I love the initial idea, but the whole "the rival has the crystal" undermines it. Why will they do the statue swapping and stuff if they can just steal the crystal and leave?

I guess it would be an instance of not wanting to poisoning their contact (or in this case, their grandfathers contact). People who don't follow through on their agreements tend not to have friends.

Yes, I can see that argument, but that won't necessarily be your players' reactions. But you know your party far better than I do, just thought I'd point it out as a possibility you had not considered that would undermine your cool scenario.

No, no - it's a fair point and one I should plan for just in case they decide to do something unexpected.

The plot is pretty strong, but if you will let me give a simple advice: dont overcomplicate things. And try to keep the "dicking with the PCs" to a minimim. Having them achieve a convoluted job only for them to not get what they were promised? Thats like playing keep-away. And players usually hate that.

Now, you can always add various plot twists that make the Broker somewhat.. Not "betray", but at least undermine the PC. One interesting way of doing it is " mission creeps" or withheld intelligence, the sort of thing the PCs would be angry at, but not sufficiently to break the arrangement.

Players like to get what they were promised, and while they love the curveballs, they despite feeling fiat-cheated. "Sorry, your reward is in another castle" is infuriating.

Now, what sort of Mission Creeps there could be?

- The statue is an ancient Jedi artifact that has huge sentimental value to the Jedi player

- The broker's plan to break the statue after the auction is prevented, and the players now have to be the ones to do it OR THE DEAL IS OFF

- the players discover a new work of art im the vault, something that would be important to them or to the broker (last missing piece of a set?), and they now have to decide (or be orderes to) steal it, which might endanger the mission as a whole now that there will be evidence of Breaking & Entering

Regarding missing intel (all stuff that the Broker KNOWS but decides not to share)

- the rival has Vorskns hounds for security, which start to smell out your Jedi player

- the rival hired the party's main rival as security, who would immediately ID them

- the rival hired a party's friend/ally for security/art assessment, and they would be humilated/discredited as well if the PC pull the heist

Hope it helps!

Simple workaround on the crystal end: while their boss was busy sending his people (the PCs) to mess with his rival, the rival was sending his person (the burglar) to mess with their boss. They get back, deliver the goods, and when he opens his vault to get the promised crystal, it's gone.

Later on, if you want to twist that plot, it could happen that the cat burglar had been turned, and was secretly working for him, stealing the gem to avoid his having to give it to the players.

- The statue is an ancient Jedi artifact that has huge sentimental value to the Jedi player

Oooh, I like that one. And of everything on the list you came up with, the eaiest the pull off and the biggest button to push. I have a bookworm and an archologist, so making it rare to the order would be quite the problem. You can have your gem, but you have to give up this awesome artifact to get it.

- the rival has Vorskns hounds for security, which- start to smell out your Jedi player

Heh heh heh. Brilliant!

They get back, deliver the goods, and when he opens his vault to get the promised crystal, it's gone.

Okay, yeah, this works the best. Make it so that A steals from B who is robbed by C (setting off a whole new problem). The PCs are just victims of poor timing.

Some ideas...

Make it not a lightsaber crystal, just one that looks like it is, only way to tell it's not is by installing it in a lightsaber and then have the lightsaber not work. However, the Jedi is picking up some odd things about it, like it's attuned to the Force. Have them discover it's some kind of old data-crystal with a map...

The Dealer's Rival has the Dealer's shop being watched, and is alerted to the presence of some fresh faces that have been spending some time there. Once they leave the Dealer's shop with the fake art, they are approached by the Rival's henchmen. The Henchmen offer credits in exchange for what they were doing there, tell them that the Dealer is reknown for promising things he can't deliver, and has a special affinity for finding out what potential victims want before making his offer. "Think back... whatever it was that he promised... did he mention it first, or did he get you to say what you were looking for and then mention he might have one?"

If the PCs are convinced that the Dealer has pulled one over on them and admits the plan to the Henchmen, the Henchmen surprise them. "Actually... carry on. But be very, very sure to deliver the original back to the Dealer. We'll handle it from there." (We'll handle it being that they call the Crime Boss handling that district).

