Bottom line is you'll probably notice just like here in the US politicians on every side in one way or another are in some corporations hip pockets.

It exists, but not remotely at the same level. The US is off the chart compared to most everybody else in the 1st world.

Sure. Thats why France sells amphib assault ships to Egypt. Germany builds tank factories for Algeria. The UK royals host China's president to sign and cheer nuclear reactor construction. Norway's state owned oil company pens out developmentagreements with every oil rich turd hole in the world. Canada will sell Uranium and oil willy nilly. Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

I never said that. It's not about moral superiority, it's simply that there are structures in place in other countries to restrain (though, of course, can't eliminate) corruption that don't exist or have been removed from the US.

As for "the rest of us"...I'm a dual US-Canadian citizen. Most of my taxes go to the US government even while I live in Canada. So I pay attention.

Politics is a crapshoot and a complex issue and let's stop talking about it because this is about a game with laser swords in space. The villains have world death lasers, people.

...and an entire new supplement book specifically aimed at politician and diplomat type characters...

Now let's all let it die before this community gets another locked thread. It's been a good few weeks, guys -- let's leave it that way.

So...we should agree to stop discussion about anything that makes anyone uncomfortable...on a discussion board? Thus far, I think it's been a pretty enlightening (and lively) discussion that has stayed more or less reasonably civil. I'm not sure the call to action for everyone to stifle is warranted...

I give FFG a lot of credit for letting a thread like this ride.

Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

I never said that. It's not about moral superiority, it's simply that there are structures in place in other countries to restrain (though, of course, can't eliminate) corruption that don't exist or have been removed from the US.

As for "the rest of us"...I'm a dual US-Canadian citizen. Most of my taxes go to the US government even while I live in Canada. So I pay attention.

Oh sure, "we have structures in our country that prevent corruption" all the while all those same governments will sign contracts with countries that sure as hell are corrupt. I have a newsflash, if you do business with people that are crooked, you're crooked.

Politics is a crapshoot and a complex issue and let's stop talking about it because this is about a game with laser swords in space. The villains have world death lasers, people.

...and an entire new supplement book specifically aimed at politician and diplomat type characters...

Now let's all let it die before this community gets another locked thread. It's been a good few weeks, guys -- let's leave it that way.

So...we should agree to stop discussion about anything that makes anyone uncomfortable...on a discussion board? Thus far, I think it's been a pretty enlightening (and lively) discussion that has stayed more or less reasonably civil. I'm not sure the call to action for everyone to stifle is warranted...

I give FFG a lot of credit for letting a thread like this ride.

More my point is lately (well, a few weeks back) I've seen a few threads almost right in a row get locked because of unsportsmanlike behavior, and they were about much colder topics. You've actually been a pretty good natured commentator (what with some borderline insult comments thrown your way), but the entire thing has just the right mixture to explode. All it takes is one spark.

The subject doesn't make me uncomfortable, really, so much as I dislike how such discussions can end. And, to be fair, this is a discussion forum about a Star Wars RPG, not necessarily the company's business practices, the ethics of their business practices, whether or not those are fair practices for the market as a whole, or the politics behind enforcing policies that prevent unethical business practices. Discussion forum, yes; general discussion forum, not... quite.

(Also, soup, and Genesis, not Exodus.)

Fair 'nuff.

My earlierst forum experiences were in *very* good-natured and mostly self-policed communities that, while they avoided too much nastiness, they also tended to rehash the same stuff over and over and it seemed like group consensus was more important than an exchange of ideas (yawn fest). Since then, many fora have come and gone, some just that tame, others pretty savage. At this point, I guess I'm somewhat desensitized to the typical message board toe-stepping.

And thanks. I didn't really stop to think about it, but I guess they'd have to GO to Egypt before they could leave.

Bottom line is you'll probably notice just like here in the US politicians on every side in one way or another are in some corporations hip pockets.

It exists, but not remotely at the same level. The US is off the chart compared to most everybody else in the 1st world.

Sure. Thats why France sells amphib assault ships to Egypt. Germany builds tank factories for Algeria. The UK royals host China's president to sign and cheer nuclear reactor construction. Norway's state owned oil company pens out developmentagreements with every oil rich turd hole in the world. Canada will sell Uranium and oil willy nilly. Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

Hey, those are some really good points and important to take note of on an international scale! All governments are to blame, you are absolutely right.

