If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

The bigger bulk you print, the more stock you have to sell. Stock sat in a warehouse costs more money in the long run, and doesn't return the money invested in its publication. Stock sat on a store shelf makes the store less likely to keep ordering (because the stock they've already bought hasn't been sold). Over-printing is detrimental to RPG publishers, because RPG publishers are small companies who live and die on consistent cash-flow.

Board games and miniatures games turn around far bigger numbers than RPGs. RPGs are a cottage industry, where even the biggest name in the industry (D&D) has an in-house team of four people, and 90% of the development work is outsourced to freelancers.

I'll quote some numbers from another industry example I've seen.

Let's take your average 400-page, full-colour hardcover - roughly comparable to the item you linked upthread. Let's further presume that it's a creator-owned IP, produced entirely in-house, so no licensing fees apply, and that it has no photographic interior illustrations, so it can get way with using non-premium ink and paper.

Right off the bat, it's going to cost you about $20 per book to manufacture the thing, once production, freight, warehousing, applicable taxes and other expenses are properly taken into consideration. It could be substantially cheaper if we were talking mass-market distribution, but a typical tabletop RPG (i.e., not one of the Big Three) will be fortunate to move a thousand units in its first year, so the economies of scale are limited.

That's just to produce the physical book, though. What does it cost to get there?

Well, there's writing, for one. For a 400-page manual, you're looking at about 120 000 words. A reasonable rate for this type of writing is $0.7-$0.8 per word, but the pay for RPG writing is notoriously now; let us assume we're paying a mere $0.03 per word. That's $3600 in writing costs.

There's also editing. A decent editor will easily run you $50 per hour. Presuming we're talking about mere copy-editing (i.e., no major structural editing is required), a 400-page RPG manual is about a sixty-hour job. That's $3000 in editing costs.

Let's not forget illustration, either. A book of this nature would be expected to have at least one illustration every 3-5 pages - let's call it an even 100 illustrations. Costs here are highly variable; a full-page, full-colour piece can easily run you $500 or more. Let's generously presume, however, that the average cost per illustration is only $50. That's $5000 in illustration costs.

Then there's the layout to put all this together. Layout for print is a much more complicated proposition than simply whacking everything into a Word document and calling it a day. As with illustration, the costs here are hugely variable depending on your level of ambition, but let's lowball graphic design and layout together at a mere $2000.

There's also a whole bucket of miscellaneous expenses, ranging from commercial font licenses, to ad banners and promotions, to playtester compensation (which typically comes in the form of food and free merchandise rather than cash, but it adds up), and so forth. Let's eyeball this at another $2000.

(Note that I'm valuing my own labour as project manager at essentially zero here. If I also wish to be compensated for the probable 500+ hours I've put into arranging all this, that's another expense - but lest I be accused of padding my own pockets, let's assume that I'm a deranged nerd who's willing to work for free.)

That's $15 600 in expenses, all told. Divide that out over the expected one thousand sales in the first year, and we've got $15.60 per book; on top of the $20.00 in production costs, that's a cool $35.60 per unit.

$35.60 per book. Those books will retail for $60 each, of which the distributor/retailer combo takes 40% (a low estimate here), so $24 of each copy never reaches the publisher. $36 left... so about 0.40c profit per book. $400 over all thousand copies.

And some of those estimates are low-end. Most smaller RPG publishers get by through consolidating jobs together - it's common for editing or layout, plus some of the writing to be done in-house by the guy who runs the company.

FFG makes a few economy of scale savings - they've got in-house staff for things like editing and layout (spread the cost across many projects), in-house project managers can write text as part of their salaried work, they're a noteworthy, successful brand who can more effectively negotiate with distributors, and they make things other than RPGs, so they've got a range of resources that don't fall into the costs of any single project (I imagine things like graphic design assets, fonts, etc for Star Wars are a collective resource for all Star Wars products FFG makes), which saves them money and makes it more profitable overall... but it's not going to make a colossal difference.

RPGs aren't something you do because you want to get rich. Even for the big companies, RPGs make pitiful amounts of money. Wizards of the Coast downscaled the D&D development team to a half-dozen people, and outsources the actual writing to freelancers, because with D&D, the intellectual property (the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the imagery and cultural cache, the movie rights, the novels, the computer games and board games, etc) is worth far more to Hasbro than the RPG itself is - they keep the RPG around because it'd be bad publicity to let the game go out of print when you're trying to make money off the IP.

If artists are underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry, it's because everybody is underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry... and that doesn't change without the retail price going up, because the margins are already tiny.

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

The bigger bulk you print, the more stock you have to sell. Stock sat in a warehouse costs more money in the long run, and doesn't return the money invested in its publication. Stock sat on a store shelf makes the store less likely to keep ordering (because the stock they've already bought hasn't been sold). Over-printing is detrimental to RPG publishers, because RPG publishers are small companies who live and die on consistent cash-flow.

Board games and miniatures games turn around far bigger numbers than RPGs. RPGs are a cottage industry, where even the biggest name in the industry (D&D) has an in-house team of four people, and 90% of the development work is outsourced to freelancers.

I'll quote some numbers from another industry example I've seen.

Let's take your average 400-page, full-colour hardcover - roughly comparable to the item you linked upthread. Let's further presume that it's a creator-owned IP, produced entirely in-house, so no licensing fees apply, and that it has no photographic interior illustrations, so it can get way with using non-premium ink and paper.

Right off the bat, it's going to cost you about $20 per book to manufacture the thing, once production, freight, warehousing, applicable taxes and other expenses are properly taken into consideration. It could be substantially cheaper if we were talking mass-market distribution, but a typical tabletop RPG (i.e., not one of the Big Three) will be fortunate to move a thousand units in its first year, so the economies of scale are limited.

That's just to produce the physical book, though. What does it cost to get there?

Well, there's writing, for one. For a 400-page manual, you're looking at about 120 000 words. A reasonable rate for this type of writing is $0.7-$0.8 per word, but the pay for RPG writing is notoriously now; let us assume we're paying a mere $0.03 per word. That's $3600 in writing costs.

There's also editing. A decent editor will easily run you $50 per hour. Presuming we're talking about mere copy-editing (i.e., no major structural editing is required), a 400-page RPG manual is about a sixty-hour job. That's $3000 in editing costs.

Let's not forget illustration, either. A book of this nature would be expected to have at least one illustration every 3-5 pages - let's call it an even 100 illustrations. Costs here are highly variable; a full-page, full-colour piece can easily run you $500 or more. Let's generously presume, however, that the average cost per illustration is only $50. That's $5000 in illustration costs.

