Point Defense is pointless (Heh) on Warlord because H9 does the same thing but better (guaranteed) and works against ships

Wow ... I missed the fact that H9 also work against squadrons ...

So H9 + Warlord is a 100% hit against squadrons...

Well then ... Point Defence is really useless ...

Correct, H9+Warlord is a 100% hit against squadrons. It's also the only circumstance under which I might consider Quad Laser Turrets, as the Counter 1 would also be a 100% hit against squadrons.

Tarkin likes his liasons.

The primary advantage of cluster bombs is that it doesn't count as an attack. This means the target doesn't get to use defence tokens against it. Keep that in mind.

Do you think there is any chance FFG will errata certain cards? It seems unlikely, but would it be so wrong for them to go: "Well we playtested these and thought they were balanced with the others, but having seen them in action and received significant feedback from the community we can now see that we ****** them up a bit".

I don't think erratas are likely. I'd be happy for them, mind you, but I think it's unlikely.

I feel a lot of them could be fixed with a points tweak. H9s for example are a great idea, and become particularly good in certain combos. Who the hell thought they were worth more than XI-7s though?

H9s are decent but only in very specific circumstances, as you mentioned. They have great synergy with Warlord, for example. They're also worth considering on a ship that has a number of red+black dice where you want to get accuracy results regularly to lock down braces. I feel like the red+black ship with a turbolaser slot is going to prefer Heavy Turbolaser Turrets once those are available, though. I'd happily support an H9 discount, but I don't expect FFG to do that nor am I sure how exactly they'd do that. Print new cards? How would players get them?

A lot of people have made the valid point that some cards are bad due to the slot they compete for. I can see the concern, but this doesn't bother me so much. As long as there are times that you aren't using the slot for the more commonly useful card (and I don't think there is a single card I use every time!) and the card is by itself useful and fairly costed, I don't see a problem.

And I would agree overall. You do need to take the slot competition into account. Some cards are just going to be rarely used (like the H9s, as we've been discussing lately) but so long as they get used at least sometime it's all right. If it's never going to get used due to strong competition for its slot, then perhaps it should have been assigned to a different slot (Cluster Bombs, for example, might have been worth considering in very specific circumstances as an Offensive retrofit rather than a Defensive retrofit).

The real bummer is effects that are too naff to bother with. I agree that the liasons are ****, and straightforwardly replaced by the new 6 point officers. Having to spend a token is just too much. You are already sinking points into something that is essentially there to rectify your mistakes.

I think Liasons have their place in Tarkin fleets, where the quantity of tokens created allows them to be more flexible than their 6-point super-specialized comrades. You can argue that Liasons and order-specialist officers don't have their place if you play perfectly (you haven't but others have) and I disagree with that idea entirely. Even good players make mistakes. New players make a lot more mistakes. Sometimes an unexpected event happened (not really a "mistake" per se, but moreso "and then the dice went crazy, surprising everyone") and being able to react to it can be beneficial. It may get less useful the more skilled you are in the game, but I wouldn't describe any of those officers as "useless."

It is also very upsetting that so many (if not all) of the anti-squadron cards are so meh, as they have missed the opportunity to add a whole new dimension of tactics to the game, with drastically different ways for ships to take on squadrons.

I completely agree. As I was saying earlier for the Point Defense Reroute, simply being able to reroll your anti squadron attacks would have been a solid card worth considering. I'm also surprised we don't get access to something like Enhanced Armaments but that only buffs the anti-squadron dice (say +1 blue anti-squadron dice, or convert your anti-squadron dice into red dice, or when attacking squadrons add one dice of any color already present in the attack pool, or whatever).

The anti-squadron upgrades have a number of problems working against them as they're currently designed. To mind...

1. They obviously do nothing if your opponent brought no squadrons at all, which you have no control over. Squadronless fleets will likely become rare by wave 2, but it's still possible.
2. They all have very specific requirements that are usually pretty dependent on your opponent. For example, Quad Laser Turrets and Cluster Bombs only work if your opponent is actually attacking the ship with the upgrade. Point Defense Reroute only works on squadrons at close range. Your opponent has a fair amount of choice in whether he wants you to be able to use those upgrades.

Better-designed upgrades that work against squadrons (which is different from specifically anti-squadron upgrades) are things like putting Ordnance Experts on the Raider-I. It helps you mess up ships but it's also effective at increasing damage against squadrons, and for a reasonable price with a very straightforward effect.

I don't recall who said this before, but it was essentially:

Some cards are deliberately bad, or very situational. This is to allow people to feel like they are learning (point defence sucks) or fall in love with a specific combination (Warlord + H9).

So yes, some upgrade cards suck. But this is intentional.

E.g slaved turrets is a very crappy card, except for special circumstances.

In overall, the upgrade cards are very well designed.

