Dash's pilot ability is optional. When is the window for declaring it?

Can I measure out a boost onto an obstacle, and then say, "I choose not to trigger Dash's ability" and take my boost back?

Do I declare at the start of the activation phase?

It's under card clarifications, page 6 of the FAQ:

When declaring a barrel roll or boost, Dash Rendar must choose whether or not to use his ability before measuring if he would overlap an obstacle.

Note that unless something has changed you must elect to use Dash's ability. This means that you say you are NOT going to use his ability and then check your boost; if you find the boost would be illegal you back up and declare something else. This "something else" could then be a Boost that is USING Dash's ability. I don't like that ruling but it seems to be what it is.

Yet another example of the following phenomenon: I often learn the most by reading questions that I never thought to ask, to say nothing of the answers to those questions.

This is why the professor means it when she says that there are no dumb questions, and that for every student that raises her hand there are likely five more with the same question...

Yet another example of the following phenomenon: I often learn the most by reading questions that I never thought to ask, to say nothing of the answers to those questions.

This is why the professor means it when she says that there are no dumb questions, and that for every student that raises her hand there are likely five more with the same question...

I've often said "Don't feel stupid for asking a question because I guarantee most of the class are thinking it." Which is essentially the same thing.

Yet another example of the following phenomenon: I often learn the most by reading questions that I never thought to ask, to say nothing of the answers to those questions.

This is why the professor means it when she says that there are no dumb questions, and that for every student that raises her hand there are likely five more with the same question...

A relation to that is that when you ask questions you may want to provide context.

Now X-Wing is relatively simple but sometimes the "how does Y work" is much better done by asking "how does Y work because I want to use it as part of X." I've seen it more in RPGs where someone asks a question about something specific but figuring out what they actually want to use that for leads to a much greater answer.

As a new guy whose first large ship foray is with Dash, I didn't even realize his ability is optional!

Related question: why on earth would you ever prefer NOT using his ability?

As a new guy whose first large ship foray is with Dash, I didn't even realize his ability is optional!

Related question: why on earth would you ever prefer NOT using his ability?

Well, I'm thinking that it's because if you are using his ability and your boost or barrel roll lands you on a rock, once you go to the combat phase you won't be able to attack. Normally when boosting or barrel-rolling, you're committed to the action as long as you 'fit' even if you realize you don't like your new position. When using Dash's ability, you always 'fit' and are therefore always committed. I assum the reason StevenO doesn't like the ruling on how this all plays out is because in a situation like this, you could attempt the boost or barrel roll without triggering Dash and if you don't 'fit' you have to take it back - but you get to see if you would prefer to be in that position. If so, once you're forced to take back the action, you could perform it again WITH Dash's ability triggered, knowing that you'll be in good position.

Clear as mud?

That's pretty much the reason I don't like the ruling.

To make things more interesting I'm thinking using his ability can be optional when performing actions. As in you use his ability, somewhat obviously, when you reveal your maneuver (no reason not to as you're going to land on anything anyway) but then does that mean it is still on when it is time to boost/roll off of the rock he landed on or does he get to pick NOT to use it when planning his escape to ensure that he can get somewhere his weapons work.

The sad thing is that I think FFG's measuring restrictions go too far.

I think it would be better if you had to choose at the start of the Activation phase and his ability's either on for the whole phase or not.

As a new guy whose first large ship foray is with Dash, I didn't even realize his ability is optional!

Any text that says you "may" do something makes it optional. Have a careful read of other cards and you'll find some more little gems there.

I think it would be better if you had to choose at the start of the Activation phase and his ability's either on for the whole phase or not.

This.

The ruling as it stands is just dumb, because you just turn off Dash's ability. If you land it, you're fine. If you hit the asteroid, well, oops, I guess you can't do that... But if I want to do it, and was just checking to see if I might need to boost off the rock (or if I'd be able to) I just declare the same action again.

