Does the Good/Best quality equipment system need to be expanded/revamped? To me the system feels a bit vague. Should it be more defined like the Pathfinder magic item system? What would you do to fix it? How do you deal with multiple best quality features? What about chaos tainted items(or when your gun starts talking back to you)?

I think the quality system is fine as is. Daemon weapons need their own system. Maybe we get them in Enemies Beyond or use the rules from earlier lines.

There are a number of cases where a 'Good' benefit is listed but a 'Best' benefit is unlisted. The actual difficulty spike to acquire Best isn't that much worse, so it's weird when I can only see one of those planned for.

One bit that is unclear to me is if quality modifies availability, or if the modifier applies afterwards. This is important to the subtlety game, since the availability penalty is a direct subtlety hit, while requisition modifiers like commerce successes don't necessarily affect that hit.

I think the quality system is just fine for the game - but what does need work are the descriptions for each item. Many are copy/pasted from DH1 and are thus almost a decade old, without updates to reflect the changes in system since then. Everything that can be modified by quality should have in their description what quality means for that item.

I'd make some changes. Currently if there is a ranged weapon that is reliable at regular quality then there is no advantage to making it good quality. I'd change it to there being levels of reliability:

0 - Weapon doesn't work.

1 - Jams on any miss

2 - Unreliable

3 - No special rules

4 - Reliable

5 - Doesn't jam/overheat by accident. Counts as two weapons for the purpose of Weapon Jinx.

6 - Never jams or overheats. Not even to outside forces intentionally trying to jam it.

Weapons start at the level corresponding to their traits. Bad quality drops them a level, good increases the level by one, best quality increases it by two from their starting position. This change will mean that increasing the quality of a weapon always makes it better.

I'd remove the text Force weapons count as Best craftsmanship Mono variants of the equivalent Low-Tech weapon. from force weapons and replace the text with Force weapons can not have the mono upgrade applied to them . Clears up a bit of confusion I have around the wording of them and makes weapon quality apply to them like any other melee weapon.

I have been using/toying with types of good and best qualities, Improved penetration, appearance (making items look better or worse, because a best quality armor stands out in the underhive, or normal weapons in the apex), submersible, pre-heresy, not what it appears to be (bolt gun that looks like a hand cannon, chain sword that looks like a sword), different damage type, are a few as well as some negative qualities, notorious, less damage/pen against certain things/xenos, distinctive, hated, looks like chaos but isn't. Can anyone think of more?

Flavorful descriptions is my favorite thing to do. It's cooler to get a serrated, curved dirk engraved with scenes of the Heretic Burning on Juno, with an elaborate family crest on the gold hilt and the horn of some rare xenos beast for a grip than it is to just get a Best Quality Knife.

Flavorful descriptions is my favorite thing to do. It's cooler to get a serrated, curved dirk engraved with scenes of the Heretic Burning on Juno, with an elaborate family crest on the gold hilt and the horn of some rare xenos beast for a grip than it is to just get a Best Quality Knife.

That's just it, though...whether it's a gilded, master-crafted, precision engineered on a Forge world plasteel blade or some feudal world blacksmiths magnum opus for his liege lord, mechanically speaking they're both just a Best Quality Knife. You don't need separate rules for every little thing; the quality of the piece is what actually makes a difference. You can fluff it however you like.

Flavorful descriptions is my favorite thing to do. It's cooler to get a serrated, curved dirk engraved with scenes of the Heretic Burning on Juno, with an elaborate family crest on the gold hilt and the horn of some rare xenos beast for a grip than it is to just get a Best Quality Knife.

That's just it, though...whether it's a gilded, master-crafted, precision engineered on a Forge world plasteel blade or some feudal world blacksmiths magnum opus for his liege lord, mechanically speaking they're both just a Best Quality Knife. You don't need separate rules for every little thing; the quality of the piece is what actually makes a difference. You can fluff it however you like.

Yes, but if you wanted a best quality knife that doesn't look like a best quality knife, that should be harder to find.

Flavorful descriptions is my favorite thing to do. It's cooler to get a serrated, curved dirk engraved with scenes of the Heretic Burning on Juno, with an elaborate family crest on the gold hilt and the horn of some rare xenos beast for a grip than it is to just get a Best Quality Knife.

