I personally quite enjoy the presence of art in these, or any other RPG, books. I'm a very visually oriented person and so having some form of image to work with helps me a lot. I have to admit, the art in the FFG books is superb and I could manage with a reasonably detailed black and white image to give me that simple frame of reference I look for but I do enjoy the excellent art they've included. I do hope the artists creating these images are getting reasonable compensation for the time and work they put into it.

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

/shrug

I guess at that point, I'm back to wondering why, if you've got it all figured out to the point that nothing anybody said would convince you otherwise anyway, you'd have bothered with a thread like this.

But I've got no desire to go down that rabbit hole again.

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

I am not sure why you keep going back to "Painting".

The Art presented could have been produced by several mediums, One of which is solely Digital.

A at least 1 of the mediums can be done by many artist quicker than any other. Digital is Quicker, as it is easier to modify and adjust as you go with the appropriate Software tools.

/shrug

I guess at that point, I'm back to wondering why, if you've got it all figured out to the point that nothing anybody said would convince you otherwise anyway, you'd have bothered with a thread like this.

But I've got no desire to go down that rabbit hole again.

Didn`t you get upset earlier because you thought I had changed my postion? And now your getting upset because you think I won`t change my position?

Is everything a potential fight? I don`t want to take part in that, so sorry if I have offended you on any way.

Noone has presented me with anything that proves this guy wrong or right, so I`m just saying what I think is likely from my point of view and experience.

I would like to be proven right or wrong with anything more tangible:) If it was presented, I missed it. But it seems to me a lot of people are just guessing.

Does anyone here know what FFG pays artitsts? As I said, I might be wrong, but let me still say what I think is likely when people keep saying FFG and this busines doesn`t have money enough to use on artitsts. Again, look at the art in the books...

Can they pay as much as other industries, probably not, but I do expect they are fair and pay enough concidering.

If they took advantage, I don`t think they would have so many great artists onboard!

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

I am not sure why you keep going back to "Painting".

The Art presented could have been produced by several mediums, One of which is solely Digital.

A at least 1 of the mediums can be done by many artist quicker than any other. Digital is Quicker, as it is easier to modify and adjust as you go with the appropriate Software tools.

I know, I am a digital artist. And what you see in the FFG books is called digital painting, it is done on a tablet using various software

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

RPG work doesn't pay much. It's rewarding, though, if you enjoy RPGs.

When I started freelancing, it wasn't my primary job - I wrote in my spare time alongside a full-time job. I now have a full-time job doing game development, but I could probably be making more money elsewhere. I write and develop RPGs because I enjoy it, and I'm lucky that it pays me enough to pay the bills.

It isn't always about the money. Would I like it if creative people in the RPG industry got paid more? Yes, certainly. But that's not why I do it, and I'm far from the minority. Sometimes, it's just cool to get to do something you love, to make a mark on the worlds of imagination you've loved for decades. It doesn't pay the bills as well as it should, but honestly, almost nothing pays the bills as well as it should these days.

And there is the fact that when the pie starts out small, none of the pieces are going to be very big. No one is being forced to do the work. If you want more money you probably should look elsewhere. But if you really enjoy the work and the cred for having your work in a book that you are proud to be a part of. RPGs are a good place to do that.

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

RPG work doesn't pay much. It's rewarding, though, if you enjoy RPGs.

When I started freelancing, it wasn't my primary job - I wrote in my spare time alongside a full-time job. I now have a full-time job doing game development, but I could probably be making more money elsewhere. I write and develop RPGs because I enjoy it, and I'm lucky that it pays me enough to pay the bills.

It isn't always about the money. Would I like it if creative people in the RPG industry got paid more? Yes, certainly. But that's not why I do it, and I'm far from the minority. Sometimes, it's just cool to get to do something you love, to make a mark on the worlds of imagination you've loved for decades. It doesn't pay the bills as well as it should, but honestly, almost nothing pays the bills as well as it should these days.