But I can understand why they'd rule it like that - not the first time we've seen them make a weird ruling to try and improve the usage of an underpowered or under-represented pilot

Well, I overlooked the word "may" probably because my brain immediately locked in the idea that you would never do otherwise with that ability.

The newb also overlooked that Dash cannot fire if he lands on an asteroid (I don't think it's happened to me yet, though). I also wasn't recognizing that Dash's abilities would let him boost/barrel roll onto asteroids and bump other ships.I love the Rules Questions sections - I learn so much here.

I do understand, then. If I may speak my own ethical perspective in explaining my understanding, using barrel roll/boost with the ability "off" is like trying to acquire a target lock on someone obviously beyond range 3. It's permitted even if you're on opposite sides of the map, and in that facade one effectively 'cheats' at determining range and positioning, which can have a number of downstream advantages. In the same way trying a boost/barrel roll first with the ability off allows Dash's player to see if that gives him an arc dodge or bumps a ship so it can't shoot at him.

It does seem to boil down to that ethical perspective. And because it's legal, it becomes a moral divide, eh? I'm with the guys who say it should be on/off at beginning of activation. But then I have an overdeveloped sense of justice.

Well, I overlooked the word "may" probably because my brain immediately locked in the idea that you would never do otherwise with that ability.

The newb also overlooked that Dash cannot fire if he lands on an asteroid (I don't think it's happened to me yet, though). I also wasn't recognizing that Dash's abilities would let him boost/barrel roll onto asteroids and bump other ships.I love the Rules Questions sections - I learn so much here.

I do understand, then. If I may speak my own ethical perspective in explaining my understanding, using barrel roll/boost with the ability "off" is like trying to acquire a target lock on someone obviously beyond range 3. It's permitted even if you're on opposite sides of the map, and in that facade one effectively 'cheats' at determining range and positioning, which can have a number of downstream advantages. In the same way trying a boost/barrel roll first with the ability off allows Dash's player to see if that gives him an arc dodge or bumps a ship so it can't shoot at him.

It does seem to boil down to that ethical perspective. And because it's legal, it becomes a moral divide, eh? I'm with the guys who say it should be on/off at beginning of activation. But then I have an overdeveloped sense of justice.

It's interesting to me the way that people sometimes apply "an overdeveloped sense of justice" to this game.

Before I get too far into that, let me say that I believe strongly that the increasingly legalistic interpretation of morality in society is a major problem in the Western world - especially in the US. In my opinion, we are generally far more concerned with whether or not we can do something legally than whether or not we should do something morally. Tocqueville warned us of the danger of falling into this trap in a democratic society 150 years ago and it's shocking how accurate his warning has proved to be.

However, we're not talking about society, we're talking about a game. Ideally, what a player can and cannot do in a game are comprehensively delineated by The Rules of that game. The problem here seems to be sort of a corollary to Murphy's Law, and that with X-Wing being a relatively young game, so many game states have yet to be explicitly addressed in The Rules.

The fact is, nowhere is it (yet) written that a player may not attempt to measure range to a target that is "obviously" out of range, nor is it written that a player may not attempt to fit Dash into a space in which he will "obviously" not fit without activating his ability (note here the problem with defining in The Rules what constitutes "obviously," which leads me to believe that these issues may NEVER be explicitly addressed in The Rules). This is where the individual player's very subjective beliefs about what The Rules should be enter into the discussion.

So I offer a different interpretation by posing a question: how is it an injustice to play within the constraints of The (admittedly ambiguous) Rules?

StevenO seems to be suggesting that he thinks The Rules should be something different from what they are, that the game would be more fun for everyone. He is entitled to his belief and I'm not sure he's not correct in his assessment. I'm just pointing out that, in my interpretation, this isn't a question of justice/fairness/ethics, but rather one of what we all think the game should be. We are all allowed our on opinions on what the game should be, but someone else having a different opinion doesn't mean they're a "cheater" or otherwise dishonorable.

