Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Ackbar may be enough to tilt the scales where you may get away with 3-4 frigates and minimal satellite squadrons. I havn't faced him yet and he honestly scares the bahjesus out of me.

Ackbar is broken IMHO, you should be scared of him. The one thing with wave 2 is there are a lot of ships with 2 anti-squadron dice. Hell Glad IIs have them now on the Imperial side. I will probably play with some squadrons but I am not that worried about them. I have been a big advocate of squadrons from day one mainly because I love playing them. They have been and will still be a gambit in just about any build. The 5-6 rogue bomber squadrons are what you need to be afraid of but you wont see that too often since that means people need to buy 5-6 squadron packs.

Ackbar not broken. I have him where it was shot out only the side and give up two red and a blue for two red extra on the side shot. Unless you run a mc80 right between two ship. Or place the fighter on his nose. And he cant shoot them

Haven works like this:

"Oh, you want to bum-rush my poor frigate with bombers? Well tough ****, you gotta get through these aces."

and

"Oh, you want to get through these aces? Well tough ****, you need to deal 3 damage before you can even deal 1!"

it's a roving shield (fortress of "nope!") to put between you and anything you don't want near you

So basically you're saying its actually an insurance for your squadrons when you get ambushed?? Not a normal squadron offensive tool?

WHOA. Wait. I might try that idea.

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Ackbar may be enough to tilt the scales where you may get away with 3-4 frigates and minimal satellite squadrons. I havn't faced him yet and he honestly scares the bahjesus out of me.

Ackbar is broken IMHO, you should be scared of him. The one thing with wave 2 is there are a lot of ships with 2 anti-squadron dice. Hell Glad IIs have them now on the Imperial side. I will probably play with some squadrons but I am not that worried about them. I have been a big advocate of squadrons from day one mainly because I love playing them. They have been and will still be a gambit in just about any build. The 5-6 rogue bomber squadrons are what you need to be afraid of but you wont see that too often since that means people need to buy 5-6 squadron packs.

Ackbar not broken. I have him where it was shot out only the side and give up two red and a blue for two red extra on the side shot. Unless you run a mc80 right between two ship. Or place the fighter on his nose. And he cant shoot them

Trust me in the right hands I personally feel he is broken. I have seen and played half a dozen games played with him with different loadouts and 90% of the time he was wiping the board, he is outrageous. On an MC-80 he is debatable but on AFIIs with XI7s (and possibly MC-30s) with someone who knows how to fly them not much can withstand that much damage before you can get to them. I realize you can debate my skill and others who playing with and against but time will tell. I am confident I will be proven right after wave 2 comes out.

FWIW i agree with you Overdawg. Lots of people here saying you can take him out in time with fighters, but that just isn't matching the table results i'm seeing, day after day. I don't think i'd go as high as 90%, but he's winning at least a good 75% of games at both of my stores, against all types of Imperial lists (even our nationals level Imperial player keeps getting tabled).

Rebel vs Rebel is a different matter though, and Rebel bomber heavy lists seem to almost bring him to parity. He still has an edge, but B-Wings just hurt a lot more when used well.

You don't take AAA to shoot down squadrons alone. You take it to back up your own squadrons. A couple of 2-blue capitals supporting your fighters can really make the difference over a round or two of shooting. But BIG caveat: will they have the opportunity to fire those AAA shots or will they be busy shooting at enemy ships? In my experience it's often the latter.

I wont argue that driving right into squadrons without any squadron support isnt going to make you invulnerable to squadrons but if you play smart with proper navigation commands, positioning, and fast ships then against squadrons you can be more effective than you think with 2 antisquadron dice (at least from my experience). The key is to not let them get more than one round of shots at you while you double arc them and move past them to engage their carriers. The same level of finesse that it takes to play squadrons is what is required to hurt squadrons with anitsquadron dice. The flaw in my approach is if a player keeps their squadrons close to the capital ships but 90% of players dont do that.

The beefier wave 2 ships make this much more difficult but unless I see 4+ of them I wont be too worried.

FWIW i agree with you Overdawg. Lots of people here saying you can take him out in time with fighters, but that just isn't matching the table results i'm seeing, day after day. I don't think i'd go as high as 90%, but he's winning at least a good 75% of games at both of my stores, against all types of Imperial lists (even our nationals level Imperial player keeps getting tabled).

Rebel vs Rebel is a different matter though, and Rebel bomber heavy lists seem to almost bring him to parity. He still has an edge, but B-Wings just hurt a lot more when used well.

I guess the issue I have is that in terms of balance in wave 1 rebels had speed and great squadrons and imperials were slower and had staying power and crazy firepower. It made the game very "chess-like" and I loved that challenge on both sides. Now with Ackbar the balance on firepower has shifted to Rebels (not in dice totals alone) but in effectiveness of those dice. Being able to throw VSD level dice (6-7) at long range from AFIIs while side arcing and orbiting your opponent at up to speed 3 is too much of a power creep in my opinion.

In another post I suggested dropping Ackbar's cost down and either giving 1 red dice or 2 blue dice.

yo guys, this is about dealing with mass squadrons. Not ackbar, k thanks?