Then there's the layout to put all this together. Layout for print is a much more complicated proposition than simply whacking everything into a Word document and calling it a day. As with illustration, the costs here are hugely variable depending on your level of ambition, but let's lowball graphic design and layout together at a mere $2000.

There's also a whole bucket of miscellaneous expenses, ranging from commercial font licenses, to ad banners and promotions, to playtester compensation (which typically comes in the form of food and free merchandise rather than cash, but it adds up), and so forth. Let's eyeball this at another $2000.

(Note that I'm valuing my own labour as project manager at essentially zero here. If I also wish to be compensated for the probable 500+ hours I've put into arranging all this, that's another expense - but lest I be accused of padding my own pockets, let's assume that I'm a deranged nerd who's willing to work for free.)

That's $15 600 in expenses, all told. Divide that out over the expected one thousand sales in the first year, and we've got $15.60 per book; on top of the $20.00 in production costs, that's a cool $35.60 per unit.

$35.60 per book. Those books will retail for $60 each, of which the distributor/retailer combo takes 40% (a low estimate here), so $24 of each copy never reaches the publisher. $36 left... so about 0.40c profit per book. $400 over all thousand copies.

And some of those estimates are low-end. Most smaller RPG publishers get by through consolidating jobs together - it's common for editing or layout, plus some of the writing to be done in-house by the guy who runs the company.

FFG makes a few economy of scale savings - they've got in-house staff for things like editing and layout (spread the cost across many projects), in-house project managers can write text as part of their salaried work, they're a noteworthy, successful brand who can more effectively negotiate with distributors, and they make things other than RPGs, so they've got a range of resources that don't fall into the costs of any single project (I imagine things like graphic design assets, fonts, etc for Star Wars are a collective resource for all Star Wars products FFG makes), which saves them money and makes it more profitable overall... but it's not going to make a colossal difference.

RPGs aren't something you do because you want to get rich. Even for the big companies, RPGs make pitiful amounts of money. Wizards of the Coast downscaled the D&D development team to a half-dozen people, and outsources the actual writing to freelancers, because with D&D, the intellectual property (the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the imagery and cultural cache, the movie rights, the novels, the computer games and board games, etc) is worth far more to Hasbro than the RPG itself is - they keep the RPG around because it'd be bad publicity to let the game go out of print when you're trying to make money off the IP.

If artists are underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry, it's because everybody is underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry... and that doesn't change without the retail price going up, because the margins are already tiny.

Well Said.

If artists are underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry, it's because everybody is underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry... and that doesn't change without the retail price going up, because the margins are already tiny.

Those numbers are off.

An artist doesn't have to go to school to be an 'Artist'.

It's like cooking. Some people have gone to school for it, others have gone to prestigious schools for it, others were self taught, others learned on the job.

The problems Mr. Bradley and others here are having are:

The cost of living is not universal

Some artists are part time

Some artists do it for the love of doodling.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that in western markets Artists should be willing to give their art away for nothing, What Is being suggested is that the Majority of Artist, Due to the over saturation of available artists, shouldn't go into it expecting to make a survivable living off of freelancing.

Or they need to learn to work fast. as $100 die 5 hours of work is an awesome wage. and $100 for 20 hours is not. FFG has no control over how fast you turn around your assignment.

This still does not guarantee the majority of artists a living from freelancing. The artist would not only have to produce work in 5 hours but be selling all of that same work every day. In the saturation level of people trying to sell their art, this isn't realistically feasible that you will have enough sell to make that wage, let alone make even a survivable living. Which is why most of the Artists out there are considered Hobbyist, doing it in the free time beyond a regular job.

Again a few things need to be cleared up here:

This is a very odd thread to me.

I know my company is looking at a 10% return of equity? Why? Because of the cost of capital. If you don't make that ROE, you should get out of the business.

If you believe this random person on the internet, and this really offends you..... then stop supporting FFG. It's that simple. You've made your point with this post, but FFG is a business. And not a big one.

My point was that I didn`t believe online gossip about FFG paying their artists next to nothing, you mean?

Of course I support talented artists` right to get paid for hard work. But looking at the FFG products I know FFG is spending good money on talented artists, if not, the books would look like crap. Also, they seem to be spending it smart and distributing the great art over several products.

You've made the wrong assumption: FFG doesn't need to be pay much to fill their books with good quality art. The worldwide suituation allows it the get decent art of for 100$ maybe even less.

You can call the article whiny or gossip, but the things stated in the article are valid points.

I know from a friend of mine ( Illustrator) who worked for them: You defintely get the 100$. Nothing to debate about it. Its the way they and other companys handle things. You can take this as a fact,

Also, those 100 $ are set. No negotiation. And I'm pretty sure they get all the rights to the artwork which means they can use it wherever and how often they want in as many products as they like. So there is no additional earnings if the artwork is used several times.

100 $ might be a decent amount if you live in asia or eastern europe. But it also means, that for artists based in the US or Europe (e.g.) Germany you will not make any profit if doing an Illustration for that price. So as an Artist, unless you are just trying to break in the industry, trying to get your first paid job or you are in desperate need of money and can't pay the rent, there is just no way to make any profit from this type of work.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that in western markets Artists should be willing to give their art away for nothing, What Is being suggested is that the Majority of Artist, Due to the over saturation of available artists, shouldn't go into it expecting to make a survivable living off of freelancing.

Or they need to learn to work fast. as $100 die 5 hours of work is an awesome wage. and $100 for 20 hours is not. FFG has no control over how fast you turn around your assignment.

You probably haven't done so much art I guess, and if you have probably not for contractors. So here is how it works in realtiy:

1 - You send in your portfolio or contact ffg and ask if they have some work for you

2 - They review your stuff and decide if the quality of your work and your style matches a certain project

3 - They come back to and offer you to do 4 Illustration for 100 $ per piece

You will get an assignment what your illustrations should depict. Depending on how capable the art-manager is this assignment can be very vague and maybe missleading or really precise and acurate. This already will affect how much time an illustration will take.In other fields though, where freelancers have a stronger standing,the freelancer will give an estimate for how much he will do the job, how many hours are required .how many revisions are granted etc. Sometimes freelancers have theier own contracts that the company needs to agree upon.

3a - Depending on how organized FFG is, the date of delivery can be in 1 month, in 2 weeks or (happens more often than not) ASAP!!!