That's just it, though...whether it's a gilded, master-crafted, precision engineered on a Forge world plasteel blade or some feudal world blacksmiths magnum opus for his liege lord, mechanically speaking they're both just a Best Quality Knife. You don't need separate rules for every little thing; the quality of the piece is what actually makes a difference. You can fluff it however you like.

Yes, but if you wanted a best quality knife that doesn't look like a best quality knife, that should be harder to find.

I think the idea of it being Best Quality means it is unique, so no two Best Quality knives are ever going to look alike. Considering it will be made of the highest skill and with whatever materials the builder/commissioner wanted, each is going to look pretty differently. That's why I fluff them, as it makes them seem much, much cooler than just Knife of +3. I've found that when I do this, my players get way more attached to the item than if it was just a normal knife that was sharper or something.

The point is, there isn't a uniform "Best Quality Knife" so it shouldn't be more difficult to find one that is hooked and has an obsidian grip than it would to be one carved from a xeno femur - assuming they are both of Best Quality, they will be mechanically identical.

The only caveat would be if a player wanted to get specific elements that would be hard to find. I would then make that an adventure in and of itself, which is probably how acquiring anything Best Quality should be handled anyways!

EDIT: If it wasn't clear, my original point about just describing the item is in agreement with what Jolly P is saying - the description is what makes the item unique and interesting, not the mechanical benefits.

So basically, "Best Quality" being artificer works-of-art? I like that concept.

Inspired by the Dragon Age P&P, perhaps such items could also affect the disposition of NPCs, making certain interaction Tests easier (or harder, when a fancy item betrays your poor-guy cover and people get suspicious). You could even come up with a set of "styles" that would impress different groups of people, depending on the appearance of an item.

For example, a boltgun with an engraved figure of Saint Sebastian might give you a +5 to Charm, Command and Inquiry when interacting with members of upper society ("oh, that gentleman/lady has style"), but the bonus rises to +10 when talking to members of the Ecclesiarchy ("ah, their devotion is inspiring"). On a flipside, having a poor and hungry hive ganger see this might actually give you a -10 penalty because you come off like an arrogant fop.

I'm not sure Best Quality should necessarily mean unique. Personally I take my cue from the book; Best Quality is -30 to the Requisition test. That means that if it's Very Rare or higher on the availability table, yeah, those items are of such quality/rarity anyway that a Best Quality version is actually Unique. A Rare or lower availability, however is only pushed up to Near Unique or below and there should be proportionately more of them around. A Knife or Stub Gun, for example (base Availability: Plentiful) only becomes Scarce; about as common as a Sniper Rifle. It is, after all, easier to perfect something that's so far from perfection. A Bolt Pistol, on the other hand, is already a finely tuned machine of death; how do you possibly improve upon it? Have it blessed by a saint? House a Relic in the grip? Quench the metal in the tears of the Sisters of Battle? Paint it red...oh no, wait; that only works for Orks!

None of this is to say that more common Best quality items like knives can't be Unique; of course they can be. Those are the sort of items that might have the social implications Lynata suggests, but as weapons, they'd still just enjoy the appropriate Best Quality benefits.

Don't forget also that there are a whole bunch of weapon and armour mods available to further modify your gear; isn't that enough without messing around with the quality rules?

Personally I take my cue from the book; Best Quality is -30 to the Requisition test. That means that if it's Very Rare or higher on the availability table, yeah, those items are of such quality/rarity anyway that a Best Quality version is actually Unique. A Rare or lower availability, however is only pushed up to Near Unique or below and there should be proportionately more of them around.

A good point. I'm sure this wasn't actually intended by the game designers, but I feel it adds up nicely. Though it would have made for an easy-to-memorise rule if Good Quality was always the best you could mass-produce, and Best Quality are handcrafted masterworks. But hey, even handcrafted doesn't have to mean "only one in the galaxy" -- very few things that have been made once are impossible to have been made twice.