- The statue is an ancient Jedi artifact that has huge sentimental value to the Jedi player

Oooh, I like that one. And of everything on the list you came up with, the eaiest the pull off and the biggest button to push. I have a bookworm and an archologist, so making it rare to the order would be quite the problem. You can have your gem, but you have to give up this awesome artifact to get it.

Word of advice (again), if they happen to go down the route of preserving the statue (and DO let them, if thats they want) have stuff matter regarsing that statue. Maybe its a special key to activate a Jedi Holocron in a lost Jedi Temple?

That sort of "bonus" makes your players feel smart and savvy for making the "right" choice. Even if it wasnt part of your original plan, its a way to prevent the players from having some sort of Loss aversion ("oh man, we got a useless statue in exchange for what could have been a sweet stat bonus to lightsaber!").

A strong GM rolls with his players choice to make them feel rewarded for good roleplaying. Its not about making the "right choice" in the end. Just use whatever string the players seem to latch on to

Actually the beautiful thing about my players, simply saving the incredibly rare and historically important statue would be just as big a reward to them as getting a sweet stat boost. But yeah, good point - I'll see if cant come up with a second place prize.

Interesting (yet accidental!) plot hooks are the best way to go at it

But yhea.. Not sure what your current Overaching Plot is, but doing some Archeological jedi tomb raiding is always fun. Especially if it fits your players' strenghts and interests.

Well, there's no real overlong story arc here - the player expressed an intrest in getting his Jedi a better lightsaber crystal, so that's what is in this weeks cards.

I was going to have the crystal be a long lost map, but if they opt for going with the statue over saber crystal, I might transfer the crystal's mappy-ness over to the statue somehow. Something that can only be accessed through the force? Hmmm - have to ponder.

I wouldnt go that way. But its me.. Allow your players to gather the puzzle' pieces to find the Lost Temple of the Jedi no need to make the clues themselves Force exclusive..

But you could make many riddles/keys for the Lost Temple only achievable by a certain level of Force Control...

I mean.. Idea out of nowhere: the riddle calls for "The Door will open when a minute be streched to an hour". And there are many hourglasses in the room. One measures a minute, other 10 minutes, other an hour, etc..

The key to open the door is for a Force Sensitive to slow down the flow of the 1-minute hourglass to a full hour, precisely. Its not only a riddle of wisdom, but of control of One's power.

As it went down. all this planning was completely unnecessary. When they went to The Dealer who gave them the proposal, they went "Nope, not playing these games!" - and then went to The Rival. When The Rival counter proposed his "Carry out the plan and we will take care of matters" they said "hell no" and walked away from the whole thing.

Fortunately I was able to salvage the thief stealing an important artifact by moving the whole encounter to the Jedi Temple on Courscant (we're playing in the KotOR era). They discovered the map when the Jedi rolled a despair examining the stolen statue and dropped it, shattering it (and freeing the crystal map inside).

But they get to investigate the lost temple - and I get a week to design the second half of the game! (and I do like the idea of stuff like the Hourglass 'riddle'. I might have to use that!)

Be my guest. If you need new interesting Hedi riddles, i am sure we can come up with more.

While its sad for your plot hooks, you gotta respect PCs who refuse to get entangled in political shennanigans. Either that. Or they saw you come a mile away with the "complication"

Now if you were really evil make the temple require the light saber crystal as a key to open it. Requiring them to go back to the contact again and well...

Now if you were really evil make the temple require the light saber crystal as a key to open it. Requiring them to go back to the contact again and well...

I perdonally believe this is a TERRIBLE idea. Your players have already expressed their non-desire of that sort of intrigue and shadowplay. Railroading them into accepting it would mean ignoring the sort of things you should always heed carefully.

Your big plot with the collection of crystal was good. But some players just wont have anything to do with it. Its a matter of preference.