That`s awesome! Finaly some firsthand experience! What have you worked on? I would love to do something for a small company or indie publishing too, for not so much money. But I don`t think WOTC or FFG would waste their money on me, but if they did, I`d expect it was a fair price(concidering the industry of course) and they wouldn`t take advantage:)

My point all along is that I don`t think they take advantage and I think they are fair. Ok, so maybe they can`t pay as much as mainstream indstries, probably not, but would still give talented writers and artists a fair price I think. Maybe it varies, I don`t know.

When I sound very sure about something on the forums, I`m often just fishing for tangible facts:p... Hey, that should be my new signature!..

From the horse's mouth, my buddy, who has been in the industry 20+ years, the entire time as a freelancer. I gave him the reader's digest version of the blogger's post.

$100 from FFG is likely a piece of card art. Those were crappy rates when I was doing the Middle-Earth cards 20 years ago…cannot believe they still pay that now. Plus I only did my first batch at that rate, afterwards I demanded $200. There is a wave of young/new artists doing work for that rate (and it is work for hire, which means you own NONE of the copyrights to use/exploit later in your career), and doing tons of cards. I cannot see why they keep doing it…no other options? Book rates are BELOW what was standard 20 years ago. Typical beginning fee in 1995 was ~ $2500, with easy steps up to $5000. Now it is ~$2000 and rarely crosses over $4000 AND after 20 years of inflation. Beginning fees are more like the equivalent of $1500 back in 1995.

Commercial art is flooded from overseas artists and talent lurking in all kinds of geographic areas. Used to be you had to live in a major city or have connection in one to land jobs, now anyone can work from anywhere as a freelancer. That's the main reason fees are dropping, and will continue to drop. Every hobbyist can enter the market and grab a little slice. Loads of part timers in the field with fewer commissions going to regulars.

Magic: The Gathering could pay $100 a card if they wanted to, but they prefer to pay $1000 an image to keep their artists on a living wage. Strangely like life support. They can do that as the game makes a **** load of money and commissioned art is just a small fee now in the larger machine of the product of Magic cards. Some day Hasbro (who owns Magic) will be hit with sales, and those $1000 fees will drop. When that happens, the **** will hit the fan for the game industry as Magic is supporting a hoard of game artists.

In some ways I am glad to be out of that downward spiral, but I do miss connecting with the fans on another level.

My point all along is that I don`t think they take advantage and I think they are fair. Ok, so maybe they can`t pay as much as mainstream indstries, probably not, but would still give talented writers and artists a fair price I think. Maybe it varies, I don`t know.

When I sound very sure about something on the forums, I`m often just fishing for tangible facts:p... Hey, that should be my new signature!..

I agree. And it is not like they are holding a gun to anyone's head. Here is what we pay. Nothing says you have to accept that amount. And something a lot of people fail to recognize is that one can make a counter offer. I have done so many times and had prospective employers accept my counter offer. Companies often low ball you with the expectation that you will counter offer. And when you don't they are very happy.

Magic: The Gathering could pay $100 a card if they wanted to, but they prefer to pay $1000 an image to keep their artists on a living wage.

That’s how you get — and keep — the best artists in the business.

It’s almost a shame that I hate all card gathering games.

From the horse's mouth, my buddy, who has been in the industry 20+ years, the entire time as a freelancer. I gave him the reader's digest version of the blogger's post.

$100 from FFG is likely a piece of card art. Those were crappy rates when I was doing the Middle-Earth cards 20 years ago…cannot believe they still pay that now. Plus I only did my first batch at that rate, afterwards I demanded $200. There is a wave of young/new artists doing work for that rate (and it is work for hire, which means you own NONE of the copyrights to use/exploit later in your career), and doing tons of cards. I cannot see why they keep doing it…no other options? Book rates are BELOW what was standard 20 years ago. Typical beginning fee in 1995 was ~ $2500, with easy steps up to $5000. Now it is ~$2000 and rarely crosses over $4000 AND after 20 years of inflation. Beginning fees are more like the equivalent of $1500 back in 1995.

Commercial art is flooded from overseas artists and talent lurking in all kinds of geographic areas. Used to be you had to live in a major city or have connection in one to land jobs, now anyone can work from anywhere as a freelancer. That's the main reason fees are dropping, and will continue to drop. Every hobbyist can enter the market and grab a little slice. Loads of part timers in the field with fewer commissions going to regulars.