If things need to be delivered quickly you of course are expeccted to make it happen. That can mean that you just have to crunch one or two nights to get the painitings done. That happens from time to time It's OK. That what outsourcing and freelancing is for. In some fields though, where freelancers have a stronger standing, the client is charged extra for crunch hours. Because in the end it's their fault for not scheduling theier art-production early enough. But not in RPG or Boardgame stuff. -- 100$ here you go!

3b - Depending on the company or the IP you are working they might deny you the right to even present the Artwork outside of their publication until the final product is relaesed or (in rare cases) ever. But this case is really not happening that often I think (at least in Boardgame, RPG Business)

if this applys as a freelancer you are ******, because for quite some time you can't even show your work in public to attract more contractors ("Hey guys, look I worked on a star wars IP"!!!). Again: IN other fields a freelancer will charge extra, if the client is denying him the right to use the work for his own portfolio.

4 - You deliver a first draft and the client is giving you feedback. With that feedback you do some changes and continue your work.

5 - You deliver the final Artwork,

depending on the client and the nature of the contract, your contract is fullfilled, 100 $ per illustration are yours! Yay! (in a perfect world)

BUT: Maybe a contract is not putting a limit on the amount of iterations a client can request from the freelancer. So more often than not, a client will jump in and require more iterations on the final artwork, because reasons. As an artist you don't want to piss of a future client and you still didn't see any money. So off we go....changing the final artwork (adjusting character pose, change lighting, you name it) Needless to say it takes much longer to do those requests. And Again: IN other fields a freelancer will grant you a certain amount of revisions: maybe 4. Revisions on final Artwork might be charged extra. As Both parties are considered professionals in theier fields the cleint can expect a freelancer to nail his idea in 4 iterations and the freelancer also is right to assume that the client is able to state his vision and reuirements with 4 revisions. (in a perfect world)

6 - You get your money, if your client was trustworthy and pays you. With larger companys you will not have much trouble here. Working for smaller clients... well if you are unlucky you might have some hassle until you get your payment

Also as an Artist you are in trouble, because you want your stuff to look as good as you can. Usually a tight budget would imply that time and thus the quality is limited for a piece. But as an artist you want your contractor to come back to you and if people later see your work, nobody cares if the budget was 100$ or 1000$ it judged by how awesome it looks. And most artist don't want to deliver less quality because it might fall back on them, that they might can't do any better. So usually you just put in those extra hours and give your ******* best and put in 5 extra hours instead the 5 hours the client paid for. And thats is the reason why the Artwork in FFG publications is a good as it is.

So from the above pipeline you can see that the amount of hours you have to put into an artwork is not onyl depending on the skill of the artist and how fast he can get things done. a poor written assignment might be misleading and thus result in many iterations and additional work hours on your end. The price pf 100 $ will stay the same. Waiting for feedback, from the artmanager although the clock is ticking and the work needs to be delivered tomorrow...

AND: talking about wages: You can asume any half decent illustration in color will take at minimum one day of work, And tha tis assuming that the above described pipeline is working flawlessly. Precise assignment, precise feedback, 1 or max. 2 iterations at an early stage. In general a freelancer will spend more time on contracted work, although he charges his client less.But as long as you can live from it no problem.

So one day per illustration makes 8 hours for 100 $ . As a freelancer you don't get those 100 $ . You have to deduct taxes, insurances. So in general the wage of a freelancer is higher than the wage of an internal employee, or at least it should be.

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

The bigger bulk you print, the more stock you have to sell. Stock sat in a warehouse costs more money in the long run, and doesn't return the money invested in its publication. Stock sat on a store shelf makes the store less likely to keep ordering (because the stock they've already bought hasn't been sold). Over-printing is detrimental to RPG publishers, because RPG publishers are small companies who live and die on consistent cash-flow.

Board games and miniatures games turn around far bigger numbers than RPGs. RPGs are a cottage industry, where even the biggest name in the industry (D&D) has an in-house team of four people, and 90% of the development work is outsourced to freelancers.

I'll quote some numbers from another industry example I've seen.

Let's take your average 400-page, full-colour hardcover - roughly comparable to the item you linked upthread. Let's further presume that it's a creator-owned IP, produced entirely in-house, so no licensing fees apply, and that it has no photographic interior illustrations, so it can get way with using non-premium ink and paper.

Right off the bat, it's going to cost you about $20 per book to manufacture the thing, once production, freight, warehousing, applicable taxes and other expenses are properly taken into consideration. It could be substantially cheaper if we were talking mass-market distribution, but a typical tabletop RPG (i.e., not one of the Big Three) will be fortunate to move a thousand units in its first year, so the economies of scale are limited.

That's just to produce the physical book, though. What does it cost to get there?

Well, there's writing, for one. For a 400-page manual, you're looking at about 120 000 words. A reasonable rate for this type of writing is $0.7-$0.8 per word, but the pay for RPG writing is notoriously now; let us assume we're paying a mere $0.03 per word. That's $3600 in writing costs.

There's also editing. A decent editor will easily run you $50 per hour. Presuming we're talking about mere copy-editing (i.e., no major structural editing is required), a 400-page RPG manual is about a sixty-hour job. That's $3000 in editing costs.

Let's not forget illustration, either. A book of this nature would be expected to have at least one illustration every 3-5 pages - let's call it an even 100 illustrations. Costs here are highly variable; a full-page, full-colour piece can easily run you $500 or more. Let's generously presume, however, that the average cost per illustration is only $50. That's $5000 in illustration costs.

Then there's the layout to put all this together. Layout for print is a much more complicated proposition than simply whacking everything into a Word document and calling it a day. As with illustration, the costs here are hugely variable depending on your level of ambition, but let's lowball graphic design and layout together at a mere $2000.

There's also a whole bucket of miscellaneous expenses, ranging from commercial font licenses, to ad banners and promotions, to playtester compensation (which typically comes in the form of food and free merchandise rather than cash, but it adds up), and so forth. Let's eyeball this at another $2000.

(Note that I'm valuing my own labour as project manager at essentially zero here. If I also wish to be compensated for the probable 500+ hours I've put into arranging all this, that's another expense - but lest I be accused of padding my own pockets, let's assume that I'm a deranged nerd who's willing to work for free.)

That's $15 600 in expenses, all told. Divide that out over the expected one thousand sales in the first year, and we've got $15.60 per book; on top of the $20.00 in production costs, that's a cool $35.60 per unit.

$35.60 per book. Those books will retail for $60 each, of which the distributor/retailer combo takes 40% (a low estimate here), so $24 of each copy never reaches the publisher. $36 left... so about 0.40c profit per book. $400 over all thousand copies.