Okay, I'm working on putting together the tomb to raid - and I was thinking, okay what about a large monster at the end of the dungeon crawl, a Guardian of the Treasure? Pretty standard D&D trope - but then what if I made the monster civilized and intelligent? It will beat ass as necessary (Mostly when attacked by adventures looking for the treasure and assume that the monster is hostile and attack), but it could be reasoned with - assuming some good role playing and creative talking.

Mind you, it's still the guardian of the treasure, so it's not predisposed to let it go, it may come down to a fight - but the option is there if they can work it.

As it went down. all this planning was completely unnecessary. When they went to The Dealer who gave them the proposal, they went "Nope, not playing these games!" - and then went to The Rival. When The Rival counter proposed his "Carry out the plan and we will take care of matters" they said "hell no" and walked away from the whole thing.

Sounds like the way my friend played Deus Ex.

Mission: Buy some drugs to trade for high explosives you need to give to another guy so he'll get you a the item you need.

His Solution: Kill eveyone. (Then use the explosives on the vault containing the item. Then take the drugs.)

Okay, I'm working on putting together the tomb to raid - and I was thinking, okay what about a large monster at the end of the dungeon crawl, a Guardian of the Treasure? Pretty standard D&D trope - but then what if I made the monster civilized and intelligent? It will beat ass as necessary (Mostly when attacked by adventures looking for the treasure and assume that the monster is hostile and attack), but it could be reasoned with - assuming some good role playing and creative talking.

Mind you, it's still the guardian of the treasure, so it's not predisposed to let it go, it may come down to a fight - but the option is there if they can work it.

Hum.. Ancient Jedi treasure, i presume. A Guardian, of some sort. Probably not some beast, since it could have passed away a long time ago.

All right. You have to explore your premisce a bit further. You need strong underlyings to your plot device if you want it to be anything more than "a dungeon for dungeon's sake".

First, why would the Jedi hide a treasure/relic? After all, the best protectors of powerful relics would be the current living Jedi Masters, not some forgotten tombs. Jedis are not known to bury their own history on purpose.

So either its a.. " lost" treasure, forgotten after an accident/Purge, or.. It was buried because its dangerous. Some sort of Dark Side relic, maybe? The temple is not so much as a repository as it is a vault meant to lock down the danger and keep it away.

Okay. In either case, you need some protection. We established that it cannot be a random beast if it has been a long term guardian. Nor can it be a living creature, period. It would have needed to feed itself or procreate..

I mean, except if its a Yoda-like creature and the tomb has been there for less than a thousand year.. But why would it have been?

No. You have to look at another possibility. A Force Ghost wouldn't do it, so i am thinking perhaps a Droid might be interesting. But Droids arent exactly "Jedi" in style.

I mean.. What do they know of the Force? They are beings living away from its touch and existence.. A Droid that the Jedi would entrust to guard a Lost Tomb would need to have a Jedi Mind...

Now.. Wait a minute. What if the Droid's core motivator was a Jedi Holocron, holding the Mental Image of the Great Jedi Weapon Master Whatshisface? Thus, he can communicate with the PCs, interact with them. His mastery of the Light saber is not Force-dependant (in fact, its pure skill-based). He can be the eternal vigilant guardian of the terrible treasure he was entrusted.. And his Droid nature makes sure he will not be corrupted by the Dark Side.

Now, you will need to establish the nature of the treasure yourself. But you need to ask yourself WHY its locked there, and why the Jedi Masters would feel its better to keep it locked up rather than out there doing good. Maybe they fear it would fall into the hands of the Sith? Your call.

Make the Droid Master completely immune to standard antidroid strategies: its Holocronic powersource and processor makes it immune to ion weapons. The frame is probably made of Cortosis.

Also, make sure the Droid cannot leave the Tomb. And if your players like that character (find a good name, and good characterisation), always give the.option of coming back to the Tomb to ask Counsel or lock down dangerous Sith Artifacts.

The Holocron Gatekeeper could be connected to the droid security system, but doesn’t necessarily have to have his holocron contained within a droid itself. In other words, kind of like the downloadable adventure from FFG entitled “Lure of the Lost”. But this holocron (or these holocrons) are still fully functional.

