Just my two cents, but I've always utterly dismissed any material from any video game aside from "pure fluff", or areas where it doesn't have to interface in any practical way with the established context at large.

While visually satisfying, a video game's number one priority is balance, fun, and rule of cool. In the more narrative context of the established lore (and the more "nuts & bolts" environment of a pen and paper RPG), there's no (okay...not as much) trumping need to have everything simplified down to arbitrary ratings, which must also cancel one another out to ensure "fairness".

Just my two cents, but I've always utterly dismissed any material from any video game aside from "pure fluff", or areas where it doesn't have to interface in any practical way with the established context at large.

While visually satisfying, a video game's number one priority is balance, fun, and rule of cool. In the more narrative context of the established lore (and the more "nuts & bolts" environment of a pen and paper RPG), there's no (okay...not as much) trumping need to have everything simplified down to arbitrary ratings, which must also cancel one another out to ensure "fairness".

That's true to a point, but you have to consider current canon (such as it is) to be the result of everything that's had its fingers in the pot to date. First came WEG (for the most part), then came a set of games that took WEG's information then codified and organized it. Many of the terms and relative performance assumptions we bank on today come from that transition. Armaments, ordinance, types of warheads, relative speeds (What the term? MGLT?), flight characteristics, etc. While RPGs may not be quite as codified as a video game, they are codified nonetheless. And most EU information uses the codified data from video games as a frame of reference. That's important in understanding how, say, the performance of the B-Wing (as represented in its RPG stats) compares to the performance of the Y-Wing. Therefore dismissing such information outright can be tricky.

And most EU information uses the codified data from video games as a frame of reference. That's important in understanding how, say, the performance of the B-Wing (as represented in its RPG stats) compares to the performance of the Y-Wing. Therefore dismissing such information outright can be tricky.

Actually in a lot of cases (especially earlier establishing EU) the info was taken right from WEG. Remember that WEG's fluff-heavy sourcebooks were essentially the only source of world-building type info appropriate for wide spread use by anyone working on a new Star Wars product at the time. The alternative was things like Caravan of Courage, Droids, and the occasionally bat-poop insane marvel comics. (And remember it was the 80's, so no internet, no wookieepedia. You wanted to reference something in Marvel's Star Wars #24, you better have that thing on your shelf.) So in that perspective, WEG was really the most accessible source for information on how the Star Wars galaxy worked.

I seem to recall an example where Timothy Zahn, when getting started on Heir to the Empire, was handed a pile of WEG sourcebooks by the lucasfilm rep and told to read up.

The video game claim is interesting, but if it were true, the B-wing would have 3 lasers, 3 ion cannons, and 2 torpedo launchers, and not have the gyroscopic cockpit, as that's how it's been represented in most video games due to practicality, technical and gameplay reasons....

And most EU information uses the codified data from video games as a frame of reference. That's important in understanding how, say, the performance of the B-Wing (as represented in its RPG stats) compares to the performance of the Y-Wing. Therefore dismissing such information outright can be tricky.

Actually in a lot of cases (especially earlier establishing EU) the info was taken right from WEG. Remember that WEG's fluff-heavy sourcebooks were essentially the only source of world-building type info appropriate for wide spread use by anyone working on a new Star Wars product at the time. The alternative was things like Caravan of Courage, Droids, and the occasionally bat-poop insane marvel comics. (And remember it was the 80's, so no internet, no wookieepedia. You wanted to reference something in Marvel's Star Wars #24, you better have that thing on your shelf.) So in that perspective, WEG was really the most accessible source for information on how the Star Wars galaxy worked.

I seem to recall an example where Timothy Zahn, when getting started on Heir to the Empire, was handed a pile of WEG sourcebooks by the lucasfilm rep and told to read up.

The video game claim is interesting, but if it were true, the B-wing would have 3 lasers, 3 ion cannons, and 2 torpedo launchers, and not have the gyroscopic cockpit, as that's how it's been represented in most video games due to practicality, technical and gameplay reasons....

Yes. That's exactly what I said. Some of the video games in the 90's (X-Wing, TIE Fighter, etc) largely drew from WEG materials. WEG established the more ambiguous RPG stats and the video games took that information and gave that data more definition. Yes, there were some concessions made for technical reasons (and the B-Wing is one of those cases), but I didn't say it was an absolute. I said it was a tricky affair to completely dismiss the video games as having informed much of the EU. Whether we like to accept it or not, much of the current EU does draw from video games, and that series of games specifically. I mean, look at the EU stuff invented in old video games that made it to canon. The Moldy Crow. The Missile Boat. The XG-1. The YT-2000. The YT-2400. The TIE Defender. To dismiss the video games (even beyond fluff) is just a tricky business.

And, yes. Zahn took much of what he used from WEG materials.

I like to imagine the Bulwark Cruiser was a one-of-a-kind prototype that was never mass produced because of some faults (or hijaking).

I always wanted to try to write the story of the test of the Bulwark, and the explanation as to why we never saw it again...

Man, i loved Star Wars Rebellion

WEG established the more ambiguous RPG stats and the video games took that information and gave that data more definition.

In my estimation, it happens the other way: WEG, kings of fluff and background info, produced some really well-thought-out material, which the video games then took and condensed, simplified, and in many cases outright altered, for the sake of game balance and looking cool. The video games really tend to dumb down all other aspects of gear into a very simple rating system just a bit more complex than an MtG card's a/b format.