And some of those estimates are low-end. Most smaller RPG publishers get by through consolidating jobs together - it's common for editing or layout, plus some of the writing to be done in-house by the guy who runs the company.

FFG makes a few economy of scale savings - they've got in-house staff for things like editing and layout (spread the cost across many projects), in-house project managers can write text as part of their salaried work, they're a noteworthy, successful brand who can more effectively negotiate with distributors, and they make things other than RPGs, so they've got a range of resources that don't fall into the costs of any single project (I imagine things like graphic design assets, fonts, etc for Star Wars are a collective resource for all Star Wars products FFG makes), which saves them money and makes it more profitable overall... but it's not going to make a colossal difference.

RPGs aren't something you do because you want to get rich. Even for the big companies, RPGs make pitiful amounts of money. Wizards of the Coast downscaled the D&D development team to a half-dozen people, and outsources the actual writing to freelancers, because with D&D, the intellectual property (the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the imagery and cultural cache, the movie rights, the novels, the computer games and board games, etc) is worth far more to Hasbro than the RPG itself is - they keep the RPG around because it'd be bad publicity to let the game go out of print when you're trying to make money off the IP.

If artists are underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry, it's because everybody is underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry... and that doesn't change without the retail price going up, because the margins are already tiny.

I don't know about this example calculation but for me this looks very flawed on both ends for the following reasons:

- the numbers might be acurate to procue a hardcover operation manual or something but not something that requires creative writing, gamedesign and all the iterations and adjustment that go with this kind of work.

- the production cost of a book (Rule book) are much higher

- for ffg and starwars you have to factor in a huge amount license-costs

- you have to pay inhouse designers to develop the game, this will probably take a few months and maybe 3-5 people to figure things out, Create ideas, prototypes, test those, adjust, iterate

when the base is set

- you have to add operational costs like, rent, electricity, and support staff at your headquarter

- you have to pay for software which can be really expensive

- marketing, conventions

- playtests

- The estimate for Art is not so far off, but still I would ratherg o for 10.000$

So I would say production costs are really far to low estimated. Thus the number of units sold must be considerable larger or pricesper unit much much higher or you aim for a return of investment within 2 or 3 years which also wouldn't make much sense.

But just for the LoLs we stick to the above numbers and your own calculation:

400 $ as a return of investment in one year by selling 1000 copies -- thats hillarious. Just to employ 3 inhouse gamedesigners to you need 100.000 $ per year. And FFG as an example is a publisher, they are not paid on a project basis to create a game, they are self-funded I guess, so they really need to have enough money to cover some ground. There is of course constant income, but some in this thread make it sound as if they are struggling to keep theier business running.

But one things is for sure: If you have a star wars license and on top of that Game of thrones, Warhammer and Lord of the rings, you are not a company in a niche market and youare definetly not barely break even.

Such large licenses are usually not just sold to highest bidder. Usually the IP Owners take a really close look at your company, they not onyl judge your productline and theier success up to now, they also want to be sure that your company is stable enough to survive several years and be able to release multiple product line with appropriate quality, support, marketing and everything. As a Starwars IP Owner you don't give the license to someone who is barely making it. How embarrassing it would be to see a potential licensee close its doors without finishing the agreed product line.

That said: You can be assured they are making good money with all the stuff they are making, And thats a cool thing. They are doing well. And thus it wouldn't hurt theier productline so much to increase the payout for artwork.

Just because you as a company are able to produce at lowest possible rates, doesn't make it a good thing to do.

The concept of outsourcing production to the underdeveloped countries and aiming for high profits in your local markets and paying your taxes somewhere else (Ireland, bahamas) will not lead to a healthy global economy. You can't expect people in your local market to buy highpriced products when theier wages and jobs are cut because production gets outsourced like crazy. There needs to be a balance.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that in western markets Artists should be willing to give their art away for nothing, What Is being suggested is that the Majority of Artist, Due to the over saturation of available artists, shouldn't go into it expecting to make a survivable living off of freelancing.

Or they need to learn to work fast. as $100 die 5 hours of work is an awesome wage. and $100 for 20 hours is not. FFG has no control over how fast you turn around your assignment.

This still does not guarantee the majority of artists a living from freelancing. The artist would not only have to produce work in 5 hours but be selling all of that same work every day. In the saturation level of people trying to sell their art, this isn't realistically feasible that you will have enough sell to make that wage, let alone make even a survivable living. Which is why most of the Artists out there are considered Hobbyist, doing it in the free time beyond a regular job.

No one is required to provide you a living. The only thing they are required to do is pay you a mutually agreed upon wage. If you do not agree to what they are offering walk away.

Again a few things need to be cleared up here:

This is a very odd thread to me.

I know my company is looking at a 10% return of equity? Why? Because of the cost of capital. If you don't make that ROE, you should get out of the business.

If you believe this random person on the internet, and this really offends you..... then stop supporting FFG. It's that simple. You've made your point with this post, but FFG is a business. And not a big one.

My point was that I didn`t believe online gossip about FFG paying their artists next to nothing, you mean?

Of course I support talented artists` right to get paid for hard work. But looking at the FFG products I know FFG is spending good money on talented artists, if not, the books would look like crap. Also, they seem to be spending it smart and distributing the great art over several products.

You've made the wrong assumption: FFG doesn't need to be pay much to fill their books with good quality art. The worldwide suituation allows it the get decent art of for 100$ maybe even less.

You can call the article whiny or gossip, but the things stated in the article are valid points.

I know from a friend of mine ( Illustrator) who worked for them: You defintely get the 100$. Nothing to debate about it. Its the way they and other companys handle things. You can take this as a fact,

Also, those 100 $ are set. No negotiation. And I'm pretty sure they get all the rights to the artwork which means they can use it wherever and how often they want in as many products as they like. So there is no additional earnings if the artwork is used several times.

100 $ might be a decent amount if you live in asia or eastern europe. But it also means, that for artists based in the US or Europe (e.g.) Germany you will not make any profit if doing an Illustration for that price. So as an Artist, unless you are just trying to break in the industry, trying to get your first paid job or you are in desperate need of money and can't pay the rent, there is just no way to make any profit from this type of work.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that in western markets Artists should be willing to give their art away for nothing, What Is being suggested is that the Majority of Artist, Due to the over saturation of available artists, shouldn't go into it expecting to make a survivable living off of freelancing.

Or they need to learn to work fast. as $100 die 5 hours of work is an awesome wage. and $100 for 20 hours is not. FFG has no control over how fast you turn around your assignment.