Magic: The Gathering could pay $100 a card if they wanted to, but they prefer to pay $1000 an image to keep their artists on a living wage. Strangely like life support. They can do that as the game makes a **** load of money and commissioned art is just a small fee now in the larger machine of the product of Magic cards. Some day Hasbro (who owns Magic) will be hit with sales, and those $1000 fees will drop. When that happens, the **** will hit the fan for the game industry as Magic is supporting a hoard of game artists.

In some ways I am glad to be out of that downward spiral, but I do miss connecting with the fans on another level.

Thank you, that`s very informative

So you're basically taking the point opposite the blog author with even less supporting evidence that he gave, simply because that's what you wish to believe?

That seems even less sensible, given that several people here have confirmed the premise of the blogger's position, if not his subjective evaluation of that information.

Hey, I could be wrong . Been wrong before, no biggie

But dude, look at that art! Do you know how much they would get for those pieces, doing book covers an other illustrative commercial work?

I work in the busines and it is so riculously unlikely that skilled and experienced artists would spend day and days on painting that without getting paid a fair price to do it.

$60 an hour and up is concidered normal pay for serious illustrators doing commercial work where I am from, private commissions is something different.

Commercial art and illustration work pays well when you can get the jobs, in my experience. Networking and getting enough work is the hard part of freelancing. I have never worked for an rpg, true, but looking at the standards and quality of the work in big and known rpg brand names like D&D and FFG, you can see they don`t skimp out on art. Lesser known names and brands can`t afford it to the same extent and that is very understandable If these great artists didn`t get paid enough, they would be doing something else and taking otther jobs. Why is there such a huge difference in the artwork we see in the bigger rpg companies than in the smaller ones? Likely because they spend a lot more on art, otherwise, all books would have great art! You get what you pay for.

RPG work doesn't pay much. It's rewarding, though, if you enjoy RPGs.

When I started freelancing, it wasn't my primary job - I wrote in my spare time alongside a full-time job. I now have a full-time job doing game development, but I could probably be making more money elsewhere. I write and develop RPGs because I enjoy it, and I'm lucky that it pays me enough to pay the bills.

It isn't always about the money. Would I like it if creative people in the RPG industry got paid more? Yes, certainly. But that's not why I do it, and I'm far from the minority. Sometimes, it's just cool to get to do something you love, to make a mark on the worlds of imagination you've loved for decades. It doesn't pay the bills as well as it should, but honestly, almost nothing pays the bills as well as it should these days.

That`s awesome! Finaly some firsthand experience! What have you worked on? I would love to do something for a small company or indie publishing too, for not so much money. But I don`t think WOTC or FFG would waste their money on me, but if they did, I`d expect it was a fair price(concidering the industry of course) and they wouldn`t take advantage:)

My signature lists everything I worked on for FFG, across the Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and Only War product lines. At present, I'm lead system developer for Modiphius Entertainment, overseeing rules design and development for all games using the 2D20 system (Mutant Chronicles 3rd edition, the RPG for Corvus Belli's Infinity, and Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of, plus John Carter of Mars when we start work on that).

I got the work for FFG because I was writing stuff for the 40kRPGs in my spare time and self-publishing my creations - I'd been a playtester for Dark Heresy when it was published by Black Industries, so I'd produced a well-received set of rules for Abhuman player characters that I released the same day the rulebook came out, and then I'd moved on to write a variety of other things. One of the project leads running 40kRP development at the time (Ross Watson) contacted me and offered me work, after which point I contributed to a long list of books from 2009 to 2012 (when personal issues meant that FFG and I parted ways).

This article covers the common per-word rates across the industry. FFG as of 2012, paid average to above-average rates for word-count, depending on experience and prior work (demonstrate quality, and they increase your rate quickly).

From the horse's mouth, my buddy, who has been in the industry 20+ years, the entire time as a freelancer. I gave him the reader's digest version of the blogger's post.

