Sorry if this has been discussed before, but my searching of the forum didn't return the results I was looking for.

I'm running my first game next week and had a question regarding using the Force. I may have just missed it, but I couldn't see why a character couldn't keep attempting to roll a light side result for a test. For example, a character needs to reach something (out of their reach), and attempts to use the Move Force power. The first roll results in a dark side point. Couldn't the player attempt again (and again) until they get a light side result?

Potentially yes, there is no rule I know of stopping it. However that said there are other ways to make such things more interesting or limited.

-Give out strain for failed attempts. You can refuse to tap into the dark side but it takes a toll on your body to try and fail.

-Time may be limited, if security is on the way to stop the party they may not have time to spend reattempting the check over and over. The longer they mess around the more guards show up to stop them.

Get creative with the consequences of just retrying the check.

Luke in the wampa cave.

"Roll a move check to pull your lightsaber from the snow."

"Nope, 1 dark."

"The Wampa hears your awake, looks up from his current meal. Roll again?"

"Two dark, dammit."

"Well, the wanpa gets ready to take a bite out of you. Roll init.

"That I can do, 3 successes. And... DAMMIT! 1 dark again."

"Flip a destiny?"

"Dammit... fine, I take the point of conflict."

"You cut yourself free as an incidental and..."

Couldn't the player attempt again (and again) until they get a light side result?

Yes, but they lose an action every time. If you're in structured time, it's probably because <DANGER!> so there's definitely a cost. If you're not in structured time, and there is no other clock ticking, and there's no consequence for failure, there's really no point in rolling...just assume the PC can do what the player wants them to do.

Using the Force still takes time. A character can keep trying over and over again but he may not always have the needed time to do the action. So long as the character has plenty of time then I don't even think you should bother with a roll. But in most instances where you are rolling you are likely in some kind of contested situation, whether it be combat or a social scene. You can keep standing there rolling Influence over and over again until you get what you want but odds are the guard you're trying to Jedi mind trick isn't going to just stand there and let you keep waving your fingers at him.

Thanks everyone. I was thinking time would be an issue, but its good to know that if time is no concern then let the PC's succeed at what they are attempting to do. I hate to say this, but its like "taking 20" in D&D 3.0.

Almost every game has the same rule really. 3rd Edition didn't exactly invent the concept. Granted I'm not sure why anyone would see "taking 20" or referencing 3rd Edition is a bad thing. It's a different game. That's it.

Thanks everyone. I was thinking time would be an issue, but its good to know that if time is no concern then let the PC's succeed at what they are attempting to do. I hate to say this, but its like "taking 20" in D&D 3.0.

It's more like "Why are you making them roll? What's the penalty if they fail?"

If they need to hack the blast door while taking fire from the Stormtroopers, the penalty is being overrun, captured or killed. The clock is running.

If they have to hack the blast door because some idiot locked the keys inside the hanger and the only thing at risk is their night out on the town, there's no penalty. Don't bother - narrate it and move on.

Force Power use is an action, unless stated otherwise, so you can always roll again next turn.

If the action is outside of structured turn play, I would narrate something that signifies (maybe some consequences) a turn has pass and he may attempt again.

I handle it as thus:

In unstructured time, a skill or Force power check result represents the best effort a character could accomplish at the time and under the circumstances. Yes the dice did not reveal the best results, but the character did - narratively speaking - the best they could.

For that reason, I do not allow them to retry unless circumstances have changed. This could be as easy as a fellow (N)PC giving them a pep talk (which I may ask for a check there too so they can apply boosts or setbacks appropriately), the character taking a break and collecting their thoughts, or simply trying a different approach; thus using a different skill.

Take Luke and his attempt to lift the X-Wing. Under my interpretation, Luke either failed to generate the necessary pips on his Force di©e, failed his discipline check, or both. GM Lucas declared that with all his might, Luke simply failed to lift the X-Wing. Now, Mark (the player that is playing Luke) knows he just did not get the necessary results, but his character Luke only knows that he tried his best and couldn't do it. Why would Luke try again if he knew he tried his best?