You probably haven't done so much art I guess, and if you have probably not for contractors. So here is how it works in realtiy:

1 - You send in your portfolio or contact ffg and ask if they have some work for you

2 - They review your stuff and decide if the quality of your work and your style matches a certain project

3 - They come back to and offer you to do 4 Illustration for 100 $ per piece

You will get an assignment what your illustrations should depict. Depending on how capable the art-manager is this assignment can be very vague and maybe missleading or really precise and acurate. This already will affect how much time an illustration will take.In other fields though, where freelancers have a stronger standing,the freelancer will give an estimate for how much he will do the job, how many hours are required .how many revisions are granted etc. Sometimes freelancers have theier own contracts that the company needs to agree upon.

3a - Depending on how organized FFG is, the date of delivery can be in 1 month, in 2 weeks or (happens more often than not) ASAP!!!

If things need to be delivered quickly you of course are expeccted to make it happen. That can mean that you just have to crunch one or two nights to get the painitings done. That happens from time to time It's OK. That what outsourcing and freelancing is for. In some fields though, where freelancers have a stronger standing, the client is charged extra for crunch hours. Because in the end it's their fault for not scheduling theier art-production early enough. But not in RPG or Boardgame stuff. -- 100$ here you go!

3b - Depending on the company or the IP you are working they might deny you the right to even present the Artwork outside of their publication until the final product is relaesed or (in rare cases) ever. But this case is really not happening that often I think (at least in Boardgame, RPG Business)

if this applys as a freelancer you are ******, because for quite some time you can't even show your work in public to attract more contractors ("Hey guys, look I worked on a star wars IP"!!!). Again: IN other fields a freelancer will charge extra, if the client is denying him the right to use the work for his own portfolio.

4 - You deliver a first draft and the client is giving you feedback. With that feedback you do some changes and continue your work.

5 - You deliver the final Artwork,

depending on the client and the nature of the contract, your contract is fullfilled, 100 $ per illustration are yours! Yay! (in a perfect world)

BUT: Maybe a contract is not putting a limit on the amount of iterations a client can request from the freelancer. So more often than not, a client will jump in and require more iterations on the final artwork, because reasons. As an artist you don't want to piss of a future client and you still didn't see any money. So off we go....changing the final artwork (adjusting character pose, change lighting, you name it) Needless to say it takes much longer to do those requests. And Again: IN other fields a freelancer will grant you a certain amount of revisions: maybe 4. Revisions on final Artwork might be charged extra. As Both parties are considered professionals in theier fields the cleint can expect a freelancer to nail his idea in 4 iterations and the freelancer also is right to assume that the client is able to state his vision and reuirements with 4 revisions. (in a perfect world)

6 - You get your money, if your client was trustworthy and pays you. With larger companys you will not have much trouble here. Working for smaller clients... well if you are unlucky you might have some hassle until you get your payment

Also as an Artist you are in trouble, because you want your stuff to look as good as you can. Usually a tight budget would imply that time and thus the quality is limited for a piece. But as an artist you want your contractor to come back to you and if people later see your work, nobody cares if the budget was 100$ or 1000$ it judged by how awesome it looks. And most artist don't want to deliver less quality because it might fall back on them, that they might can't do any better. So usually you just put in those extra hours and give your ******* best and put in 5 extra hours instead the 5 hours the client paid for. And thats is the reason why the Artwork in FFG publications is a good as it is.

So from the above pipeline you can see that the amount of hours you have to put into an artwork is not onyl depending on the skill of the artist and how fast he can get things done. a poor written assignment might be misleading and thus result in many iterations and additional work hours on your end. The price pf 100 $ will stay the same. Waiting for feedback, from the artmanager although the clock is ticking and the work needs to be delivered tomorrow...

AND: talking about wages: You can asume any half decent illustration in color will take at minimum one day of work, And tha tis assuming that the above described pipeline is working flawlessly. Precise assignment, precise feedback, 1 or max. 2 iterations at an early stage. In general a freelancer will spend more time on contracted work, although he charges his client less.But as long as you can live from it no problem.

So one day per illustration makes 8 hours for 100 $ . As a freelancer you don't get those 100 $ . You have to deduct taxes, insurances. So in general the wage of a freelancer is higher than the wage of an internal employee, or at least it should be.

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

The bigger bulk you print, the more stock you have to sell. Stock sat in a warehouse costs more money in the long run, and doesn't return the money invested in its publication. Stock sat on a store shelf makes the store less likely to keep ordering (because the stock they've already bought hasn't been sold). Over-printing is detrimental to RPG publishers, because RPG publishers are small companies who live and die on consistent cash-flow.

Board games and miniatures games turn around far bigger numbers than RPGs. RPGs are a cottage industry, where even the biggest name in the industry (D&D) has an in-house team of four people, and 90% of the development work is outsourced to freelancers.

I'll quote some numbers from another industry example I've seen.

Let's take your average 400-page, full-colour hardcover - roughly comparable to the item you linked upthread. Let's further presume that it's a creator-owned IP, produced entirely in-house, so no licensing fees apply, and that it has no photographic interior illustrations, so it can get way with using non-premium ink and paper.

Right off the bat, it's going to cost you about $20 per book to manufacture the thing, once production, freight, warehousing, applicable taxes and other expenses are properly taken into consideration. It could be substantially cheaper if we were talking mass-market distribution, but a typical tabletop RPG (i.e., not one of the Big Three) will be fortunate to move a thousand units in its first year, so the economies of scale are limited.

That's just to produce the physical book, though. What does it cost to get there?

Well, there's writing, for one. For a 400-page manual, you're looking at about 120 000 words. A reasonable rate for this type of writing is $0.7-$0.8 per word, but the pay for RPG writing is notoriously now; let us assume we're paying a mere $0.03 per word. That's $3600 in writing costs.

There's also editing. A decent editor will easily run you $50 per hour. Presuming we're talking about mere copy-editing (i.e., no major structural editing is required), a 400-page RPG manual is about a sixty-hour job. That's $3000 in editing costs.

Let's not forget illustration, either. A book of this nature would be expected to have at least one illustration every 3-5 pages - let's call it an even 100 illustrations. Costs here are highly variable; a full-page, full-colour piece can easily run you $500 or more. Let's generously presume, however, that the average cost per illustration is only $50. That's $5000 in illustration costs.

Then there's the layout to put all this together. Layout for print is a much more complicated proposition than simply whacking everything into a Word document and calling it a day. As with illustration, the costs here are hugely variable depending on your level of ambition, but let's lowball graphic design and layout together at a mere $2000.