I certainly appreciate your position.

I feel strongly that it is a question of starting point of reference with regard to spirit of the law and letter of the law.

Where a game is concerned, the letter of the law is all that need apply.

Where society is concerned, we have to decide whether we want the letter to cover more broadly or more specifically (to a freakin game). Dash maneuvering and Target Lock measuring is beyond the letter. However, where objecting to the legal interpretation of a rule is concerned, there is no morality. There is only opinion. I object the the interpretation of the Target Lock rule (if you want to make a firm law that will end this 'shenanigan" then you write a rule which declares that if you are not in range of the attempted Target Lock, you use your action (or default to a focus, for example).

I am actually an excellent technical writer by profession. I could probably write excellent 'letter of the law' were I writing in Spanish. But English has been raped by every respectable language in Europe. And when you settle on the letter of the law in English, it's already too late...

I object the the interpretation of the Target Lock rule (if you want to make a firm law that will end this 'shenanigan" then you write a rule which declares that if you are not in range of the attempted Target Lock, you use your action (or default to a focus, for example).

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. In the absence of any such ruling, we're left to conclude either that the game developers think that you should be able to attempt to acquire a lock on a target that is clearly out of range while simultaneously getting the benefit of estimating range to other nearby targets, or else that they aren't overly concerned that you can get the benefit of that estimation.

It's just interesting to me where we draw the line between what is clever and what is unsportsmanlike.

I quote Palpatine: "Good is a point of view, Anakin"

For Clarity:

Rules reference, p7.

'If a player declares a boost action for his ship and cannot complete the action using the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely.'

Dash may not try a boost/barrel roll with the ability turned off, fail, then do the same boost/barrel with the ability turned on.

Note that unless something has changed you must elect to use Dash's ability. This means that you say you are NOT going to use his ability and then check your boost; if you find the boost would be illegal you back up and declare something else. This "something else" could then be a Boost that is USING Dash's ability. I don't like that ruling but it seems to be what it is.

For Clarity:

Rules reference, p7.

'If a player declares a boost action for his ship and cannot complete the action using the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely.'

Dash may not try a boost/barrel roll with the ability turned off, fail, then do the same boost/barrel with the ability turned on.

Seems to be a direct contradiction here, though I would suggest that Dash's ability necessarily complicates the core rules cited above.

StevenO, can you point us to the "ruling" you were referring to?

Cards override "core-rules", that's the point of them. Dash's card says, "may", he may use it, he may not. It's part of being the ace pilot that he is. Test away, I say!

Note that unless something has changed you must elect to use Dash's ability. This means that you say you are NOT going to use his ability and then check your boost; if you find the boost would be illegal you back up and declare something else. This "something else" could then be a Boost that is USING Dash's ability. I don't like that ruling but it seems to be what it is.

For Clarity:

Rules reference, p7.

'If a player declares a boost action for his ship and cannot complete the action using the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely.'

Dash may not try a boost/barrel roll with the ability turned off, fail, then do the same boost/barrel with the ability turned on.

Seems to be a direct contradiction here, though I would suggest that Dash's ability necessarily complicates the core rules cited above.

StevenO, can you point us to the "ruling" you were referring to?

It's really hard comparing a particular rule with a pilot who's ability is the exception to that rule. And as Pimpbacca said, the card text would override the core rule and if it's worded that he "may" do something, it becomes completely optional. In the FAQ it states Dash must choose whether or not he's using his ability when declaring a boost or barrel roll. And this is the particular shenanigan that most people don't like, because you can basically pre-measure with it. As I said further up, it would be better if you had to declare at the beginning of the Activation phase, and it stays on for the duration of that phase. But as it stands, people are abusing a loophole by doing what StevenO has said. Pre-measuring with the ability 'off' and then discovering it's going to be an illegal move, and thus gaining another option.

There's not too many loopholes within these rules, but this one is there and it does get abused, and there's nothing we can do about it as it stands.