Indeed

Make anything TOO good and you might as well just shrolp it into a ship's base cost

They're more likely to release a new card with a similar but better effect for a similar cost

New post because editing on phone sucks.

You typically only see "fixes" if the sales of the model are impacted. And it is done by the addition of new cards, not by correcting the old ones. None of the upgrade cards are so over powered or ships so overpriced (at this point) that FFG needs to fix them.

Look at the fixes from xwing:

Point reduction card for Awing, new title for Ywing, +1 damage for tie advanced, TLT to nerf Fat Han / help HWK, +1 damage reduction for arc dodgers, extra ammo for munitions (primarily bomber fix I think), some card for the Xwing in the new starter.

So, at best you are likely to see new titles(either named OR generic) come out for old ships, IF the sales are impacted. (E.g new player not buying the model, because this other sexy one can do everything better). FYI this is also why you see upgrade card limits to specific ships... To get you to buy the ship for the upgrade.

Say for example the Nebulon B. XI7s needed to beat Advanced Projectors with the introduction of HTTs, otherwise there is no "pull" card in the box.

Liaisons are not just for inexperienced players. Sure an experienced player can accurately predict needed commands vs a newer player, but once the opposition starts changing speeds to jockey for position for engagement timing. Suddenly your perfect sequence is off by one turn, which can totally mess things up. Or, the player just spams navigation and/or engineering which is NOT perfect play. Instead, by using a liaison you can get a preferred command every turn (assuming Tarkin or the like). Now if you end up using the Liaison EVERY turn that's not efficient either. Instead you aim for a happy medium of an ideal command setup where you can take more risk with a command knowing you have a backup. I prefer the defensive liaison which gives you access to navigate OR engineering. Generally run these on VSDs which are either squadron or laser oriented. Just queue up the appropriate offense knowing you can react to movement or damage on a dime.

Tarkin is VERY under appreciated. The ability to have your entire force speed up or down at a moments notice is huge for timing the initial engagement. Then the ability to provide critical engineering tokens is likewise huge. Even the CF token is often just as good as the dial if you're throwing enough dice (lots of dice meaning at least one blank is likely).

Liaisons are not just for inexperienced players. Sure an experienced player can accurately predict needed commands vs a newer player, but once the opposition starts changing speeds to jockey for position for engagement timing. Suddenly your perfect sequence is off by one turn, which can totally mess things up. Or, the player just spams navigation and/or engineering which is NOT perfect play. Instead, by using a liaison you can get a preferred command every turn (assuming Tarkin or the like). Now if you end up using the Liaison EVERY turn that's not efficient either. Instead you aim for a happy medium of an ideal command setup where you can take more risk with a command knowing you have a backup. I prefer the defensive liaison which gives you access to navigate OR engineering. Generally run these on VSDs which are either squadron or laser oriented. Just queue up the appropriate offense knowing you can react to movement or damage on a dime.

Tarkin is VERY under appreciated. The ability to have your entire force speed up or down at a moments notice is huge for timing the initial engagement. Then the ability to provide critical engineering tokens is likewise huge. Even the CF token is often just as good as the dial if you're throwing enough dice (lots of dice meaning at least one blank is likely).

Good analysis, though spamming navigate isnt necessarily poor play. Especially given how little cf tends to offer or if your low squadrons (or all rogue)

I dont think tarkin is underappreciated though. For what amounts to 6 very confused veteran captains, he's rather expensive. Often your early round tokens arn't that useful, and you don't have selective burst like garms tokens. If it wasn't pick fleet wide but per ship like garms, he'd be alot easier sell for his rather silly cost

Turbo Laser reroute circuit= worst card ever

Rebels PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never run this

(I'm not kidding I swear:P)

Turbo Laser reroute circuit= worst card ever

Rebels PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never run this

(I'm not kidding I swear:P)

Toasted you good eh?

Turbo Laser reroute circuit= worst card ever

Rebels PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never run this

(I'm not kidding I swear:P)

Toasted you good eh?

Indeed

Make anything TOO good and you might as well just shrolp it into a ship's base cost

*cough* Demolisher*cough*

Turbo Laser reroute circuit= worst card ever

Rebels PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE never run this

(I'm not kidding I swear:P)

Toasted you good eh?

let's just say jainas light may or may not have averaged more damage per turn then my VSD...

RIGHT! Add in Projection Experts and that thing is a sniping healing machine! Then again I think just having it roll around the board with Akbar trolling people with 3-4 red dice per turn. . . mmmm delicious. . .

Indeed

Make anything TOO good and you might as well just shrolp it into a ship's base cost

*cough* Demolisher*cough*

Yavaris too

the difference there, however, is that both are unique and the base ships are good enough to run alongside their Miss bigshot

Wait H9s suck? I love H9s! They take a die, but they punish anyone who didn't take ECMs. It's a reliable way to keep getting accuracy on all your shots, and I like targeting Brace.