The power system could be derived from a secure source connected to the core of the planet, and that would power all the droids and other systems present. Which would explain why none of the droids can leave. For that matter, the holocron(s) could require the same unique power system, which is why it/they can’t leave, either.

The new adventure “Chronicles of the Gatekeeper” explains some more about how holocrons are constructed (in explaining how the chief MacGuffin of the book operates), and that might help tie the narrative down even further. And would certainly explain how the holocron(s) and the droid(s) could potentially interact with the Force and be aware of it, but without being able to be corrupted by the Dark Side.

First, why would the Jedi hide a treasure/relic? After all, the best protectors of powerful relics would be the current living Jedi Masters, not some forgotten tombs. Jedis are not known to bury their own history on purpose.

Did you miss the part about the big war and all of the Jedi being hunted down and killed? Pretty much from about 5 seconds after Order 66, the Jedi are in the business of hiding, and squirreling away any and all material capable of helping them perpetuate their own culture and legacy.

So either its a.. " lost" treasure, forgotten after an accident/Purge, or.. It was buried because its dangerous. Some sort of Dark Side relic, maybe? The temple is not so much as a repository as it is a vault meant to lock down the danger and keep it away.

I do like the idea of a vault/tomb to keep something away from the galaxy because it's dangerous, but you've in no way rules out a beneficial item or items.

We established that it cannot be a random beast if it has been a long term guardian. Nor can it be a living creature, period. It would have needed to feed itself or procreate..

What? Who established that? Not only is it possible to have an extremely long lived creature, but it's also possible that it lives off other creatures in the area, or hibernates until disturbed, or absorbs nutrients from the rocks, or is sustained by the Force...and there's absolutely no need to procreate (and in fact it might specifically be better if the thing did NOT procreate. Pretty much anything is possible along these lines.

No. You have to look at another possibility. A Force Ghost wouldn't do it,..

I completely disagree. Not only is a guardian creature a very plausible possibility, but there's even established stories where there are creatures guarding ancient ruins that are also populated by spirits...it seems very much in the Jedi style to have a force ghost serve as a keeper of secrets.

First of all, how about a bit more respect in your argumentation? Did offend you with my suggestions in any way?

Did you miss the part about the big war and all of the Jedi being hunted down and killed? Pretty much from about 5 seconds after Order 66, the Jedi are in the business of hiding, and squirreling away any and all material capable of helping them perpetuate their own culture and legacy.

Except i do not see how Jedis on the run would be able to gather sufficient ressources to build this place, its traps and its guardian. They would draw a lot of attention.

Which points to this tomb/repository being built at a time of prosperity for the Jedi. So your argument does not make a lot of sense.

I do like the idea of a vault/tomb to keep something away from the galaxy because it's dangerous, but you've in no way rules out a beneficial item or items.

Again. Why would Jedi, in a time of prosperity, bury their own past and relics? Unless, and this is key, this has been.. "Lost" to time. It wasnt meant to be buried, but was during one of the many purges.

What? Who established that?

Me. In the post your quotes.

Not only is it possible to have an extremely long lived creature, but it's also possible that it lives off other creatures in the area, or hibernates until disturbed, or absorbs nutrients from the rocks, or is sustained by the Force...and there's absolutely no need to procreate (and in fact it might specifically be better if the thing did NOT procreate. Pretty much anything is possible along these lines.

Sure, you may go towars these explanations, but i find them to be rather silly and far-fetched. Its like you would be trying to rationalize having a living beast in a sealed tomb, and yiu are desperate in justifying its existence.

Unless big pointers have already been made about a millenia-old creature that can feed off background rock radiation or the Force itself, it will be nothing short of an asspull meant to satisfy preconcieved notions of what should be at the end of a Dungeon.

I completely disagree. Not only is a guardian creature a very plausible possibility, but there's even established stories where there are creatures guarding ancient ruins that are also populated by spirits...it seems very much in the Jedi style to have a force ghost serve as a keeper of secrets.

