress, that don't give a **** about your dice

and we got TLT, the extra heaping of attack dice that really amp up the reliability of your ship

thing is, even with TLTs you can see how much bad dice can **** you (poor Ks )

so, imagine that instead of TLTs, you were throwing cluster missiles--cluster missiles you paid four points for, and which did nothing despite having every reason to murder the bugger just because the dice said "**** you"

that's why ordnance is not going to be used, no matter how good we perceive it to be (unless it starts one-shotting falcons, then maybe), in events that have to go on that long

Seriously, I've played Redline a lot by now. The dude is exceptionally legit, and routinely murders opposing Poes (cluster missiles v 2 agility = pain)

and yet, I still got into a situation at a local tournie when the dice decided to never roll above a hit, modifiers be damned, and his green dice refused to roll blank. That was a game lost completely outside of my control, completely because of dice. No amount of blocking, re-rolls, focus amounted to anything, and because Redline's munition based he became useless before he died

compare that to Poe or Corran, who can almost shrug off all damage they suffer if allowed unless suffering truly critical dice failure. Redline, on the other hand, deals with dice failure by becoming a 40 point tie fighter

so, whenever you think ordnance is not competitive, I don't want you to imagine that the cards themselves are bad or "ermagerdTLT!?!"; I want you all to think of seeing this at worlds:

and then seeing Poe not die, and his not dying stopping Redline from making the cut

wish some of this PS talk would walk over to my PSwar thread...

If they had not just released a new core I'd definitely be ok with rewriting the missle/torp rules from the ground up and releasing new runs of all the cards. When you have crackshot for 1pt effectively doing what most ordnance hopes to do (make 2red att an expendable 3+ red attack) it should start hitting home how bad they are...

I can't imagine a worse mat to play on than that one right there. If I got assigned to a table with that on it at a tournament I think I'd flip it over and just play on the backside.

Going through the top 16 lists I see one single use of ordnance. FFG just doesn´t seem to find a way to make ordnance competitively viable.

I think that TLT hurt the viability of ordnance. K-Wings and Y-Wings are both more likely to spend the points on TLT than they are ordnance and Punishers and Bombers get torn down too quickly to be worth the points. Also, ordnance seems like it is stronger against two ship lists which were in short supply in the Top 16.

...so, imagine that instead of TLTs, you were throwing cluster missiles--cluster missiles you paid four points for, and which did nothing despite having every reason to murder the bugger just because the dice said "**** you"

... I still got into a situation at a local tournie when the dice decided to never roll above a hit, modifiers be damned, and his green dice refused to roll blank. That was a game lost completely outside of my control, completely because of dice. No amount of blocking, re-rolls, focus amounted to anything, and because Redline's munition based he became useless before he died

So what you're saying is you need reliable ordnance, say something that can get around rolling blanks on attacks. Something that will do damage against the ficklest of green dice...

It sounds like you're looking for an Advanced Proton Torpedo.