I'm not sure Best Quality should necessarily mean unique. Personally I take my cue from the book; Best Quality is -30 to the Requisition test. That means that if it's Very Rare or higher on the availability table, yeah, those items are of such quality/rarity anyway that a Best Quality version is actually Unique. A Rare or lower availability, however is only pushed up to Near Unique or below and there should be proportionately more of them around. A Knife or Stub Gun, for example (base Availability: Plentiful) only becomes Scarce; about as common as a Sniper Rifle. It is, after all, easier to perfect something that's so far from perfection. A Bolt Pistol, on the other hand, is already a finely tuned machine of death; how do you possibly improve upon it? Have it blessed by a saint? House a Relic in the grip? Quench the metal in the tears of the Sisters of Battle? Paint it red...oh no, wait; that only works for Orks!

None of this is to say that more common Best quality items like knives can't be Unique; of course they can be. Those are the sort of items that might have the social implications Lynata suggests, but as weapons, they'd still just enjoy the appropriate Best Quality benefits.

Don't forget also that there are a whole bunch of weapon and armour mods available to further modify your gear; isn't that enough without messing around with the quality rules?

I don't see that necessarily being an issue with the way I see Best Quality. I mean, knives are pretty easy to make, lots of people know how to make them, and they don't take a whole lot to make. So a wonderful example of craftsmanship with the highest materials will be much more rare than a regular knife - but not nearly as hard to acquire as a Best Quality bolt pistol. That pistol (while still of the absolute best make that is possible, with all sorts of decorations) requires technical knowledge of a fairly rare weapon, so examples like that are going to be few and far between.

Do you see what I am saying? I guess it would be the difference between a really, really, well-made knife today versus a handmade, handheld gyrojet pistol. While both will be of the same quality, there are more people that know how to make knives than there are that can handcraft a rare, not well-understood gyrojet pistol.

I don't think one bit that Best Quality anything should have special qualities or rules attached - the social implications don't have to be mechanical, after all. It is better to come up with a detailed description of the item rather than just leave it at "Oh this is like your regular knife, but, like, better."

I mean, knives are pretty easy to make, lots of people know how to make them, and they don't take a whole lot to make. So a wonderful example of craftsmanship with the highest materials will be much more rare than a regular knife - but not nearly as hard to acquire as a Best Quality bolt pistol.

To be fair, that is exactly what he was saying.

Normal Knife: Plentiful -> Best Quality Knife: Scarce

Normal Bolt Pistol: Very Rare -> Best Quality Bolt Pistol: Unique

I mean, knives are pretty easy to make, lots of people know how to make them, and they don't take a whole lot to make. So a wonderful example of craftsmanship with the highest materials will be much more rare than a regular knife - but not nearly as hard to acquire as a Best Quality bolt pistol.

To be fair, that is exactly what he was saying.

Normal Knife: Plentiful -> Best Quality Knife: Scarce

Normal Bolt Pistol: Very Rare -> Best Quality Bolt Pistol: Unique

I realized that just now when I reread his post

I mean, knives are pretty easy to make, lots of people know how to make them, and they don't take a whole lot to make. So a wonderful example of craftsmanship with the highest materials will be much more rare than a regular knife - but not nearly as hard to acquire as a Best Quality bolt pistol.

To be fair, that is exactly what he was saying.

Normal Knife: Plentiful -> Best Quality Knife: Scarce

Normal Bolt Pistol: Very Rare -> Best Quality Bolt Pistol: Unique

Yes, but what if you want a best quality knife, that has holy and pre-heresy? Just add another -30 to every additional quality?

Yes, but what if you want a best quality knife, that has holy and pre-heresy? Just add another -30 to every additional quality?

Is it being Holy and Pre-heresy going to affect the quality (i.e. it's basic combat function; e.g. damage or WS bonus) of an already Best knife? If not, you're just talking about some of the fluff that makes it "Best". If it's going to have some additional effect, like being more effective against Daemons, then it's a weapon mod and should be acquired as such.

Yes, but what if you want a best quality knife, that has holy and pre-heresy? Just add another -30 to every additional quality?

Is it being Holy and Pre-heresy going to affect the quality (i.e. it's basic combat function; e.g. damage or WS bonus) of an already Best knife? If not, you're just talking about some of the fluff that makes it "Best". If it's going to have some additional effect, like being more effective against Daemons, then it's a weapon mod and should be acquired as such.

Holy makes it work against deamons, pre-heresy is something I have been playing with +1 damage, tougher than a normal weapon, and +5 to hit.

Yes, but what if you want a best quality knife, that has holy and pre-heresy? Just add another -30 to every additional quality?