However, I was talking about the internal politics of the country and the democratic system itself. How you have to register to vote, how lobbying isn`t just a legal part of the system, but what the entire system is built upon, how bureaucracy and captalism rules, how elections are more of a popularity contest than actual political issues, how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy. No power to the people when cash is king...

But ****, is it exighting to watch american politics from the outside! Actually very fascinating and fun

America is fascinating, a little weird and very awesome! Love you guys

Could this quasi-political debate be a campaign theme? It all starts out with a rumour that the Empire not paying Performers enough..

how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy

At the risk of coming across as a mite pedantic, strictly speaking, America is a democratic republic, not a strict democracy.

That being said, I'm not up on the political situations or histories of other countries, but throughout American history, it has been borne out time and again that the two party system is the equilibrium state of the American political landscape. Third (and fourth, and fifth) parties do occasionally rise up, usually as a result of one or both major parties not keeping up with changing social values, but after a decade or so of that kind of turmoil, typically, two of those parties emerge as the dominant forces somehow (either by assimilation or marginalization of the others), and the scene returns to a situation of two parties, more or less diametrically opposed to one another as a matter of general principle unto itself ("We are pro-this because the Otherpartians are anti-this.").

Could this quasi-political debate be a campaign theme? It all starts out with a rumour that the Empire not paying Performers enough..

Very true, the Empire is all about regulation. They regulate the importation and exportation of goods, outright ban certain goods on certain worlds and through special alliances with media outlets even control what ideas move between worlds. It seems logical that they would regulate wages and salaries. The conspiracy theory that the Empire is making it so performers and artists are making less than a livable wage could be true. If I were sitting on the Emperors Board of Economic Advisers I would advise that artists and performers get wages below livable so as to encourage them to get real jobs in factories so they could produce something the Empire could tax. Of course, I'm a big Empire supporter, I think that the people of Alderaan deserved to be blown up and I have a bumper sticker that says "Death Star, Never Forget!"

So the Republic being the bastion of all that is good we can figure that they wouldn't regulate wages because they wouldn't want to cram their ideas down the throats of its citizens. So a company that buys art would pay their artists as little as they can in order to make a profit without any government interference.... Oops... Maybe we are better under the Empire, as long as some jerk-wad in the Emperors Board of Economic Advisers doesn't have it in for your profession.

Bottom line is you'll probably notice just like here in the US politicians on every side in one way or another are in some corporations hip pockets.

It exists, but not remotely at the same level. The US is off the chart compared to most everybody else in the 1st world.

Sure. Thats why France sells amphib assault ships to Egypt. Germany builds tank factories for Algeria. The UK royals host China's president to sign and cheer nuclear reactor construction. Norway's state owned oil company pens out developmentagreements with every oil rich turd hole in the world. Canada will sell Uranium and oil willy nilly. Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

Hey, those are some really good points and important to take note of on an international scale! All governments are to blame, you are absolutely right.

However, I was talking about the internal politics of the country and the democratic system itself. How you have to register to vote, how lobbying isn`t just a legal part of the system, but what the entire system is built upon, how bureaucracy and captalism rules, how elections are more of a popularity contest than actual political issues, how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy. No power to the people when cash is king...

But ****, is it exighting to watch american politics from the outside! Actually very fascinating and fun

America is fascinating, a little weird and very awesome! Love you guys

Could this quasi-political debate be a campaign theme? It all starts out with a rumour that the Empire not paying Performers enough..

You think lobbying isn't part of the system, but how do nations that pride themselves on allegedly being so un-corrupt or whatever term you like end up falling over themselves to do business with every bad actor nation in the world?

Sorry, but my personal morals and principles don't end at the threshold of a my home's doorway, and if a nation does business overseas with those that are corrupt and oppressive, value systems at home in that nation are nothing but smoke and mirrors imo.

how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy

At the risk of coming across as a mite pedantic, strictly speaking, America is a democratic republic, not a strict democracy.

I'd argue we've become an Oligarchy, the bailouts of the banks seems proof of that...

Bottom line is you'll probably notice just like here in the US politicians on every side in one way or another are in some corporations hip pockets.

It exists, but not remotely at the same level. The US is off the chart compared to most everybody else in the 1st world.

Sure. Thats why France sells amphib assault ships to Egypt. Germany builds tank factories for Algeria. The UK royals host China's president to sign and cheer nuclear reactor construction. Norway's state owned oil company pens out developmentagreements with every oil rich turd hole in the world. Canada will sell Uranium and oil willy nilly. Spare me the the rest of us and our governments are so morally superior bull.