Guardian creatures guarding ruins? I can see that in "lost" ruins, not sealed ones. Akin to the Tombs of Korriban.

But a sealed one? Nah. A living creaturw does not live in a vacuum. It needs some ecology.

Also, a Force Ghost would NOT serve as a guardian. FG are not location-specific, and anyone who would volunteer for such duty would basically damning themselves to an eternal vigil, not exactly the point of becoming One with the Force.

Plus, i do not think we have seen Force Ghost have any interaction with the material world beside communication. Hmm.. Maybe Luke in Legacy, but didnt he fought off another Ghost?

Keeping the soul of one of their own traped in eternal servitude is just so not Jedi, i wonder how you came with the idea. Ghosts serving as advisers to a new generation? Perhaps. But as guardians of relics? I just dont see it.

So you took the OPs premise, imagined up a bunch of other conditions and prerequisites on your own, then told the OP why their idea wouldn't work because of assumptions you made on your own.

In case you hadn't considered this: maybe the OP isn't limited by these supposed hard and fast decisions you're making without any indication that this is the case for the OP?

Except i do not see how Jedis on the run would be able to gather sufficient ressources to build this place, its traps and its guardian. They would draw a lot of attention.

Which points to this tomb/repository being built at a time of prosperity for the Jedi. So your argument does not make a lot of sense.

I don't see how you can make any argument at all against the Jedi having constructed some sort of edifice to protect their legacy or to confine a great evil. There's plenty of precedent already in place for that sort of thing. Look at the structure on Lothal, for example.

You're quick to rule out possibilities without any thought whatsoever, then tell people that their ideas don't work. Why not try to have an open mind and contribute constructively as opposed to just telling everyone they're wrong.

Again. Why would Jedi, in a time of prosperity, bury their own past and relics? Unless, and this is key, this has been.. "Lost" to time. It wasnt meant to be buried, but was during one of the many purges.

Ever heard of a library? Archives? This is a common practice of nearly any civilization ever. From the first cave paintings on.

Me. In the post your quotes.

Oh okay. So your rationale is, "You can't have a creature in a dungeon because I said so." Good to know.

Sure, you may go towars these explanations, but i find them to be rather silly and far-fetched. Its like you would be trying to rationalize having a living beast in a sealed tomb, and yiu are desperate in justifying its existence.

Unless big pointers have already been made about a millenia-old creature that can feed off background rock radiation or the Force itself, it will be nothing short of an asspull meant to satisfy preconcieved notions of what should be at the end of a Dungeon.

Yeah...because there's no way for large, intelligent, mythical beasts to live in dungeons and guard valuables...and this concept is totally foreign to all storytelling.

Who decided the thing is sealed? You. Once again telling everyone else that their ideas can't be done because you made different assumptions.

Guardian creatures guarding ruins? I can see that in "lost" ruins, not sealed ones. Akin to the Tombs of Korriban.

Bluntly, I don't care what you "can see". You're pretty clearly only willing to consider things that fit your very narrow view of what's acceptable, and further, you assume that I'm posting here to satisfy your requirements.

I'm not.

I'm trying to help OP come up with ideas and to brainstorm ways to make their ideas come to life in their game. If they want a dungeon with a wise and intelligent beastie at the end, I'm going to give them ideas to further that concept, not tell them that they can't do it because of reasons I pulled out of my butt and decided they were important.

A living creaturw does not live in a vacuum. It needs some ecology.

The space slugs may have something to say on that one...you know...creatures that live in vacuum and feed on asteroids...

But beyond that, the whole point of space fantasy is that things are possible that are not possible in everyday life. If OP wants a creature that is sustained by the Force, who are you to rule that this is impossible?

Also, a Force Ghost would NOT serve as a guardian. FG are not location-specific, and anyone who would volunteer for such duty would basically damning themselves to an eternal vigil, not exactly the point of becoming One with the Force.

A Force Ghose WOULD serve as a guardian. See? I can do it too.

Also, You're going to need to put up some credentials proving you're an authority on force ghosts. I don't believe you.