There's also a whole bucket of miscellaneous expenses, ranging from commercial font licenses, to ad banners and promotions, to playtester compensation (which typically comes in the form of food and free merchandise rather than cash, but it adds up), and so forth. Let's eyeball this at another $2000.

(Note that I'm valuing my own labour as project manager at essentially zero here. If I also wish to be compensated for the probable 500+ hours I've put into arranging all this, that's another expense - but lest I be accused of padding my own pockets, let's assume that I'm a deranged nerd who's willing to work for free.)

That's $15 600 in expenses, all told. Divide that out over the expected one thousand sales in the first year, and we've got $15.60 per book; on top of the $20.00 in production costs, that's a cool $35.60 per unit.

$35.60 per book. Those books will retail for $60 each, of which the distributor/retailer combo takes 40% (a low estimate here), so $24 of each copy never reaches the publisher. $36 left... so about 0.40c profit per book. $400 over all thousand copies.

And some of those estimates are low-end. Most smaller RPG publishers get by through consolidating jobs together - it's common for editing or layout, plus some of the writing to be done in-house by the guy who runs the company.

FFG makes a few economy of scale savings - they've got in-house staff for things like editing and layout (spread the cost across many projects), in-house project managers can write text as part of their salaried work, they're a noteworthy, successful brand who can more effectively negotiate with distributors, and they make things other than RPGs, so they've got a range of resources that don't fall into the costs of any single project (I imagine things like graphic design assets, fonts, etc for Star Wars are a collective resource for all Star Wars products FFG makes), which saves them money and makes it more profitable overall... but it's not going to make a colossal difference.

RPGs aren't something you do because you want to get rich. Even for the big companies, RPGs make pitiful amounts of money. Wizards of the Coast downscaled the D&D development team to a half-dozen people, and outsources the actual writing to freelancers, because with D&D, the intellectual property (the name "Dungeons & Dragons", the imagery and cultural cache, the movie rights, the novels, the computer games and board games, etc) is worth far more to Hasbro than the RPG itself is - they keep the RPG around because it'd be bad publicity to let the game go out of print when you're trying to make money off the IP.

If artists are underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry, it's because everybody is underpaid and underappreciated in the RPG industry... and that doesn't change without the retail price going up, because the margins are already tiny.

I don't know about this example calculation but for me this looks very flawed on both ends for the following reasons:

- the numbers might be acurate to procue a hardcover operation manual or something but not something that requires creative writing, gamedesign and all the iterations and adjustment that go with this kind of work.

- the production cost of a book (Rule book) are much higher

- for ffg and starwars you have to factor in a huge amount license-costs

- you have to pay inhouse designers to develop the game, this will probably take a few months and maybe 3-5 people to figure things out, Create ideas, prototypes, test those, adjust, iterate

when the base is set

- you have to add operational costs like, rent, electricity, and support staff at your headquarter

- you have to pay for software which can be really expensive

- marketing, conventions

- playtests

- The estimate for Art is not so far off, but still I would ratherg o for 10.000$

So I would say production costs are really far to low estimated. Thus the number of units sold must be considerable larger or pricesper unit much much higher or you aim for a return of investment within 2 or 3 years which also wouldn't make much sense.

But just for the LoLs we stick to the above numbers and your own calculation:

400 $ as a return of investment in one year by selling 1000 copies -- thats hillarious. Just to employ 3 inhouse gamedesigners to you need 100.000 $ per year. And FFG as an example is a publisher, they are not paid on a project basis to create a game, they are self-funded I guess, so they really need to have enough money to cover some ground. There is of course constant income, but some in this thread make it sound as if they are struggling to keep theier business running.

But one things is for sure: If you have a star wars license and on top of that Game of thrones, Warhammer and Lord of the rings, you are not a company in a niche market and youare definetly not barely break even.

Such large licenses are usually not just sold to highest bidder. Usually the IP Owners take a really close look at your company, they not onyl judge your productline and theier success up to now, they also want to be sure that your company is stable enough to survive several years and be able to release multiple product line with appropriate quality, support, marketing and everything. As a Starwars IP Owner you don't give the license to someone who is barely making it. How embarrassing it would be to see a potential licensee close its doors without finishing the agreed product line.

That said: You can be assured they are making good money with all the stuff they are making, And thats a cool thing. They are doing well. And thus it wouldn't hurt theier productline so much to increase the payout for artwork.

Just because you as a company are able to produce at lowest possible rates, doesn't make it a good thing to do.

The concept of outsourcing production to the underdeveloped countries and aiming for high profits in your local markets and paying your taxes somewhere else (Ireland, bahamas) will not lead to a healthy global economy. You can't expect people in your local market to buy highpriced products when theier wages and jobs are cut because production gets outsourced like crazy. There needs to be a balance.

I have paid for art before. depending on the artist you can get a turn around in hours or weeks. some artists are incredibly fast. others not so much. The faster the turn around you have the better your hourly wage.

I don't care if there's no art at all in these books!!

Too soon?

I don't care if there's no art at all in these books!!

Too soon?

never... I always enjoy your posts.

- the numbers might be acurate to procue a hardcover operation manual or something but not something that requires creative writing, gamedesign and all the iterations and adjustment that go with this kind of work.

- the production cost of a book (Rule book) are much higher

- for ffg and starwars you have to factor in a huge amount license-costs

- you have to pay inhouse designers to develop the game, this will probably take a few months and maybe 3-5 people to figure things out, Create ideas, prototypes, test those, adjust, iterate

when the base is set

- you have to add operational costs like, rent, electricity, and support staff at your headquarter

- you have to pay for software which can be really expensive

- marketing, conventions

- playtests

- The estimate for Art is not so far off, but still I would ratherg o for 10.000$

So I would say production costs are really far to low estimated. Thus the number of units sold must be considerable larger or pricesper unit much much higher or you aim for a return of investment within 2 or 3 years which also wouldn't make much sense.

Nice of you to tell me that all of my practical experiences of working in the RPG industry for the last six years are incorrect. I'd never imagined how everything I've seen for more than half a decade could be so wrong.

RPG writing pays less than basically any other form of creative or technical writing. This is an established fact of the industry. You might believe that it's worth more, but that doesn't change that $0.03 a word is the industry-wide average (and many companies pay less). FFG pay slightly better than average for writers who've proven themselves. The pay is frankly awful, even from the companies that pay well. For most people, it's something you do in your spare time on top of a full-time job. All that development work... goes unpaid.