Also btw. ackbar red dice pretty good vs carriers. =)

Haven works like this:

"Oh, you want to bum-rush my poor frigate with bombers? Well tough ****, you gotta get through these aces."

and

"Oh, you want to get through these aces? Well tough ****, you need to deal 3 damage before you can even deal 1!"

it's a roving shield (fortress of "nope!") to put between you and anything you don't want near you

This is why i play rhymer. stay at medium range and draw out his fighters.

yo guys, this is about dealing with mass squadrons. Not ackbar, k thanks?

Also btw. ackbar red dice pretty good vs carriers. =)

Good point...sorry for the derail.

Can you not just use a whole bunch of TIE fighters? They are mathematically proven to be the most effective anti-squadron weapon in the game. Activate them with flight commanders and it just gets silly.

I would love to have advanced knowledge of an opponent going very fighter heavy. I'd dump a cheap VSD carrier with 5 TIE fighter squadrons right on his face and giggle while all the bombers die. 24 blue dice with 5 re-rolls is not to be trifled with...especially as you are speed 4 so you are pretty much guaranteed to strike first!

VSD2 + Wulff Yularen + expanded hangars + flight controller

Howl runner + 4x TIE fighter

(151 points)

Just remember to issue a squadron command first and bank the token so wulff can keep refreshing the squadron command token

To beat squadrons you just need to ignore them. Blow up the ships, and then you win the game. If your opponent has a lot of squadrons, then they probably have a low ship count. It should then be easy for you to save your activations and force your opponent to move all his ships first, then you blow up their ships.

Some ships swing the squadron war so wildly that you don't need to bring many to assert dominance

Gallant Haven is THE epitome of this, allowing Luke + Wedge + Dutch to routine beat off larger numbers of 6 dice interceptors while barely breaking a sweat

There's room enough @ 300 for paragon + haven + aces + cr-90a under Garm

I'll be honest - the range 1 requirement on the Gallant Haven title has kept me from ever trying it. I can only imaging bad things happening when moving an AFII in close to support fighters, sure the enemy bombers will be engaged, but #1 - my AFII has to keep on moving while the engaged fighter furball will be stationary for a turn or two at minimum, #2 this puts me closer to enemy ships - within blue or even black range.

I'll be honest - the range 1 requirement on the Gallant Haven title has kept me from ever trying it. I can only imaging bad things happening when moving an AFII in close to support fighters, sure the enemy bombers will be engaged, but #1 - my AFII has to keep on moving while the engaged fighter furball will be stationary for a turn or two at minimum, #2 this puts me closer to enemy ships - within blue or even black range.

I think the ideal use is defensive rather than aggressive - so long as the enemy is being aggressive and sending his squadrons out as a first wave, a Gallant-Haven-supported fighter screen should be able to beat more than their cost in enemy fighters, especially if you're using aces for Braces (rhyming!). It's also a good place to keep your squadrons safe until it's time to pounce them on enemy ships; you effectively can shepherd their HP until they're in a position where they're attacking rather than just being attacked. Flying the Gallant Haven in close to hang out very close to your bombers and the enemy ship is unnecessary and suicidal.

Some ships swing the squadron war so wildly that you don't need to bring many to assert dominance

Gallant Haven is THE epitome of this, allowing Luke + Wedge + Dutch to routine beat off larger numbers of 6 dice interceptors while barely breaking a sweat

There's room enough @ 300 for paragon + haven + aces + cr-90a under Garm

I'll be honest - the range 1 requirement on the Gallant Haven title has kept me from ever trying it. I can only imaging bad things happening when moving an AFII in close to support fighters, sure the enemy bombers will be engaged, but #1 - my AFII has to keep on moving while the engaged fighter furball will be stationary for a turn or two at minimum, #2 this puts me closer to enemy ships - within blue or even black range.

this is precisely why you don't move the Afmk2 in close to support fighters

it is a defensive barricade that runs along with your other broadside ships, not an offensive tool

one or two rounds of haven benefit are enough to break even the most dogged of enemy fighters (or at least delay them to the point of uselessness). Without enemy fighters, the title is useless but the aces remain aces with 3 black dice and a Luke amongst them

Can you not just use a whole bunch of TIE fighters? They are mathematically proven to be the most effective anti-squadron weapon in the game. Activate them with flight commanders and it just gets silly.

I would love to have advanced knowledge of an opponent going very fighter heavy. I'd dump a cheap VSD carrier with 5 TIE fighter squadrons right on his face and giggle while all the bombers die. 24 blue dice with 5 re-rolls is not to be trifled with...especially as you are speed 4 so you are pretty much guaranteed to strike first!

VSD2 + Wulff Yularen + expanded hangars + flight controller

Howl runner + 4x TIE fighter

(151 points)

Just remember to issue a squadron command first and bank the token so wulff can keep refreshing the squadron command token

Okay, who said that mathematically? I wanna see the math!

I would actually try this. =)

Though, I'd say that you probably could save 12 points for just a vsd 1.