$100 from FFG is likely a piece of card art. Those were crappy rates when I was doing the Middle-Earth cards 20 years ago…cannot believe they still pay that now. Plus I only did my first batch at that rate, afterwards I demanded $200. There is a wave of young/new artists doing work for that rate (and it is work for hire, which means you own NONE of the copyrights to use/exploit later in your career), and doing tons of cards. I cannot see why they keep doing it…no other options? Book rates are BELOW what was standard 20 years ago. Typical beginning fee in 1995 was ~ $2500, with easy steps up to $5000. Now it is ~$2000 and rarely crosses over $4000 AND after 20 years of inflation. Beginning fees are more like the equivalent of $1500 back in 1995.

Commercial art is flooded from overseas artists and talent lurking in all kinds of geographic areas. Used to be you had to live in a major city or have connection in one to land jobs, now anyone can work from anywhere as a freelancer. That's the main reason fees are dropping, and will continue to drop. Every hobbyist can enter the market and grab a little slice. Loads of part timers in the field with fewer commissions going to regulars.

Magic: The Gathering could pay $100 a card if they wanted to, but they prefer to pay $1000 an image to keep their artists on a living wage. Strangely like life support. They can do that as the game makes a **** load of money and commissioned art is just a small fee now in the larger machine of the product of Magic cards. Some day Hasbro (who owns Magic) will be hit with sales, and those $1000 fees will drop. When that happens, the **** will hit the fan for the game industry as Magic is supporting a hoard of game artists.

In some ways I am glad to be out of that downward spiral, but I do miss connecting with the fans on another level.

Magic is an odd case. Magic the Gathering is the origin of the CCG - Wizards of the Coast get royalties on every other CCG in the market, because they own the patent on the concept, and their success and profits are massive compared to even the single biggest RPG in the world (Wizards of the Coast's other product, D&D - the reason D&D's design team now consists of four guys and a load of outsourced work is because Hasbro realised that they couldn't make MtG money from D&D)... and they're also in the longest period of sustained growth and expanding profits in the history of the game - year-on-year, the game is getting bigger and more successful.

That`s awesome! Finaly some firsthand experience!

Dude, have you not been reading your own thread? There have been quite a few people with firsthand experience speaking on the topic.

That`s awesome! Finaly some firsthand experience!

Dude, have you not been reading your own thread? There have been quite a few people with firsthand experience speaking on the topic.

Yea, you might be right. Guess I have to read it better then

Tsk, tsk...

Companies doing shady business to get ahead doesn't surprise me, and I'd never believe the FFG is exempt from that. It's normal, if sad.

That being said, while the article does make a valid point comparing artists and carpenters (about working for the love of it), it's only technically true; like most technically true things, it often doesn't work out that way in practice. I'm sure there are many artists willing to work for small amounts of pay only because they choose to. People are funny like that and do strange things.

What shady business. Do you offer more for your groceries than the drug store asks for?

Companies doing shady business to get ahead doesn't surprise me, and I'd never believe the FFG is exempt from that. It's normal, if sad.

That being said, while the article does make a valid point comparing artists and carpenters (about working for the love of it), it's only technically true; like most technically true things, it often doesn't work out that way in practice. I'm sure there are many artists willing to work for small amounts of pay only because they choose to. People are funny like that and do strange things.

What shady business. Do you offer more for your groceries than the drug store asks for?

Analogies are not often good for arguing, only for explaining when people don't grasp something. This is because usually something is lost in the analogy. In this case it is the replacement of an individual human with a generic business entity and the removal of lack of choice as a factor. For the first, we are naturally less sympathetic to a company (realistically a corporate chain these days) than we are to a human trying to earn a living wage. For the second, "asks for" doesn't imply "has to accept", which is closer. Obviously the latter has an unstated "or else..." attached to it, to pre-empt people who think it is omitted through ignorance.

To answer the question, no I do not do that for "the drug store". I will however pay a person more than I have to. That is a reasonable thing to do. If I see someone is struggling to make a living at their job, I wont use that to bargain them down to a price below what I myself consider fair. That is a choice I make and one I think is a Good thing to do.