In-house designers are very, very rare. Freelancers are more commonplace. If you've got permanent staff, it's because you're big enough to be producing multiple product lines simultaneously.

Prototypes and iteration? All blended into the process. It doesn't happen as rigorously as you seem to believe, and it's typically done for free - the writer gets paid for the final edited wordcount, and that's all.

Operating costs? My boss worked out of his living room until recently. When most of the workforce is freelancers, "headquarters" is your home unless you've gotten reasonably successful. Paying for software often comes into freelancers' individual costs. Marketing... aside from a web page, RPG marketing is basically word-of-mouth and social media. Conventions are out of pocket expenses, though most companies use conventions as an opportunity to sell product to make the costs back and get some sales without the normal distribution costs. Every playtest I've ever been involved in has been free - playtesters don't get paid.

The unit quantities... RPG companies almost always aim low with print runs, because leftover stock sat in a warehouse is costly (both in the sense that it hasn't sold, and in the sense that you have to pay for the space it's being stored in). Mongoose Publishing sell a PDF that explains a lot of the costs and expenses of RPG publishing, but the average assumption for a sourcebook is about 900 copies sold in two months.

Most RPG companies make savings by having the person who owns the company do some of the work 'free' (business owner, rather than employee or contractor), normally writing, editing, and/or layout. Most RPG companies these days are aided by widespread adoption of PDFs as an alternative to hard copy, as it has no print, shipping, or storage costs, and places like DriveThruRPG don't take as big a cut as physical distribution channels. Direct sales help too, as it bypasses distribution and retail costs, but it's less "visible" because the customer needs to know about the product to look for it (as opposed to it being sat on a shelf to catch the eye).

Full-colour, large hardback books are expensive to produce, so they're most commonly produced by the larger companies who have developed an infrastructure that lets them save money. Remember, FFG aren't just producing a single rulebook, they're producing three lines of RPGs (smaller sourcebooks have different costs) and numerous board and card games, sharing art and design assets and in-house personnel between them. Smaller companies tend to favour smaller books - there's a reason that 128-page black and white softcover has been the dominant format for RPG books for so many years.

A licence gives the opportunity to sell more, at a cost - both monetary, and in terms of licence restrictions and an approvals process. Getting an RPG licence is a difficult matter - for most big licensors, the amount of money an RPG brings them is a rounding error. Consequently, RPGs are typically included in broader 'hobby games' licences (FFG has RPG rights for Star Wars because they've got miniatures games and card games rights, and RPGs are part of that package).

I don't care if there's no art at all in these books!!

Too soon?

You hear people say this from time to time. Some may even think it's true.

Nice of you to tell me that all of my practical experiences of working in the RPG industry for the last six years are incorrect. I'd never imagined how everything I've seen for more than half a decade could be so wrong.

RPG writing pays less than basically any other form of creative or technical writing. This is an established fact of the industry. You might believe that it's worth more, but that doesn't change that $0.03 a word is the industry-wide average (and many companies pay less). FFG pay slightly better than average for writers who've proven themselves. The pay is frankly awful, even from the companies that pay well. For most people, it's something you do in your spare time on top of a full-time job. All that development work... goes unpaid.

In-house designers are very, very rare. Freelancers are more commonplace. If you've got permanent staff, it's because you're big enough to be producing multiple product lines simultaneously.

Prototypes and iteration? All blended into the process. It doesn't happen as rigorously as you seem to believe, and it's typically done for free - the writer gets paid for the final edited wordcount, and that's all.

Operating costs? My boss worked out of his living room until recently. When most of the workforce is freelancers, "headquarters" is your home unless you've gotten reasonably successful. Paying for software often comes into freelancers' individual costs. Marketing... aside from a web page, RPG marketing is basically word-of-mouth and social media. Conventions are out of pocket expenses, though most companies use conventions as an opportunity to sell product to make the costs back and get some sales without the normal distribution costs. Every playtest I've ever been involved in has been free - playtesters don't get paid.

The unit quantities... RPG companies almost always aim low with print runs, because leftover stock sat in a warehouse is costly (both in the sense that it hasn't sold, and in the sense that you have to pay for the space it's being stored in). Mongoose Publishing sell a PDF that explains a lot of the costs and expenses of RPG publishing, but the average assumption for a sourcebook is about 900 copies sold in two months.

Most RPG companies make savings by having the person who owns the company do some of the work 'free' (business owner, rather than employee or contractor), normally writing, editing, and/or layout. Most RPG companies these days are aided by widespread adoption of PDFs as an alternative to hard copy, as it has no print, shipping, or storage costs, and places like DriveThruRPG don't take as big a cut as physical distribution channels. Direct sales help too, as it bypasses distribution and retail costs, but it's less "visible" because the customer needs to know about the product to look for it (as opposed to it being sat on a shelf to catch the eye).

Full-colour, large hardback books are expensive to produce, so they're most commonly produced by the larger companies who have developed an infrastructure that lets them save money. Remember, FFG aren't just producing a single rulebook, they're producing three lines of RPGs (smaller sourcebooks have different costs) and numerous board and card games, sharing art and design assets and in-house personnel between them. Smaller companies tend to favour smaller books - there's a reason that 128-page black and white softcover has been the dominant format for RPG books for so many years.

A licence gives the opportunity to sell more, at a cost - both monetary, and in terms of licence restrictions and an approvals process. Getting an RPG licence is a difficult matter - for most big licensors, the amount of money an RPG brings them is a rounding error. Consequently, RPGs are typically included in broader 'hobby games' licences (FFG has RPG rights for Star Wars because they've got miniatures games and card games rights, and RPGs are part of that package).

You just described what a small business looks like.

I don't care if there's no art at all in these books!!

Too soon?

You hear people say this from time to time. Some may even think it's true.

It is funny because she is blind. So in her case it is true. She can't see art.

Nice of you to tell me that all of my practical experiences of working in the RPG industry for the last six years are incorrect. I'd never imagined how everything I've seen for more than half a decade could be so wrong.

RPG writing pays less than basically any other form of creative or technical writing. This is an established fact of the industry. You might believe that it's worth more, but that doesn't change that $0.03 a word is the industry-wide average (and many companies pay less). FFG pay slightly better than average for writers who've proven themselves. The pay is frankly awful, even from the companies that pay well. For most people, it's something you do in your spare time on top of a full-time job. All that development work... goes unpaid.

In-house designers are very, very rare. Freelancers are more commonplace. If you've got permanent staff, it's because you're big enough to be producing multiple product lines simultaneously.