Is it being Holy and Pre-heresy going to affect the quality (i.e. it's basic combat function; e.g. damage or WS bonus) of an already Best knife? If not, you're just talking about some of the fluff that makes it "Best". If it's going to have some additional effect, like being more effective against Daemons, then it's a weapon mod and should be acquired as such.

Holy makes it work against deamons, pre-heresy is something I have been playing with +1 damage, tougher than a normal weapon, and +5 to hit.

Well there is already the Sanctified weapon quality with procedures to obtain, so no need to reinvent the wheel.

As for a Pre-Heresy weapon, something that rare and valuable shouldn't be a simple Requisition test - this is an item that was around during the time of the Emperor, after all. It is most likely a priceless relic and should be treated as such. A session or three would be entirely justified to track down and acquire such a weapon. Keep in mind there aren't whole crates of these things laying around, so I wouldn't restrict myself to adding +1 damage or whatever - this is a unique relic, so make it whatever you want.

But such a knife would be the exception, rather than the rule. I'm talking about Best Quality Knives, which are mechanically just knives with the +1 Damage, +10 WS bonuses that Best Quality gives. They don't need extra rules or more buffs to stand out - how you describe them should do that.

Holy makes it work against deamons, pre-heresy is something I have been playing with +1 damage, tougher than a normal weapon, and +5 to hit.

So Pre-Heresy is just the fluff for why it's Best quality.

If you want it to be "tough", just apply the Reinforced Weapon Mod.

Holy can easily be a Weapon Mod (isn't there something in Enemies Within along those lines? I'm AFB, so can't check right now).

No need to involve the Quality rules here; there's already a rule system in place for what you seem to be looking for, which is extra Weapon Mods.

Just bear in mind that any Mods you make up that involve static damage or WS bonuses for melee weapons or the reliability of ranged weapons are already covered by the base weapons Quality and that whatever "cool" upgrade you're thinking of is just fluff for that Quality.

Also bear in mind that there's only so much you can do to a weapon before it's not that weapon anymore. For example; If you take a Stub Automatic, give it a mod that increases its damage by +2, changes its damage type to X and grants it the Tearing quality...what you've got there is a prototype Bolt Pistol, so why bother with all the fart-arsing around with weapon mods when you can just get a bolt pistol and fluff it up as a prototype?

So Pre-Heresy is just the fluff for why it's Best quality.

That's how I'd interpret it as well. Pre-Heresy stuff usually wasn't better , it was just more reliable . See the evolution of Space Marine armour, for example.

If you want the real crazy stuff, that's archaeotech relics from the Dark Age of Technology. Some of them have been incorporated into Pre-Heresy Imperial gear (the Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Armour of St. Katherine, etc), but to call it Pre-Heresy gives off the false impression that (a) all its components stem from this era and that (b) the Imperium was at one time able to mass-produce these items.

No, I was thinking Pre-Heresy would be like an addition to the quality, Best quality is (I think) +1 to damage plus 10 to hit. Just add pre heresy on top of that (best quality pre heresy knife). So you could have a normal quality weapon that is pre heresy too. I do like the idea of making it also reliable, which would make sense. A lot of this is about giving a set flavor to an item, and broadening the types of "treasure" I can hand out. If I can hand out a xeno tech modified good quality bolt pistol instead of just good or best then I have added not just a positive quality to it but a negative one as well. Which gives more story telling opportunities, and slightly lowers/changes the value of the item from mere good or best.

No, I was thinking Pre-Heresy would be like an addition to the quality, Best quality is (I think) +1 to damage plus 10 to hit. Just add pre heresy on top of that (best quality pre heresy knife). So you could have a normal quality weapon that is pre heresy too. I do like the idea of making it also reliable, which would make sense. A lot of this is about giving a set flavor to an item, and broadening the types of "treasure" I can hand out. If I can hand out a xeno tech modified good quality bolt pistol instead of just good or best then I have added not just a positive quality to it but a negative one as well. Which gives more story telling opportunities, and slightly lowers/changes the value of the item from mere good or best.

What you're talking about is Weapon Mods. Take a look at page 162 to 166 of the Core DH2 Rulebook. There's plenty of existing options available and more coming out with every new release. Feel free to make up your own mods, but just use and add to the existing system instead of trying to modify it. It's a lot easier.