How much damage do these get realy? =/

Is it up for the power of attacking Yavaris and 3Bs (raymus/expanded) all double tapping? Meaning killing off at least 2Bs on that first strike?

Yeah. One my of opponents basically will almost without fail take Yavaris and some squadrons... and recently its been a giant ball of squadrons. like 6 or so, up to 100 points.

To beat squadrons you just need to ignore them. Blow up the ships, and then you win the game. If your opponent has a lot of squadrons, then they probably have a low ship count. It should then be easy for you to save your activations and force your opponent to move all his ships first, then you blow up their ships.

I've heard this... I think it works against normal fighters, but serious Yavaris or just 4sq commands off a AF are some serious damage. Esp if they're reasonable and place their sqs close to the area you kind of have to move to.

I did do this once, but my fighter screen lasted only 1 turn and then the bombers started wailing on my ship.

I only won that due to some circumstantial better play and a little luck. That's not a good enough bet for me.

hmm, it depends

I am a huge proponent of Yavaris Bs as the easiest means of splattering squadron-less imperials like flies on a windshield, but I also don't take to the field with less than 3 ships

I don't think even the murderous prowess of double-tap Bs could keep three GSDs at bay long enough for the fleet to not get brutally slaughtered, but B-wings backed by some solid firepower (including a Paragon)...that's just murder

To beat squadrons you just need to ignore them. Blow up the ships, and then you win the game. If your opponent has a lot of squadrons, then they probably have a low ship count. It should then be easy for you to save your activations and force your opponent to move all his ships first, then you blow up their ships.

Ignore squadrons at your peril.

If this has been working for you, I strongly suspect your opponents simply haven't been that practiced with squadrons.

To beat squadrons you just need to ignore them. Blow up the ships, and then you win the game. If your opponent has a lot of squadrons, then they probably have a low ship count. It should then be easy for you to save your activations and force your opponent to move all his ships first, then you blow up their ships.

Ignore squadrons at your peril.

If this has been working for you, I strongly suspect your opponents simply haven't been that practiced with squadrons.

I cant do that in my meta. . . people who ignore my 3 B-Wings and 3 A wings end up dying because they strip the shileds for my attack and burn up those needed defense tokens.

But has Paragon any merit versus Rhymerballs?.. they can sit outside range one and bomb the AFII (Paragon)..

havent tried Paragon for the same reason. Any experiences?

got a question about AFs. Since we brought up that a 2 part prong conga line might be a better choice against squadrons... what are the other successful ways you've seen or considered running 3AF + (another ship)

Also, does anyone have formations for VGGG+ or IGGG other than, face them and run in?

Hm, I'm surprised noone has entered this yet, just some random thoughts about squadron capable all ship builds.

If you really want to go all ships, you could do this: Run ships with two blue anti squadron dice and certain upgrade slots;

Imperials: ISD-II, Raider-II (excepted due to good titles).

Rebels: AF-M2A, MC-80 Command cruiser

Upgrades:

Quad Laser turrets (50% chance of a hit every time you're attacked by a squadron. "what about Rhymer", read on!)

Cluster Bombs (four dice of 75% chance to damage each, with no possibility of mitigation)

Gunnery team (if possible)

The theory: So we've all been told ship AA is crap. In my opinion, it isnt -completely crap- when upgraded. This build is of course only useful in a squadron heavy meta, where you -know- your upgrades wont be wasted points. Dont be distracted by people saying "I'm happy if you shoot my squadron instead of my ship", they wont be if they've invested heavily (100pts or more) and you wipe that off the table.

Rhymer, deal with him by shooting him with AA and cluster bombing him as soon as he attacks. If he doesnt attack or the enemy doesnt have him, use on luke or another nasty ace. At the least, it'll keep rhymers own black dice off you every turn.

Everything else you shoot once or twice a turn with AA using a tight formation of ships. If they all have cluster bombs and quad lasers, you're hitting around 2.5 damage per turn and nuking a squadron/ace off the table per cluster bomb the first turn. Disengage a focused ship and move it away, forcing the squadrons to follow into more overlapping arcs if they want to keep hammering the same ship. Assess if you just want to play keep away with the enemy and wipe his squadrons for points, or if you can still kill a ship and want to stay fighting. Gunnery teams are nice for shooting a ship with that nice arc wide arc and then hitting all the squadrons out of the same arc.

Raiders can be nice, escorting an ISD they can sit behind it (offering the ISD for a target) and shoot a black die of AA without being in too much danger from the squadrons.

Edit: random additional thought, focus fire commands can help focus down key squadrons very quickly.

If you really want to go all ships, you could do this: Run ships with two blue anti squadron dice and certain upgrade slots......

The cost and opportunity cost of these may have to be considered.

Taking 60 points of toys to deal with squadrons does nothing if your opponent doesn't take squadrons.

At least if you take squadrons to deal with squadrons, then if your opponent doesn't take squadrons the points are not wasted.

that's why the Neb Escort > Gsd-2

you're paying points not for the anti-squadron, but for Squadron 2

hopefully, one day some imperial mad man will realize that GSD-1s have Squadron 2 and can issue the relevant command

would really help against the B-wings they keep dashing themselves against