Prototypes and iteration? All blended into the process. It doesn't happen as rigorously as you seem to believe, and it's typically done for free - the writer gets paid for the final edited wordcount, and that's all.

Operating costs? My boss worked out of his living room until recently. When most of the workforce is freelancers, "headquarters" is your home unless you've gotten reasonably successful. Paying for software often comes into freelancers' individual costs. Marketing... aside from a web page, RPG marketing is basically word-of-mouth and social media. Conventions are out of pocket expenses, though most companies use conventions as an opportunity to sell product to make the costs back and get some sales without the normal distribution costs. Every playtest I've ever been involved in has been free - playtesters don't get paid.

The unit quantities... RPG companies almost always aim low with print runs, because leftover stock sat in a warehouse is costly (both in the sense that it hasn't sold, and in the sense that you have to pay for the space it's being stored in). Mongoose Publishing sell a PDF that explains a lot of the costs and expenses of RPG publishing, but the average assumption for a sourcebook is about 900 copies sold in two months.

Most RPG companies make savings by having the person who owns the company do some of the work 'free' (business owner, rather than employee or contractor), normally writing, editing, and/or layout. Most RPG companies these days are aided by widespread adoption of PDFs as an alternative to hard copy, as it has no print, shipping, or storage costs, and places like DriveThruRPG don't take as big a cut as physical distribution channels. Direct sales help too, as it bypasses distribution and retail costs, but it's less "visible" because the customer needs to know about the product to look for it (as opposed to it being sat on a shelf to catch the eye).

Full-colour, large hardback books are expensive to produce, so they're most commonly produced by the larger companies who have developed an infrastructure that lets them save money. Remember, FFG aren't just producing a single rulebook, they're producing three lines of RPGs (smaller sourcebooks have different costs) and numerous board and card games, sharing art and design assets and in-house personnel between them. Smaller companies tend to favour smaller books - there's a reason that 128-page black and white softcover has been the dominant format for RPG books for so many years.

A licence gives the opportunity to sell more, at a cost - both monetary, and in terms of licence restrictions and an approvals process. Getting an RPG licence is a difficult matter - for most big licensors, the amount of money an RPG brings them is a rounding error. Consequently, RPGs are typically included in broader 'hobby games' licences (FFG has RPG rights for Star Wars because they've got miniatures games and card games rights, and RPGs are part of that package).

You just described what a small business looks like.

Most RPG companies are small to medium companies.

>> It is funny because she is blind. So in her case it is true. She can't see art.

You just described what a small business looks like.

Most RPG companies are small to medium companies.

Duh?

I would mention captain and obvious, but it appears you have been promoted a couple times , lets go with Thanks Admiral Obvious

You just described what a small business looks like.

Most RPG companies are small to medium companies.

Duh?

I would mention captain and obvious, but it appears you have been promoted a couple times , lets go with Thanks Admiral Obvious

You are the one throwing around obvious statements. Called you on it.

You just described what a small business looks like.

I did indeed. Even the biggest RPG company is a small business, really. The biggest ones are typically the ones that make things other than RPGs and/or the ones which are simply divisions of bigger companies.

You just described what a small business looks like.

Most RPG companies are small to medium companies.

Duh?

I would mention captain and obvious, but it appears you have been promoted a couple times , lets go with Thanks Admiral Obvious

You are the one throwing around obvious statements. Called you on it.

Restating what I said is 'calling me on it'?

If so obvious why wasn't that mentioned for 160 odd posts?

You just described what a small business looks like.

Most RPG companies are small to medium companies.

Duh?

I would mention captain and obvious, but it appears you have been promoted a couple times , lets go with Thanks Admiral Obvious

You are the one throwing around obvious statements. Called you on it.

Restating what I said is 'calling me on it'?

If so obvious why wasn't that mentioned for 160 odd posts?

Because we all already know they are small businesses. As evidenced by the descriptions of the companies. We are a niche in a niche industry.

I really don't get what the big freaking deal is here.

Either you work for a $100 commission or you don't. It is your own choice either way.

Also, on top of that there is a huge gap between a non-related company asking you to do a piece for "free publicity" or an artist deeming work on an official Star Wars product worthy of his/her time for a small fee since this is the kind of exposure they are after. The starving artist schtick some of you are constantly playing (even when it is in relation to free fan made supplements) is getting real old real quick.

I write for a few industry magazines here in the Netherlands, however I GM for free, I write articles about my hobbies for free and I would write for this game for less pay than I would charge for my actual work. My choice.

>> It is funny because she is blind. So in her case it is true. She can't see art.

I can see and I could do without the art if it saved me $20 on a core book and $5 each on the rest.

Hmm, I guess I lie a bit more on the art-desiring side...a $20 savings on the CRB would make me hesitate, but I'd still probably go with the more expensive one to get the art...for the supplements, there's absolutely no way I'd trade away the art for the price of a beer.

That being said, being more technically minded, the only thing I really *need* the art for is a visual description of things that are statted out, and for any object (not a species), I'd much prefer schematic-style line drawings to a beautifully rendered action scene including the ships/weapons in question.

That being said, a few folks here have mentioned "the norm" for RPG companies: the 128 page paperback in monochrome...usually casting it in a negative light. Personally, I would *love it* if FFG decided to do a bunch of supplements in the tradition of the galaxy guides in exactly this format.It doesn't seem likely, though, as to this point, their business model seems to be build around giving everyone just a tiny bit of the stuff they really want in each book (as opposed to, say, a Startships book, a weapons book, a species compendium, etc.) and going with pretty high quality materials and construction..basically setting it up so that every book will be a must have for any serious player, and then if they're going to buy it, it's going to be a top of the line book.

I have absolutely no problem with that, so long as they maintain the current level of quality, pace of delivery, and actually take the license seriously (stick with it until we get all 18 career books at a minimum, and after that, come up with compelling ideas for further supplements).

Restating what I said is 'calling me on it'?

If so obvious why wasn't that mentioned for 160 odd posts?

Because we all already know they are small businesses. As evidenced by the descriptions of the companies. We are a niche in a niche industry.

then why are 'artists' complaning about not making fortune 500 money for?

I think it`s pretty easy to see which books have payed for quality art from experienced artists and which ones hasn`t. It looks like FFG has payed good money for good art

I don`t think FFG is disrespecting hardworking and talented artists, but I bet there are many other, less serious or more ignorant companies that do.

And of course this is a niche hobby, so noone is expecting indie products and lesser brands to have as great art or smaller publications to be able to pay as much.

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.