Hey, those are some really good points and important to take note of on an international scale! All governments are to blame, you are absolutely right.

However, I was talking about the internal politics of the country and the democratic system itself. How you have to register to vote, how lobbying isn`t just a legal part of the system, but what the entire system is built upon, how bureaucracy and captalism rules, how elections are more of a popularity contest than actual political issues, how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy. No power to the people when cash is king...

But ****, is it exighting to watch american politics from the outside! Actually very fascinating and fun

America is fascinating, a little weird and very awesome! Love you guys

Could this quasi-political debate be a campaign theme? It all starts out with a rumour that the Empire not paying Performers enough..

You think lobbying isn't part of the system, but how do nations that pride themselves on allegedly being so un-corrupt or whatever term you like end up falling over themselves to do business with every bad actor nation in the world?

Sorry, but my personal morals and principles don't end at the threshold of a my home's doorway, and if a nation does business overseas with those that are corrupt and oppressive, value systems at home in that nation are nothing but smoke and mirrors imo.

Because some people and politicians are jerks and douchebags here too, most of them are in government this term... There are rules of international conduct though, but I agree that some things just shouldn`t happen. That doesn`t change our internal democratic system though. Not saying it is perfect, but people are actually in charge, anyone can become a politician and they don`t need money to do it or to run for any elections and voters don`t know or care about a politician`s personal life, just what political issues and opinions they represent.

It`s no way near as exighting as American politics though :-/

Sorry, but my personal morals and principles don't end at the threshold of a my home's doorway, and if a nation does business overseas with those that are corrupt and oppressive, value systems at home in that nation are nothing but smoke and mirrors imo.

A friend of mine used to say "no one gets out of history smelling like a rose." He probably stole it, but I don't know where from...

how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy

At the risk of coming across as a mite pedantic, strictly speaking, America is a democratic republic, not a strict democracy.

That being said, I'm not up on the political situations or histories of other countries, but throughout American history, it has been borne out time and again that the two party system is the equilibrium state of the American political landscape. Third (and fourth, and fifth) parties do occasionally rise up, usually as a result of one or both major parties not keeping up with changing social values, but after a decade or so of that kind of turmoil, typically, two of those parties emerge as the dominant forces somehow (either by assimilation or marginalization of the others), and the scene returns to a situation of two parties, more or less diametrically opposed to one another as a matter of general principle unto itself ("We are pro-this because the Otherpartians are anti-this.").

First Past the Post voting is what causes the two party system to dominate:

I'd argue we've become an Oligarchy, the bailouts of the banks seems proof of that...

I’ve heard convincing arguments that there has never really been any other kind of long-term government that has ever existed. Dig deep enough, and every type of government that appears to be something else is actually an Oligarchy underneath — at least in the long term.

The question is, how benevolent or malevolent are those oligarchs?

how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy

At the risk of coming across as a mite pedantic, strictly speaking, America is a democratic republic, not a strict democracy.

I'd argue we've become an Oligarchy, the bailouts of the banks seems proof of that...

It's not the bailouts I mind, I get the mortgage insurance of a nation couldn't be allowed to collapse. It's the fact that after all the shenanigans of crooked bond valuation and bad lending is laid bare, no one gets prosecuted.

I haven't bothered to read through everything because there is just a lot of specilation going on. And I would like to clear a few things up:

1

I know from first hand experience that ffg is paying 100 $ for a full colorized painting. Not only for interior Art in Starwars, also illustrations for netrunner cards is payed like that. Cover illustration might be a bit higher. I know this because i pointed a fellow a fellow illustrator to submit his portfolio. Ffg got back to him and he was shocked when heraing about their rates. As it seems, as an artist you either take the deal or go home.

2

Ffg and many more board game companys can do so because, as already pointed out, in the digital age finding people capable of delivering illustration with a solid quality is extremely easy. there will always be someone who us just starting out and wants the foot in the door or really needs the money badly, is doing it for just being part of a starwars product. FFG is depending on those, and there is a infinite source of people who will just do 1 or 2 or 4 illustrations and at some point decide to just move on. There will always be eough talent out there that a company can fill its book with very good to mediocre art.