Yeah H9s are good, though I do maintain they are overpriced.

I do often wish things could be a bit more fluid. FFG absolutely do a great job of balancing things generally, but a way of updating things constantly would be ideal. Take MMORPG's for example. Games like WoW (iirc - long time since I played one) rebalance the abilities of different factions and classes with each patch. While I love the tactile aspect of board games, perhaps games like ours should embrace technology a bit more. A suggestion might be using Apps over cards (I don't claim this is without drawbacks itself, merely that it would be one possible way to address this).

An electronic requirement to a miniatures game would immediately count me out. They're two conflicting situations for me.

I mean, a Board Game is fine, because most of the time, I'm organising a Board Game time, and I can plan things out so there's something nearby...


But mandating something electronic would kill my interest. I barely afford the game itself these days.

Updating constantly, from a designer point of view, removes the impetus to properly playtest in the first place. I fully prefer a more robust playtest system, in house and out, before things come to a head. Things will always be off after a while, but constant updates just makes the designer lazy. "Eh, we can fix it in post."

I guess overall, I'm just Old School. I want to keep my Electronics away from my Painted Wardollies.

Indeed

Make anything TOO good and you might as well just shrolp it into a ship's base cost

*cough* Demolisher*cough*

Yavaris too

the difference there, however, is that both are unique and the base ships are good enough to run alongside their Miss bigshot

I dunno about this Fickle. I love Yavaris. Love it. So hard. But if I'm only running one Neb-B, I may or may not take Yavaris, based on my fleet composition.

If I'm running a Glad, I am ALWAYS taking Demolisher. Every. Single. Time.

My least favorite is the one you spend 4-8 points on your ship and then never use it in the round.

:-/

Hmmmmm... no point defense reroute love after the world final round yesterday? I was expecting some patented forum knee-jerk retractions here! C'mon ppl!

It's so bad even the knee jerk responses can't save it

On a more serious note, I'm not sure I'd put Quad Laser Turrets on my no-fly list. I agree there are ships where they're not particularly useful (probably on a Glad, though after yesterday I'm reconsidering; since counter uses blue dice, I'm also not as high on them on the Raider as I was when I thought you could counter 1 with a black die). QLTs are a guaranteed hit against squadrons on a Warlord with H-9s (albeit, also a significant investment), each time you get shot at. Against a TIE swarm, that's incredible. Against an A-wing swarm it's passable. Against a Rhymer Ball it's... uh, nothing. So yeah... it's not the answer to squadron-heavy lists, but it's a start! (Well, against most of them). Take a Vic I carrier Warlord with Gunnery Teams, H-9s and Quads (73 + 7 + 8 + 8 + 5 = 101) with four TIEs (32), and that's fairly credible anti-squadron cornerstone (plus a Vic), with 2/3 of your fleet points available to season to taste.

Of course, it means not taking boosted comms or hanger bays, so there's an opportunity cost to consider. If you have it on an ISD I and wanted to deter squadrons from rushing you, you could conceivably have Quads + comms/hangers.

Or, if you really wanted to mix things up, you could add point defense reroute to reroll crits on your blue dice for each QL counter or anti-squadron battery. With black-blue anti-squadron + PDR on an ISD I, that's a pretty decent chance at 2 hits each round (75% on the black, 50% + 25% chance at another 50% on the blue) and three if a squadron shoots you. It won't vaporize anything but TIEs in a single round, but since many squadrons top out at one damage per round against ships, most bombers top out at two damage per round against ships, and only Keyan can exceed 3 damage max per round, 66-75% odds at getting 2-3 damage on each squadron that nears/attacks you, each time it nears/attacks you, seems like a pretty good damage exchange (and, in the alternative, the realistic threat of 2-3 damage per squadron seems like a pretty good deterrent to squadrons swarming your point sink ships). At just 10 points, that seems like a decent price point for me. Add your own defensive TIE screen to the mix (4 cheap TIEs at 32 points, to take advantage of the ISD I's innate squadron value of 4), and that's going to be a tough (and painful) nut to crack, even for B's and sillies/scurggs/synonyms. I definitely like my chances against an A swarm that costs twice as much (88 points for 8 A-wings). Even if the TIE screen never shoots at the A's, the ISD has a pretty good chance at whittling the group down to 1-2 health by the time the TIE screen gives out, a good chance at seriously damaging any A that does get a shot in on the ISD, and a good chance at wiping any part of the swarm that sticks around at distance 1 for another round. A single-purposed B-cloud (or 6-health sillies/firesprays) will probably still win the war of attrition in the end, but that's still not a bad return on investment for 42 points (QL + PDR + 4 TIEs), in my opinion.

Just a thought. Not saying it's the answer, just that QLTs (and PDRs, I guess) might have some unexplored potential. Since apparently we live in a "squadron-heavy meta" now.