It's also important to remember we are not in structured time. So a single attempt could take minutes or hours to accomplish. One dice roll could (and in Qui-Gon's case, does) represent multiple narrative attempts, but only one check is made. This is similar to how an attack roll could represent a whole salvo of blaster shots, rather than 1 roll = 1 shot.

It's also important to remember we are not in structured time. So a single attempt could take minutes or hours to accomplish. One dice roll could (and in Qui-Gon's case, does) represent multiple narrative attempts, but only one check is made. This is similar to how an attack roll could represent a whole salvo of blaster shots, rather than 1 roll = 1 shot.

Agreed, though I might call it "dramatically structured". When failure has consequences of a long-term, character or story development nature, then the single roll should tell that story. It should have meaning. Luke gets one chance *mechanically* to see if he really understands "there is no try" and "size matters not". Failure doesn't leave room for a retry until it's dramatically appropriate.

I handle it as thus:

In unstructured time, a skill or Force power check result represents the best effort a character could accomplish at the time and under the circumstances. Yes the dice did not reveal the best results, but the character did - narratively speaking - the best they could.

For that reason, I do not allow them to retry unless circumstances have changed. This could be as easy as a fellow (N)PC giving them a pep talk (which I may ask for a check there too so they can apply boosts or setbacks appropriately), the character taking a break and collecting their thoughts, or simply trying a different approach; thus using a different skill.

Take Luke and his attempt to lift the X-Wing. Under my interpretation, Luke either failed to generate the necessary pips on his Force di©e, failed his discipline check, or both. GM Lucas declared that with all his might, Luke simply failed to lift the X-Wing. Now, Mark (the player that is playing Luke) knows he just did not get the necessary results, but his character Luke only knows that he tried his best and couldn't do it. Why would Luke try again if he knew he tried his best?

It's also important to remember we are not in structured time. So a single attempt could take minutes or hours to accomplish. One dice roll could (and in Qui-Gon's case, does) represent multiple narrative attempts, but only one check is made. This is similar to how an attack roll could represent a whole salvo of blaster shots, rather than 1 roll = 1 shot.

I'm not sure I agree with your Luke example. To me, based on the rules, he failed because he was not experienced enough yet (he did not have enough Strength upgrades in the Move power to move something the size of a ship). He is able to move rocks and R2-D2. Not bad for a beginner, as earlier in the movie he was only able to move a lightsaber. I'm not trying to argue as each GM can do their own thing, but I'll run it like "taking 20", and if its a time issue, then something like Rakaydos' example.

I handle it as thus:

In unstructured time, a skill or Force power check result represents the best effort a character could accomplish at the time and under the circumstances. Yes the dice did not reveal the best results, but the character did - narratively speaking - the best they could.

For that reason, I do not allow them to retry unless circumstances have changed. This could be as easy as a fellow (N)PC giving them a pep talk (which I may ask for a check there too so they can apply boosts or setbacks appropriately), the character taking a break and collecting their thoughts, or simply trying a different approach; thus using a different skill.

Take Luke and his attempt to lift the X-Wing. Under my interpretation, Luke either failed to generate the necessary pips on his Force di©e, failed his discipline check, or both. GM Lucas declared that with all his might, Luke simply failed to lift the X-Wing. Now, Mark (the player that is playing Luke) knows he just did not get the necessary results, but his character Luke only knows that he tried his best and couldn't do it. Why would Luke try again if he knew he tried his best?

It's also important to remember we are not in structured time. So a single attempt could take minutes or hours to accomplish. One dice roll could (and in Qui-Gon's case, does) represent multiple narrative attempts, but only one check is made. This is similar to how an attack roll could represent a whole salvo of blaster shots, rather than 1 roll = 1 shot.

I'm not sure I agree with your Luke example. To me, based on the rules, he failed because he was not experienced enough yet (he did not have enough Strength upgrades in the Move power to move something the size of a ship). He is able to move rocks and R2-D2. Not bad for a beginner, as earlier in the movie he was only able to move a lightsaber. I'm not trying to argue as each GM can do their own thing, but I'll run it like "taking 20", and if its a time issue, then something like Rakaydos' example.

keep in mind, Luke just hit FR2, and probably has a single strength upgrade. Yoda's telling him to keep rolling until he gets 4 light pips, and Luke doesnt have the patience.