3

As a company FFG is taking advantage of this situation. While economicly a smart decision, not everything you can or are allowed to do is the right ir good thing to do. Seeing FFG as one of the large and successfull competitors, it's a shame that they don't take more than minimum responsibility for their contractors and basicly don't give a ****. But this not necessary behaviour for a company to be successfull. As a company you also have a certain obligation towards society at large, so if you decide you are cool to pay the lowest possible rates then it also says somehing about company culture as a whole. There are in deed companys out there who are paying much better, are smaller and still make good profit.

4

The argument that if FFG would not be able to afford more for illustrations or would have to reduce their numbers is just silly. Just an example: Suns of fortune has about 65 illustrations. Considering that most of them were done for 100$ you have 6500$. If we factor in that they might request more illustrations and some are not used in the final product and sone paid more because cover art or fullpage illustration, you can calculate with 8000$. This is dirt cheap. Considering the cashflow of a large company it is rediculous to asume they couldn't afford more. It just comes down to the willingness to cut a certain amount of your margin on each copy they are selling. And that comes down to company culture.

It us not that ffg is in a situation were it has to undercut prices from competitors.

5

Asuming that as an artist doing some underpaid art for FFG Starwars will lift your carreer is also not realistic. Yes, If you have delivered a good artwork in time they will come back for you. Over and over again they will ask if you will do some illustration for 100$. Again, company culture. They didn't care about the wellbeing of their contractors in the first place and they are not going to start just because you provided them the the 50th illustration.

As an artist the only benefit you have is: another piece for your portfilio. Yay. Some experience who you shouldn't work for and you can brush your ego with the fact that you have worked on starwars IP.

Many Artists try this at obe point in their carreer but at a certain point I guess most of them will just move on if they finalky have found clients that are in other fields than boardgaming.

In the long run you are better if investing your time in brushing up your own skills, finding other clients.

I have no idea what FFG pays for artwork, so no finger pointing here.

I have also noticed that their current business model involves using resources (art especially) across multiple products within a license. It's one of the reasons I think they are pursuing so many licenses and that certain products – Battlelore for example – have been redone using an existing brand (I have no insider info though, just observation). This is a great model and we have some awesome products because of it.

Therefore, I hope the artists are being compensated accordingly and not charged the same as someone making artwork for a single product. The rights involved should command a higher price.

At a conservative guess of selling 10,000 copies: $2 per book.

That's where you're probably wrong. Even a big RPG company like FFG is only a niche industry - these books aren't selling tens of thousands of copies.

how a two-party system of two fundamentaly quite similar parties are concidered real democracy

At the risk of coming across as a mite pedantic, strictly speaking, America is a democratic republic, not a strict democracy.

I'd argue we've become an Oligarchy, the bailouts of the banks seems proof of that...

You mean a Plutocracy? Rule by the rich.

Considering the cashflow of a large company it is rediculous to asume they couldn't afford more.

FFG is by no means a 'large company'. It's a big player in RPGs and board games, but that's a big player in a tiny pond - RPG companies are not rolling in money, FFG definitely aren't.

At least half the cost of a book ($60) goes to the distributor, and then you have to cover printing, freelancers (artists and writers), lay out, warehouse storage...

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

They pay artists so little for the simple fact that they can, other companies like AEG, white wolf, etc all pay similar rates..

the problem is good paying companies like Wizards, and cool or not mini don't hire as many artists and getting an in is all about who you know..

FF is a nice foot in the door if you can get some work from them but long run it really hurts.

Am I the only one that had a bizarre thought like, "Why are all these American and Western European artists trying to take these jobs away from hard-working Asian and Eastern European artists?"

If they're making more than $5-10 dollars per book profit, I'd be shocked.

The bigger bulk you print the cheaper it becomes and if printed in say places like china et.. even cheaper. Take the I-phone, it only costs a few dollars to actually make and sells for hundreds of dollars. FF Makes good money of their numerous product lines and they showed that in their one announcement(which I have no clue where the video is. The one from the big convention.)

Whilst not necessarily disagreeing with your point, the iPhone example you post is flawed. Manufacturing and materials costs are only part of it. There is an immense amount of R&D cost that has to be recouped from the initial investment as well. So it's not simply sale price minus manufacturing cost (and distribution and advertising to make people think they need it ).

Am I the only one that had a bizarre thought like, "Why are all these American and Western European artists trying to take these jobs away from hard-working Asian and Eastern European artists?"

I don't think they're saying give it to American artists, they're saying pay more to whoever you hire. And that's not arguing that this means less hiring of artists in this region because they're arguing that the "more" should come from the company's profits, not from reducing the amount of art commissioned.