To use an analogy, I'd say the WEG original material was the high-resolution image, and the video game version is the photoshopped, down-rezzed JPG designed to load quickly on a web page. At a distance, both look the same, and both really do the job they're intended to do pretty well, but upon close inspection there's no comparison as to the detail, so if you're really looking for the best source material for your own use, the former has far more information (and far more accuracy) than the latter.

I like to imagine the Bulwark Cruiser was a one-of-a-kind prototype that was never mass produced because of some faults (or hijaking).

I always wanted to try to write the story of the test of the Bulwark, and the explanation as to why we never saw it again...

Man, i loved Star Wars Rebellion

In Legends the Bulwark from Rebellion was actually the Bulwark III class with the Bulwark I and Bulwark II classes being CIS ships from the Clone Wars. I'm not sure how many Bulwark IIIs were produced but I know multiple Bulwark IIIs were still active during the Vong War because you see them in the Invasion comics set early in the Vong War..

Thread Necromancy

As a B-Wing fan I will note there is a legends version with two seats. The B-Wing/E had an extended cockpit with a gunners station, which would address the noted game system advantage the Y-Wing had due to having a gunner (multiple characters). There is also a reference to a two seat B-Wing/E2, which was intended as a military transport for important military leaders (like Ackbar). I like the idea of modding one.

Personally I think the B-Wing as represented in the core book is reasonable, it just takes a dedicated pilot to make the best use of it. Which I think fits for a specialised fighter like it.

Thread NecromancyAs a B-Wing fan I will note there is a legends version with two seats. The B-Wing/E had an extended cockpit with a gunners station, which would address the noted game system advantage the Y-Wing had due to having a gunner (multiple characters). There is also a reference to a two seat B-Wing/E2, which was intended as a military transport for important military leaders (like Ackbar). I like the idea of modding one.

I was just thinking about the B-Wing/E and how to implement it in-game. Supposedly it was faster and more durable, but less manoeuvrable. I'm not in front of the book right now so I'm not sure how this would effect the stats, but maybe add 2-3 points of Hull Trauma, reduce handling by 1 or 2, maybe bump speed up by 1. Rarity and price would also go up. I'm going to have to look into this properly later.

Personally I think the B-Wing as represented in the core book is reasonable, it just takes a dedicated pilot to make the best use of it. Which I think fits for a specialised fighter like it.

Thread NecromancyAs a B-Wing fan I will note there is a legends version with two seats. The B-Wing/E had an extended cockpit with a gunners station, which would address the noted game system advantage the Y-Wing had due to having a gunner (multiple characters). There is also a reference to a two seat B-Wing/E2, which was intended as a military transport for important military leaders (like Ackbar). I like the idea of modding one.

I was just thinking about the B-Wing/E and how to implement it in-game. Supposedly it was faster and more durable, but less manoeuvrable. I'm not in front of the book right now so I'm not sure how this would effect the stats, but maybe add 2-3 points of Hull Trauma, reduce handling by 1 or 2, maybe bump speed up by 1. Rarity and price would also go up. I'm going to have to look into this properly later.

I don't have any complaints about the RAW version of the B-Wing. When I referred to modding it, I meant the notion of pulling out its heavy lasers, replacing them with medium lasers, and dropping in an ECM suite, advanced comms, and nightshadow coating - turning it into a stealth bomber. Doing that to an B-Wing/E would also give you a ship that was well suited for inserting intelligence personnel, ferrying high-value dignitaries, and the like. With the rigger talents working in your favor, you might end up with handling zero and better system strain.

Actually, if you wanna spot the problem, it would be that unlike characters levelling, and some equipment being "for later" or "higher tiered"; (you know, the stuff rookies want to one day be assigned to) all starfighters were put on in the same "mooks in x-wings and mooks in TIEs have to be on the same level" pile.

So rather than Z-95s and TIE/LNs being starter crap you wanna trade up from, entire generations of obsoleted replacements and next-gen-barely-out-yet models were all put together on the same level, leading to the pathetic stats on things like the Defender, and the excessively upgrade-incompatible tendency in everything smaller than a transport.

However their rarity and cost did not change, leading to some very, very obvious "trap" choices here and there.

Combat system issues aside, the numbers would have been spread far more smoothly if -rather than all clumped at the bottom- some models had been something your character builds towards and hopes to get when it's time to play with the big boys; exactly the same idea for pilots and other vehicle users as making your way up to finally having that lightsaber when playing the force user classes.

Of course, that would require a rather fat errata table redefining all their stats...

Of course, that would require a rather fat errata table redefining all their stats...

Call it a second edition. During the public beta some (including me) were already complaining about the overpower of the Y-Wing, and the low granularity of the ship stats; the lack of granularity is even worse for Sil 2 vehicles.

Personally, I think Sils 2 & 3 should have been a separate scale from Sil 4+... the problem being that they tried to keep all the attributes in a rollable range... as in, everything is in the 0-6 range (including non-massive ship's Sil)...

I suspect early development may have looked much more like WEG than it does now - Opposed Speed+Pilot to change range bands, opposed Gunnery vs Piloting+maneuver to hit... no maneuver/action distinction, but +1 difficulty per action after the first.... and in such a context, the low granularity is of good utility...