Kaosoe gave a great answer.

I'll add to it a bit; PC's should not really be in a position of "Pass to proceed". That is a very Electronic game mentality. RPG's are a lot more flexible as I'm sure your aware. Also If they fail at a "I search the room" check then don't give them anything for standing around rolling over and over again until they succeed, just say "Your sure you checked everywhere" this also means having multiple ways of finding important McGuffins (Quest items).

As others have said, If there is no consequences for failure then don't bother asking them to roll, and that goes for all dice rolls (in any game!).

If they insist on attempting Force Powers until they succeed then do something like this:

First roll as normal.

Second roll ask for a Combined Discipline check (perhaps Normal difficulty) to represent keeping their emotions in control, use threat to give them strain.

Third roll upgrade the difficulty of the discipline check, with a Despair give them a conflict.

Forth and onwards keep upgrading difficulty.

Also apply setback for distracting stuff.

With a method like this (that the book sort of suggests) they will soon start considering the Dark Side pips a bit more often as they truly do become the easier option (less strain cost compared to 2 or 3 setback on a Discipline check)

There are only a few instinces where a force user should roll.

In training; you either succeed or you don't. There is no try. The character fails at that particular instance of the check and that signifies a passing in time. Which can be a couple of hours or greater which they can only attempt again after a long rest or a change in situation. Make it clear that this training occurs over a period of time which might conflict with other situations. Treat despairs as having worked at it for much longer then expected to achieve the result.

In time sensitive situations; combat, social checks, retrieving an item before the big bad whompa comes- all these are examples where a force user either doesn't have much time to prepare themselves and thus must do it now or fail. In the wompa situation, I would probably allow the wompa to attack Luke after a fail, to escalate the situation dramatically, with one lightside pip being turned to dark to represent a heated situation. After all, spending a destiny point to flip over a pip and gain a conflict isn't a step towards the darkside UNLESS that character makes it a step.

I add social checks to this because it's going to be fairly apparent that the subtle hand gestures which the character will be doing will eventually arose some suspicion. Thus they can only do it a exceedingly limited number of times even though the conversation may take minutes or hours; additional attempts should ramp up the stakes with an apposed check of some description, failure them finding that there is something very strange about this person, threat being them feeling unconfortable enough to not want to continue the talks and dispair either finding out (on a fail) or suspecting (on a success) that the person they spoke to might be a Jedi. Exactly how they react to that information is up to the NPC in question, but unless they are sympathetic to force sensitives in general, it's not gonna be a good result.

Yeah, at no point should the adventure be completely de-railed just because the PCs failed a check.

D&D 4e actually stressed this quite a bit with their skill challenge mechanic when it was introduced in the first Dungeon Master's Guide for that product line, namely that a failed skill challenge shouldn't bring the adventure to a halt but instead make things more difficult for the PCs.

In terms of activating Force powers, I'm generally of the mind that it's "one and done," especially if the PCs are under any kind of time constraint. The example of Luke failing to lift the X-Wing in ESB is a prime example; Luke's player simply didn't generate enough Force Points to affect a Silhouette 3 object, and the role-played it as Luke having a very defeatist attitude afterwards.

As noted above, if there's no time constraints and no real impact on the story... why is the PC rolling? Personally, I'd treat the attempt as generating 1 Force Point per Force die as their "best effort" and move on with the story. Yes, this means that a PC with Force Rating 1 isn't going to be able to accomplish a whole lot, but that's also the point of being Force Rating 1, in that the PC is a neophyte in terms of being able to utilize the Force. To again draw from ESB, while Luke could certainly feel the force, it was noted by both Ben and Yoda that he couldn't control it, which is where most Force and Destiny PCs are going to be for a number of sessions (the 'saber users are going to be further behind since most of those specs don't offer a chance to boost Force Rating).